Hinging and Clubface Motion HOW MUCH?
 

Ok . . . so if we are going through the Hinge Motions on say 2 feet back and 2 feet through, how much clubface roatation are we talking about? When you look at the Swingvisions the pro's don't really have the clubface moving around a whole lot.

If you just put the toe of the club on a wall and scrape it back and forth would the toe come off the wall on Horizontal Hinging?

First bit, about 8 degrees in Horizontal Hinging .
Second-Yes!

Vertical Plane Versus Inclined Plane
 

Assuming Dual Horizontal Hinging (10-10-D) or even Dual Vertical Hinging (10-10-E) or simply Angled Hinging (10-10-C), I agree wholeheartedly with Neil. The 'Dual' refers to one Plane of Motion for the Clubshaft (Inclined) and another for the Clubface (Horizontal or Vertical). In other words, whatever the Motion of the Clubface -- Close Only (Horizontal Hinging), Layback Only (Vertical Hinging) or Simultaneous Close and Layback (Anged Hinging) -- we assume an Inclined Plane of Motion of the Clubshaft, i.e., the Golf Stroke itself.

However, with a Putt or very short Chip Shot, the Clubhead can be made to cover the Line, thereby remaining in a Vertical Plane and thus ignoring the Inclined Plane. Then and only then will the Club continuously 'scrape the wall.'

Normally, though, the Club is swung on an Inclined Plane. Then, with the Ball located somewhat back of the normal Low Point, i.e., opposite the Left Shoulder, the Clubhead will 'scrape' very little a vertical wall in Start Up. Instead, it will move Up, Back and In immediately on an inclined wall. In so doing, it will always point at -- but not cover! -- its Straight Line Base Line (Plane Line).

Then, having merely scraped the wallboard momentarily in Start Up, the Clubhead will obliterate it as it moves Down, Out and Forward through Impact and Low Point during the Follow-Through.

My answer -- an answer.

Yodas' answer - THE WORKS. :eyes:

Bossman . . . TOTALLY with you on the Inclined Plane deal. I must clarify my wall example which is for obvious reasons a poor one with regards to golf being played on an inclined plane. Let us forget about walls and planes for a sec . . . . assuming we have a clubhead that is on plane (thus tracing a straight plane line) how much clubface motion could we expect with horizontal hinging for say 12 inches prior to impact point and 12 inches after separation? I'm thinking that maybe people have the clubface rotating TOO MUCH when using horizontal hinging (swivel vs. hinging).

Take a look at these clubfaces . . . What are we seeing? Can we make a statement about what hinge action we are seeing with these? These clubfaces seem to be pretty "quiet" to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDgoxxJD8h4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCw-...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Mlhx...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXSw8...elated&search=

New Paradigm
 

Now you tell me! :eyes:

:)

Hinge Action Is Not Swivel Action
 

Swingers typically execute Release as Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A). In other words, from Release to Impact, the Left Wrist executes an Uncock and Roll.

This Release Roll is a true Swivel -- independent Wrist Motion -- from Release to Impact. This is followed by a Hinge Action 'Roll' (the Left Wrist simply remaining vertical to one of the three associated Planes) from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position).

For a given Clubface executing Horizontal Hinge Action (Closing Only) about a constant Pivot Swing Center -- there can be only so many finite degrees of travel.

Sorry about changing the rules on you :golfcart:

This may be a better dealie . . .

I just took a club and held it against the door. Opened and closed the door 2 feet back 2 feet through . . . This would certainly qualify as Horizontal Hinging no? There ain't a whole lot of action going on with that clubface. It is closing without question. BUT the toe ain't slammin' shut like a screen door in a trailer park during a tornado.

At least for me that was an education . . . My version of Horizontal Hinging was FOR SURE Swivel and add a Turned Left Hand to the mix . . . I'm deeeeeeep in the woods where the elephants go to die.

Bucket ,the door is reflecting the hinge action -but not on an inclined plane:scratch:
But the closing only motion is the same.It's got to close from "on plane" at the start of release,to square at separation -so depending how late you release,it may have to close 90* in -say-4 feet. 22.5* per foot!

I may be misunderstanding your intent, but as long as the screen door is installed on hinges, the "clubface" or door motion is still the exact same.
Same action of the clubface, but at a different rate of speed (therefore, no "timing" of clubface closing - no matter your rate of speed). Push a door as hard as you want, it will still line up exactly with the frame (at some point along its journey).

As far as how much clubface rotation, the amount will be perfect every time if you take care of proper alignment and physics, (that is FLW held vertical to the related basic plane (a condition) and orbiting arms and/or torso) and also if you just know that hinging is not idependent wrist rotation. So this might say, if worried about executing a swivel instead of hinging, feel what the arms and torso are torso are doing - only orbiting, no effort towards any independent wrist rotation.

Check out the Swingvisions. Pay attention to the end of each one where the isolate the club. The toe of those clubs is certainly closing . . . but the rate of closing is VERY SMALL.

Per 2-G, Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot – the Club at about 45 degrees. With Horizontal Hinging, the toe of the Club will point along the Plane Line

My misunderstanding I think was that the toe ALWAYS pointed along the plane line thus causing an over-roll and fast rate of closing. So the key is it points along the plane line when you stop the clubshaft at 45 DEGREES

By strict definition Hinging is only from the point of impact to separation . . . so I would say that it is pretty difficult to distinguish what hinge motion a player is using. Again at some small distance the club is moving pretty much in a straight line . . . and for that small distance there is I would surmise very little difference in the amount of CLOSING for Horizontal Hinging and Angled Hinging. I would say that you have a better chance of distinguishing the Hinge Action by looking at LAYBACK rather than closing.

There are some pictures of Vijay where he looks to be executing Swivel through Impact rather than Hinge Motion.

So maybe this experiment is flawed but if you take the toe of your club and place it against a wall and scrape for 12 inches back and through . . . . the toe doesn't move all that much in differentiating the Hinge Motions for that 12 inch span . . . which IS where the rubber meets the road. Or if you don't like the wall experiment . . . do it on a low bench as Homer advised. The rotation about the sweetspot ain't all that much . . . I don't think.

Release Roll Identities
 

Assuming Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A), the Clubface Closing Action from Release to Impact is a Swivel Action, i.e., the Turned Left Wrist returning to its Vertical alignment for Impact. Only from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through is there a Hinge Action, i.e., the Left Wrist remaining in its Vertical alignment to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled).

My post was to say that the club will automatically achieve the above postion with proper alignments and physics. No need to think " I'm going to use horizontal hinging, so I need to make the clubface point along the plane line at some point." Rather think, FLW held in condition vertical to related basic plane and orbiting arms/ and or torso. Absolutely no concern for "rate" of closesure for clubface alignment. With proper hinging, varying closure rate will only effect the distance the ball travels (no matter what the speed, clubface will still be in the same position at impact and separation with proper hinging - meaning same relative postion for two different speeds; not that the clubface has the same position at impact and separation).

I have no idea, but I wouldn't doubt that a lot of pros might execute swivels through impact ( and they can "time" the action really well, or they hit a bad shot). And then you have golfers who have always executed swivels through impact, with inconsistent results. And then they might come to a "half truth" realization to "take the hands out of the swing and use body rotation" - see Nick Faldo.

With proper hinge action, toe closure "is what it is", very precise and exact, no degrees of (just rides the installed hinge). To be picky, I don't know about labeling "it isn't that much." Because there certainly is closure. But certainly less than if one executes a swivel through impact (which is what I think your correct point is).

I'm with you on all of this. But as you say the FIRST thing is the proper UNDERSTANDING. Most of the pros have no clue from a conceptual standpoint about Hinging. Their instincts are amazing for sure. But if you have a chance to look at those Swingvisions and any that are out there. Typically the clubface is pretty "stable" through the ball. There is some closing but there is not a great deal of closing.

I'd say if you compared the clubface motion of the average golfer (and even more with a golf that has throwaway), you'd probably see a great deal of "wobble" in the clubface that you wouldn't see in a pro's motion.

Check out those swingvisions I posted. I'd like to hear your description of what is going on and what you are seeing. I'm not trying to be a pain'n'da'azz just trying to figure this stuff out. Many people say that Jim Furyck is a Vertical Hinge guy . . . I'm not so sure that we can say that definitively. I'll try to find a swingvision for him too.

To Roll Or Not To Roll
 

Remember, you're nearing the bottom of a circle with a radius (Left Arm and Club) of some five feet. How much Clubface Closing can there actually be in the resulting Arc of the Impact Interval? Or, even more specifically, the 3/4 of an inch from Impact to Separation? Certainly not much. But, like the tide in your coffee cup, it is there.

Remember also that the #1 Snare in Golf is Steering, i.e., attempting to hold the Clubhead on the Target Line and the Clubface Square to that Line through Impact. And the tendency to Steer -- Under Roll -- is directly proportional to one's handicap. The higher the handicap, the greater the tendency to Steer. And vice versa!

Conversely, better players have largely overcome Steering (and its enabling henchman, Quitting) and Release the Club freely. In fact, as you have indicated, there may be an excessive Rotation -- Over Roll -- of the Left Wrist past its Vertical alignment for Impact. This puts the Clubshaft Out-of-Line with the Left Arm (thus destroying Rhythm) and results in a Throwaway just as damaging as the Horizontal Bending of the Wrist.

So, as a general rule, I would say that higher handicap players (particularly those with a Slicing problem) should attempt to Feel more Wrist Roll through Impact -- counter-clockwise rotation of the Hands -- and better players (particularly those with a Hooking problem) should Feel less (and maybe even none). Assuming correct Execution of the Hinge Action, the Clubface will perform identically for each player, despite their 'opposite' Feels.

:)

Roll one for Lil' Green Man
 

Kaptain Green Drawz to the rescue!!! That is exactly what I was wanting/trying/meaning to say but . . . don't have the ability to make what's in my braincell come out in english words.

And as you so eloquently and expertly described . . . How much rotation can there be in 3/4 of an inch (maximum compression) not much . . . but that ball don't tell no lies and it for sure knows about each and every degree. A degree is a degree. But when you extend that line out 200 yards or so a degree or two is the difference between collecting a greenie and collecting a bill for a busted sliding glass door.

Good post! I must confess to be the Hooker you have described . . . Mike O stay off my corner!!!

Thanks Boss&B

This is precisely what guys like me find most difficult to feel; let alone achieve the desired result from obtaining that feeling.

The more I swing out and down to right field and the more I then roll and swivel post impact the worse the results I get.

I see Tour players on TV hitting the ball seemingly dead straight from what seems to be almost an outside in path and contact directly on the rear of the ball. You could, almost, accuse them of steering the ball towards the target.

I see take aways for swingers and approaches into impact that are nothing more seemingly than paddle wheel motions. No laying of the club face against the inclined plane on, or immediately after, take away or any overt rolling of the club face from laying on plane to back to impact alignments on the down swing.

Seems to me that the descriptions of what really happens in the golf swing are very much overcooked in order to get an idea across.

Certainly, the more I try to fulfill the seemingly required criteria the worse the result. This can, of course, simply be down to me and inadequate execution - y'all quiet down now, ya hear!

On the other hand, if I just swing the club back, in and up, then down, out, in and up again, with the sole intention of just staying on plane and smacking the ball square in the A$$ in an attempt to propel it forwards, I achieve acceptable results.

Maybe your action already has sufficient down and out, and your efforts to go down and out consciously is causing you to be underplane?

Could be so and that would explain the high, wide and relatively short swipes out to right field, not to mention the occasional, compensatory, OB left.

This is why I like a Laser to trace the base or Plane Line over a training aid like the vision track for Swingers. You need to ROLL on LINE. Trace the Plane line and Roll on that Line. This is not the path of the hands. This is the path of the clubhead. Roll ON Line.

Swingers with a vertical on plane uncocking of Acc#2 and the transfer power from the roll of acc#3 will keep a laser lite/clubhead tracing the Base/Plane Line.


This of course is not a Hinge Action.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input.

My plane tracing work involves the use of end to end flashlights.

When doing this work I find that covert rolling clockwise on the back swing and then counter clockwise on the down swing and follow through does not feature. This supposed rolling seems to be simply a by-product of the on plane motion. Furthermore, I have no sensation of swinging out to right field when doing this.

Over egging these terms, certainly in my case, caused real problems and I am now trying very hard to get back to the way I used to swing before I got caught up in these notions.

When I used the VisionTrack I found it helpful in that it encouraged the keeping of the right shoulder inside the plane line, so to speak, i.e discouraged round-housing. However, an angle of approach of 11* seemed a little severe for this purpose. Too much out to right field I thought.