Pace, Pressure, Rhythm, Flails, Delivery Paths, Acceleration and Pulley Sizes
 

Do y'all se a connection to all these items? I think there is a HUGE connection here that Homer understood. In particular the difference between pace and Rhythm as in Golfing Machine rhythm. They are DIFFERENT . . . but at the same time there is a connection in my mind.

What do y'all think? Let's talk.

Agree there are big interelationships and dependencies.

Would help to define "pace".

Do you mean handspeed or something else? (Trick question)

Milk and cookies keep you up late last night? A big brain-wave this morning?:study:

To me the pace is directly related to the amount of pressure you want to apply,but this is limited to your maximum handspeed.
Rhythm controls/is the #3 accumulator hand motion,so the two are very definately connected.
And the flail components ,pivot ,power package all have to be synchronised so as not to disrupt the delivery line.
Quick reply off the top of my head ,no reference to book so i have probably got this lot mixed up .But it is a test ,right Bucket?:pumpkin:

Good question . . . How about this? Is pace "tempo" or handspeed? Or is that the same?

Actually I was munchin on some smoked poke sausage . . . now y'all can start with the jokes . . .

Pretty good stuff . . .

How does this relate . . . car speeding down the road at 70 MPH . . . sharp curve . . . now what??? How do that relate?

Homer didn't have much to say about it. He first mentions the word PACE in 2-G (7th edition) while discussing rhythm and hinge action. He refers the reader to "See 2-P-0 regarding PACE."

In 2-P. THE WRISTCOCK.
"The Wristcock shortens the Swing Radius to facilitate and synchronize the Rhythm and Acceleration of the Pivot and Power Package."

"The true Angular Speed (RPM) of the Clubhead is identical to that of the Hands due to the mandatory Flat Left Wrist."

Here's the real deal...

"Uncocking the Left Wrist is Lever Assembly Extension only. Its appearance of "Overtaking" is incidental because it is actually seeking (Overtaking) its maximum RPM, which it already has by reason of the Flat Left Wrist. Therefore, it does not - and must not - affect the Lever Assembly RPM, (the Endless Belt Effect). The #3 Power Accumulator is the true Clubhead overtaking Action by reason of either "Maintaining" or "Returning to" its In-Line relelationship and its "Vertical-to-a-plane" Hinge Action Alignment. The Lever Assembly Extention RATE aids the #3 Accumulator Action and is regulated by Trigger Delay until FULL EXTENSION."

Homer mentions Pace three other times -

6-P-0 NON-AUTOMATIC RELEASE
Your "Motion" must include its "Pace" - that is, Handspeed (RPM), strong, consistent and RHYTHMIC. Then, manipulating the Trigger Delay will handle most Clubhead Speed Variations.

12-5-0 BASIC REQUIREMENTS
Your "Basic Motion" is a selected motion carefully maintaining the same characteristics of Angle, Pace, Rhythm, and Posture to serve as your Constant" on which Stroke Components can be hung without altering those charactersistics for any unintentional cause.

12-5-1 BASIC MOTION
Pace is listed as as #19 and references 2-G.

So at a cursory glance it appears that PACE is handspeed (RPM) and the reason I said this was a trick question, the Glossary defines PACE as:

PACE Example – walking vs. running.
Mechanical – The miles per hour (MPH) of a moving body.
Golf – The surface speed of the orbiting Clubhead as differentiated from Rhythm.

And thats all he wrote...so with all of these little chicken nuggets in mind, go back to 2-G to reconcile rhythm and pace. I've got to get back to work, but I'll be baaa-uck.

P.S. I believe the answer to the pace question is embedded in this post and I don't think it's hand speed, but... wouldn't be the first or last time I was wrong.

To net it out because...I'm just a bottom line guy. (here's where you can insert jokes)

I believe Homer is referring to "Pace" as the #3 Accumulator Clubhead Overtaking Rate measured in surface speed. The RPM is set up by hand speed and as the clubhead is catching up to the inline hand position by uncocking, the clubhead momentum is transferred to #3 roll power where true surface speed is measured (Pace).

Rhythm is the Rate (RPM) and Degree of Clubface Closing based on the selected hinge action.

Hand Speed is set up with the downstroke shoulder turn and remains at a constant MPH and RPM after initial acceleration. The endless belt.

Pulley size has a big impact on "#3 overtaking rate" and "rate of clubface closing" but not as much of an impact on pace (clubhead surface speed at impact)

Out of Jolt Cola...time for Bagger to stop now.

IMO It relates in that hand speed and acc #3 rhythm must be coordinated SO THAT THE CAR CAN GO STRAIGHT ON!- at the fastest possible speed.
The car is not on the end of your arm.This is not a good analogy as the cars grip relies on friction -and the golf swing does not.(at least at the flail end!)

Alternative answer -EAT THAT 12 PIECE QUICK:laughing9

OK . . . think about this . . . to have the same what is required for a circle path to generate the same clubhead speed as straight line delivery? Now think about what fast cars do when they come to a sharp turn . . .

Holla.

They are both travelling in a circle no?

I believe the answer lies in your quotes above . . . the connection between the chosen Delivery Path and Pulley size, the REQUIRED Pace and resulting surface speed . . . surface speed is what? Pace is pop golf rhythm . . . but it ain't TGM Rhythm . . . but I believe Pace can aid or disrupt Rhythm. The answer is in the Belt.

Yes . . . and what must happen for a car to move in a circle if it is traveling at 90 mph and comes to a sharp turn? Assuming you don't have chicken grease on the wheel of course.

OK Bucket -they slow down (brake):confused1

I figured somebody'd get all over that one! I would make a wife joke but I shall refrain.

Ding Ding!!! Ok now . . . Circle Path vs. Straight Line Delivery with Small Pulley . . . talk to me about Pace and Lag Pressure for each . . .

My crispy fried friend,

I believe Pace is surface speed and you believe its hand speed. So I'll Bite.
Lag pressure for a circle path is not as heavy as a snap/straight line path.

If hand speed equals pace then what is the term for surface speed?

Oh...as it pertains to the golf stroke.

Hand speed pace and release . . . oh yeah golf stroke golf stroke . . . stroke . . . sorry! Yeah back to the program

I think Pace is definitely more of a hand speed thang than surface speed thang. If because we have a law of the fail and we comply with it . . . our handzeez travel a certain speed and our clubhead hopefully travels at a greater speed for the long ball anyhow . . . but since we love the flail our hands and club travel at the same RPM . . .but the SURFACE SPEED of business end of the club (the head) is moving faster than our handzeez . . . this is a result of what?

And for straight line versus circle path . . . picture Tom I-kicked-McCord'sazz-out-of-Augusta Watson with his circle path and its pace versus Big Easy with his pace and his small pulley . . . who do you reckon feels more Lag Pressure? Which'un requires more hand speed to generate an equal amount of Clubhead (surface :)) speed?

Scream back at me.

Sorry dude, but I just couldn't set myself up for that one...
No doubt about that.
But the answer is the head moves faster because during the uncocking the head is catching up to the hand RPM for it's in line condition. He doesn't define surface speed until #3 kicks in.

Well that ones pretty straight forward because I resembled ole Tom for a while, but suffice to say as the slower hands hit the small pulley, they feel lag pressure more instanteously than the faster hands going around the big pulley. I gotta believe that for each, LAG PRESSURE THROUGH IMPACT IS THE SAME for the same pace...I mean...SURFACE SPEED:eyes: .

That's about the best I can do to scream.

Oh...and I could be really wrong about all of this cause after all, I'm just a big ole loud mouth Texas boy.:toothy: :toothy:

Have a poke chop break and keep it goin, theres a bunch more...
I gotta break to turn a big ole rib eye smoke'in on the grill.

Lets assume both have the same clubhead speed . .. who has more hand speed . . . Tom or EZ?

Tom "fast twitch" Watson vs. Ernie "big easy" Els...

Is this a trick question??? Gimmi a minute whilst I marinate that steak.

Tom would need the faster hand speed, but MikeO would wax both of them in terms of PACE!

Not that I'm side'in with the lunatic fringe or anything but if this is a trick question you'd better bring in the big guns.

Uh oh...I think I hear somethin cock'in and it ain't left wrists.

Fast Hands and Big Pulleys
 

Why does Tom Watson need faster hands than Ernie?

It's spelled out in 7-18.

"With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH - in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position - reducing the Accumulator #3 Travel -plus Trigger Delay. Conversely - a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an earlier Trigger."

The question I have is, "If someone has high hand speed are they limited to using only a big pulley?"

My guess is it depends on if they can generate enough pivot lag to use fast hands and a big pulley without overacceleration. Sounds about as risky as 4 barrels to me.

Yes, flirting with overacceleration is dangerous.

What if someone lessens #3 accumulator angle, takes a straight line delivery path, max trigger delay and snap release with fast hands?

Pretty cool I think.

Bucket -
I know you have me on "ignore" :crybaby: but I gotta get off this thread cause its time to go back to my little wiring closet. Sorry for messing up things up in the middle of your Black Panther party.:)

Bagger Gump

uhmm..... I like to put it this way.. what i know.. may be wrong but .. I'll bite.
Club head speed is created by

1) the maximum accumulator you can create ( Higher distance for acceleration) + the Maximum trigger delay you can make which translate to higher Rate of Release = SPEED . a combination of these = SPEED, Thus hand speed is = Strength to hold on + how fast your muscle can follow up with the release, thus grip, forearm strength and speed are very important. This part can be Very very fast and violent irregardless of tempo.

2) Rhythm is the RPM that need to be maintain ( body and arm at the pulley part of endless belt)and Tempo is speed . but a large pulley speed Travel Fast. Does it matter? yes but not as huge as no.1 i would say less important. The larger the PULLEY.. The LESS efficient as Homer explains... Larger Pulley require Higher Hand speed to maintain rhythm( cause travel further). he say Require ... NEED.. and thus club head speed is inter-related with Point 1. Which mean you can use a BIG pulley and HIGH hand speed as in big pulley and the MPH not really fast.

so.. Hand speed .. 2 kinds...

1 Now strong and fast the educated hands and brain can hold on and follow up (maintain lag pressure) to a violent faster rate of release..

2 How fast the hand have to travel in a huge pulley to maintain RPM, which have a more "passive role" in a PIVOT transport or accumulator 4 case because of PIVOT transport.

The smaller the pulley, the slower the hands required to maintain rhythm, thus more efficient, the bigger the pulley the more acceleration can be created.Diminishing returns.....

But the way I think is,, the less effort to create higher output a person can create, the better and more efficient he is, thus relying on faster rate of release is more reproducible and less taxing on the body( fatigue) thus much better mechanics and powerful.

Thus... its my bias opinion.. a turned shoulder, 3/4 barrel swing , with a cupped left wrist at the end,with a Flip release and a long back swing can go the furthest with least effort.. not neccessary the most repeatable..

I'm going crazy...:turkey: :turkey:

must resist temptation to stop reading bucket's post :p...

Perhaps, but only by the club specs they are using. If you have high hand speed, it may prove helpful to get heavier clubs/shafts so that you can keep in rhythm with your pace! :laughing9

Mr Kelley defines "Pace" as The surface speed of the orbiting Clubhead - as differentiated from Rhythm.

He urges us (6-P-0) to never make a shot BUT to make a ([non-automatic] release) "Motion".

So, a non-automatic release procedure is invoked in order to produce "Pace" - a steady and constant hand speed, augmented by Trigger Delay to produce the desired effect.

Therefore, there is no connection between "Pace" and "Rhythm" unless a conscious decision is made to keep both lever assemblies at the same RPM - in which event Pace is sacrificed in the interest of maintaining Rhythm.

Now you are on to it my friend! The endless belt and the small pulley presents a mechanical advantage high clubhead speed with comparatively low hand speed relative to the big pulley anyway. It is my contention that a small pulley REQUIRES lower handspeed (which I think is Pace or at least related to it) inorder to capitalize on the mechanical advantage of the small pulley.

So back to the car analogy . . . if you are driving your Gremlin around a gentle curve, you can slap hawlazz and not worry about running into anybody's mail box or dawg (assuming sober). But if you are racing down a straight away in your Vega and you come to a sharp curve you better step on the short peddle because otherwise you will be bustin' through a DQ window or somebody's front yard.

So back to G.O.L.F. with a circle path . . . you can expend much more effort as far as handspeed without disrupting your rhythm and inorder to match the mechanical advantage with regards to physics of the snap release (small pulley) you'd better have a bunch of handspeed.

But for the small pulley and the snap release . . . you are zoom zoom zooming down the straight-away and then you divert the straight line motion into angular motion and the club SLINGS out. But if you are going down the straight away too fast the rubber ain't gonna meet the road no mo'. And you can't maintain the pressure point pressure and something has to give . . . the club can fly out to early or you disrupt your rhythm and bye bye Flat Left Wrist.

Slow for snap . . . fast for circle if you want the same surface speed.

Hey! Sum Bucket Luv!

The car analogy ain't work'in for me Poke Chop.

My SL500 with antislip, ABS, and fat rubber rides on rails so I hit the corners fast to drop the nose and accelerate hard through the turn. It's says Bagger on the plates so everyone knows it comes straight from LBG.

But in terms of the golf swing, we see cow to pig so to speak. In other words, one mans pork is another mans...I don't want to go there. But I agree with you!

Still no "Pace" sauce for you unless I got the receipe wrong. I'm still stick'in with clubhead surface speed as defined by #3 overtaking rate.

I think there is a GINORMOUS connection between Pace and Rhythm. Handspeed, fast or slow, relative to clubhead speed is exponentially slower. The surface speed is a result of an extention of the Primary Lever Assembly . . . thereby increasing from a small radius (cocked) to a large radius (uncocking). This increase in radius from the extention of the lever assembly results major velocity . . . but ideally not to the detriment of Rhythm with the Left Arm Flying Wedge and its Flat Left Wrist in tact . . . so surface speed is increasing dramatically but the RPM is the same . . . Law of the Flail.

So the hands can move slow (Pace) but the clubhead can move real fast (surface speed).

Them fat tarz ain't gonna do you no good if there is ice or gravel in the turn . . . you gotta have some friction in your diction. I say there's grease in at the pulley end of the endless belt and you better go slow or your gonna pop your load to quick.

New York City!!??!!!??? . . . you stick with clubhead surface speed . . . people stuck on the titanic too. Bucket still wuvs you.

A Winner!
 

See Bucket, there you go. EdZ understands. He gets it. (at least I think you do).

"What does he get Bagger?"
Well Jay Stewart, EdZ gets a 20 oz. Dry-Aged Texas Ribeye complete with a 16 oz bottle of PACE sauce!
"Huh...Bagger...EdZ is vegan."
Oh...what do we have for backup?
"Well Bagger, there's a hundred pound sack of Collard Greens"
Ed, you've won a 100 pound bag of greens along with a bottle of PACE sauce!
:) :)

Is there an error in the Glossary definition of Pace?

PACE Example – walking vs. running.
Mechanical – The miles per hour (MPH) of a moving body.
Golf – The surface speed of the orbiting Clubhead as differentiated from Rhythm.

My final argument -

You see Bucket, there is a difference between pace and rhythm in that PACE measures the #3 accumulator clubhead travel in MPH (4 feet of surface speed for example) whereas RHYTHM measures the RPM of clubface rotation, and degree of rotation of the clubface.

There are times when hand speed equals clubhead speed such as putting, chipping and pre-release but handspeed is not measured in MPH which is a surface speed calculation, it is measured as RPM around the belt.

#3 is the "true" overtaking rate to measure. Angular velocity converted to roll power.

So you may ask, what is #3 overtaking since it is always inline?

Read 2-P again.

"Uncocking the Left Wrist is Lever Assembly Extension only. Its appearance of "Overtaking" is incidental because it is actually seeking (Overtaking) its maximum RPM, which it already has by reason of the Flat Left Wrist. Therefore, it does not - and must not - affect the Lever Assembly RPM, (the Endless Belt Effect). The #3 Power Accumulator is the true Clubhead overtaking Action by reason of either "Maintaining" or "Returning to" its In-Line relationship and its "Vertical-to-a-plane" Hinge Action Alignment. The Lever Assembly Extention RATE aids the #3 Accumulator Action and is regulated by Trigger Delay until FULL EXTENSION."

And that's all I have to say about that. The Defense of the Glossary definition rests.

Burrr...it's getting cold in here. Anybody else understand it this way or can someone clarify pace vs. rhythm so we can move on to the rest of Buckets list?

Whoever is wrong has to shave their head.

Bagger Gump

If you had a bar of music, you could increase its speed yet the rhythm would be totally unaffected. You can likewise affect the speed of a golf stroke (pace) without any change to its rhythm.

Pace
 

My $.02 worth. For me I think tempo is the speed of the pivot that I want to make for the particular shot I want to hit, this is the same as Pace. Rhythm is the ability to maintain that Tempo (Pace). If I do it right it = a good shot, if not, bad shot.

It's Christmas time and Bagger sings "Ma's cookin' chicken and collard greens, rice and stuffing, macaroni and cheese and Mike O's stealin' presents from under Christmas trees. Mikey chasin' Bagger with a can of mase . . . in stilletto pumps he can't keep up the PACE. So out on the porch the dumb monkey goes . . . with a strange yellow liquid writin' in the snow. Open your eyes lend us an ear . . . Mikey writes Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!! . . . and he printed it.

Ossifer . . . there is nothing wrong with the definition of Pace . . . there's something wrong with somebody's understanding of it. Maybe one of the heavies from A-town or from the stinky trunk of a 70's vintage car can clear this up.

It is still my contention that surface speed is at the SURFACE thus the outter part of the circle (end of the radius). Pace is the speed of the motion of the hands . . . the interior part of the circle. As you have so quoted #2 is LEVER EXTENSION ONLY. #2 doesn't in itself make speed it is the moving from a short radius to a long radius hopefully to full extension AFTER the ball is struck. And Rhythm is the glue that binds it all together . . . but if your Pace (handspeed) is wrong for the chosen pulley diameter . . . it all comes UNGLUED.

Anybody seen my glue stick . . . oh there it is . . . Mikey!!! . . . get that outta your nose!!!

I think Bucket gets a check in his column for this'un.

What new math brings you to that conclusion???

Mathew is the second really smart dude to agree with me!:salut:

Now you are trying to call your buddy MikeO into the debate???&H
News flash McMurphy, two lunatics in the cuckoos nest do not make a sane person.

Bambam - why are we allowing Bucket into the TGM Advanced section of this forum???

Rick - I think that is the most common view of tempo and rhythm, but Golfing Machine rhythm is defined differently. I use to think the same thing and it was very confusing trying to understand TGM with that definition. If you are into the book or trying to learn from TGM instruction, you can save yourself a lot of confusion by understanding how Homer defined rhythm.

So far, I think everyone is on the same page regarding TGM rhythm (but I'm having doubts now that Bucket gets it) and the endless belt.

If I'm wrong about anything in my posts I expect to be called out. I left my badge in the wiring closet when I jumped into the ring with Bucket. Bucket is getting wupped regarding Golfing Machine Pace, so he's calling on his lunatic buddy to bring duct tape and bailing wire into the ring.

Bring in your buddy MikeO, but he must agree to have his head shaved if your understanding of pace is wrong. I know MikeO understands rhythm, but if you don't then not only is your head getting shaved, you have to eat cow with pace sauce.:laughing9

By the way McMurphy, what is TGM Rhythm?

Ooooooooo . . . I LOVE IT WHEN YOU GET THAT FIRE IN THE EYES . . . SEXY!!!!


I got TGM Rhythm . . . I been explaining it in the past 3 responses. Rhythm and Pace are different . . . but I contend related . . . it is simply the club keeps its in-line relationship with the left arm regardless of grip while cocking uncocking turning and rolling . . .

but the question is . . . PACE.

We got Rhythm
 

Nahhh, I'm not wound up. Just giving you a hard time to draw out some clarity in definition. You need someone besides MikeO to mess with you.:)
I agree with you they are different and integral to each other.
Iron sharpens Iron buddy and I have some rust on the blade.

To add a few comments on Rhythm. There are a whole are a bunch of people who need to understand these concepts because they are awesome TGM fundamentals. Alot of this is in 2-G and 7-18.

There is a Rhythm of left arm/club RPM independent of lever extension and a Rhythm of Hinge Action (clubface roll).

Rhythm is holding the left arm and clubshaft at the same RPM throughout the stroke while the flail allows the overtaking of components at an even rate. Can we call this "constant hand speed"?

In terms of hinge action - roll is imparted by the turning torso and/or orbiting arms 2-G. and is facilitated or produced by the extension of the right elbow. Hinge Action Rhythm is the motion (degree and rate of roll) of the clubface based on one of the three possible planes; Horizontal, Angled, or Vertical. The motion is executed on an inclined plane so the motion (rhythm) is either full roll horizontal, half roll angled, or no roll vertical. That is the rhythm of hinging and it is an overtaking component.

Why can't we just say "Tempo"?
Why did Homer use the term Rhythm instead of Tempo?

Tempo is the overall speed of a pattern.
Rhythm is group of timing intervals. The intervals may be even or uneven.
Tempo can consist of multiple rhythmic patterns.

What about Pace?
Pace is a measure of speed.

I'm not a musician, but I'm certain there are direct analogies for Pace, Rhythm and Tempo.

Mad Genius
 

Stand Back! Genius at work! :) A Sick Genius but non the less a Genius. How's your novel coming along- I'm predicting you'll outsell that Harry Potter lady!