"Use the Bounce of the club" means what in the shortgame???? (excludes bunker shots)
 

I have heard this phrase often when in comes to pitch shots. How would we apply that (or should we) from a TGM perspective?

With all but a very tight lie, using the bounce provides more margin for error, especially for high soft shots around the green, and most certainly from the rough.

Using the leading edge requires much more precision for clubHEAD control, and from the rough, the risk is that you will get caught up and have little chance at good distance control.

It is a matter of practice and experimentation to learn what types of lies allow you to use more/less bounce and the specific wedge/bounce design can make a big difference IMO.

In effect, the same as a bunker shot. Having the bounce of the club hit the ground first, allows it to glide through, rather than dig/stick in the rough.

When would you want to hit the ground first, rather than the ball, in a pitch shot? That is, what "situations" call for this type of shot selection?

You know I've often wondered what the hell that meant too . . . Good question 3Billz. Thanks for bringing this up.

EdZ . . . do you INTENTIONALLY hit the ball fat when doing this? I have used that shot some and it works good. But I'm not sure that is what you are saying.

Holla back.

some refer to this and intend of throwing the club away and loosing the FLW also, that is how is was explaned to me more of a cupping of the left wrist into impact thus totally destroying the flying wedge alignments

club bounce
 

I have probably used club bounce a lot,I mainly use it to ensure the club does,nt get a chance to dig in causing fluffed shot by using bottom of club to ride over turf,whereas using leading edge can sometimes dig in,I mainly use it around greens for short chips etc,ensuring that I keep hands ahead of c/head at all times and not be afraid of giving it a hit

Stan Utley advocate and suggest golfers fail to use the bounce correctly for the short game shots. He uses primarily a 58* 12* bounce for almost all his chips, pitches and bunker shots. Also he talks about hitting a ball off of concrete using his style.

He just came out with a book, The Art of the Short Game, June 2007 Stan Utley.

I picked up Utleys book and he advocates hitting the ground first, then the ball, on pitch shots....????###@@@@. What!

:happy3:
He's probably a Hitter or something stoopid like that :eyes: .

Ha, Ha, Ha, ......Agreed!

Do you have the book? What did he say about hitting behind it?

I have hit some shots like that intentionally when the ball is sitting crappy. You can hit some soft shots that way. Interested to hear what he has to say. He was the flavor of the month not long ago.

I saw him playing at the Masters back in the 90's . . . he was still sportin' a mullet . . . lookin suuuhwheat.

He says on pitch shots, he likes to use the bounce of the club to hit turf first, then the ball (shaft should be vertical or very close to it at impact). He does not like spin on pitch shots, as its less predictable than height + roll.

Mid ball position, 70% weight left (this encourages the downward angle of attack and provides a consistant low point, at which the ball should be placed just in front of that low point), and you pivot around that left post (leg), your arms go inside on the backswing and around you on the forward swing (think, sweep). Soft elbows allow for the swinging from inside, to square, to inside. Angled hinging.

He also says he hits (oops) his chips with his pivot, swinging around his left post.

His overall big key is turning around your spine, and having a consistent low point from which to sweep the ball, chipping or pitching, towards the target without much spin. No Lee Trevino divots from this guy.

I am on the second read of his book. Have to say his pictures don't match all the word description.

I think reading the faults and causes are of value, not that you need to adopt his technique but he cover a wide variety of faults golfers have with chips, pitches and bunker play.

His is big on clubface control but his descriptions IMO don't track with the pictures all the time.

For a bad lie from thick rough around the green, where you need to make 'sure' you get it out, but you don't have much distance to get on the green - yep - I intentially move low point back - just like in a bunker shot.

Keep in mind that does not mean throw away, it means I adjust the machine alignments/ball position/clubface to get my low point under the ball, instead of ahead of it, or even behind for a nasty lie.

All the while the machine moves the same way, the setup determines the result not an in swing manipulation. Far easier than intentionally throwing it away, which while useful at certain times (very high, soft shot) is much harder to do than to simpley align the machine for the result you want.

Using the bounce basically means manipulation of the low point of the clubhead (aiming point), moving it back from where it would be if you were using the leading edge. Still with a flat left wrist.

I think you can hit it intentionally fat on cuppy lies and really tight lies too.

I agree with stan utley.
 

All low handicapper great short game player I know know how to use vertical hinging, throwaways in their chip and pitches, almost all by experiences. And get them closer to the green. The bounce really helps in cushioned lies, even soft turfs, making the club bounce/glides off the thick turf / rough instead of digging or twisting in the rough.

But its not necessary that the hand is ahead at impact we cannot get the bounce working correctly. Just get a bigger bounce .... or wider flange.. IMPO. Instead of digging in fat pitch ( which we shouldn't by the way) it will bounce and glide. Let the equipment work for us.

Of course we can use a good compression, the ball compress great,roll fast, and stop fast around the green with some practice. But I now realized its not as forgiving..There are players like these,and I used to play this way, but the score is streaky. SOFT , 2m2 /4 , low acceleration is the key( even with a flat left wrist and correct aligment) to consistencies /predictable again I agree with Stan on this point.

Though... i am not sure to agree about the ground then the ball,Not sure what he meant by that.. its in my incubator.

Anti-Digging
 

So that the clubhead doesn't dig into the ground-sand or dirt or grass.

The thing about his pitch shots though, which is an adjustment, is the amount of run out they have. Because this technique reduces spin, you must play for the amount of run out to get the ball close to the pin.

Conceptually, I like the simplicity of the motion. Additionally, I like the pitch shot with the pin back, and even flop/lobs from the rough (although, you must adjust ball position forward and open your stance, which he dosent advocate). On tighter pin placements though, I am not sure this is the best option, I think pinching the ball give you a better chance at getting it close.

I like his chipping though, simple, and predictable motion. Also, the use of one club rather than several, is great.

I didn't think of it that way ... No expert in this but... what my experiences is, ( which is not much anyway) vertical hinging and throwaway make the shots land extremely soft and green stopping than hard compression spinning shots

Hard compression shots easily bounce and check to the unpredictable directions. Especially if the landing area is curvy .. or not flat. I am just talking within 50 yards...

Those hackers can really score around the green.... with ugly steering , and thinking the club should travel straight in straight through scooping action.. Ugly to watch but.. the results... :salut: . They don't have a long game but they can score around the green with enough practice.

Just my unprofessional opinion though

I was talking about the shaft being vertical to the ground and impact, so there may be ever so slight of a flat left wrist at impact. I summize thats Utleys technique is more of a "draw" motion (inside to inside swing, with mid ball position), with the body pivot doing the work.

Certainly, if you add throwaway, which many times is needed, you will soften the shot, and have little run-out.

Think of the courses we play and for those who do not always hit the green we have 4 places we can miss (excluding bunkers), short where we are on fairway type grass, or left, right, or past the green, where we are more likely to find some rough. And its from the rough that we need height to land the ball and allow it to run (or not run depending on the distance we have to throw it way up in the air) to the hole. Spin from the rough is tougher to come by. So, I think these are the areas that are ripe for the cuts, lobs, flops, and........throwaway!

Now question is,, how to have flat left wrist and center ball position and a vertical shaft ...at impact ... hum....

Also in chipping many teacher including Tom Tomasello uses Heel up ... cool way to use a bounce isn't it?

....Not quite vertical, and certainly not "hitting" down on the ball.

The cool thing about the book for me, is it forces me to think of options....and when it comes to short game, you must be creative, imaginative, and have an arsenal of shots for the situation at hand.

BTW, I am sure Seve B, (a short game guru), used throwaway quite a bit.

If you look at his pictures and then compare it to the text, it doesn't track too well.

The idea of having a cup wrist for pitch shots, cupping the wrist on the backstroke, bowing the wrist for chips to control trajectory, minimal shaft leaning on chips while even advocating laying back the shaft on pitches makes his technique appear to be more complex than needed. Then we take the changes at address position with the hands lower, etc....

On my second read. I think he has done a great job on identify faults and causes, but his written technique vs pictures along with some catch words seems off to me.

He beleives the pitch shot is high, little spin, lands softly and stops. He seems to be very much anti-back spin and pro-trajectory and run out.

Seve B ... in some of his video in some magazines somewhere.. remember him saying soft arms, left arm must Bend after impact ... to aid softer shots... so ... no extensor action with chicken wing? ...


We need to keep an open mind. this short game thingie is making me confused cuckle

Ballesteros chipped with ball forward, hitters type extensor action into a vertical shaft at low point. Left arm bends with inside of left elbow tracing around the (left side) body above the beltline.

Click here to see: Seve demonstrating ball control with clubhead ;)

YUP... That what I thought and then decided to try it.

Well it takes a bit to get use to, at least for me.

Interesting the pitch shots I hit from 15 to 40 yds, I don't think they were more that 3 feet from where they hit. Not much spin and no they aren't going to back up.

This reminds me of the dead hands shot the Ken Venturi used to advocate.

I do think he has a lot of good info on faults and causes in his book. Though I think it is not written well and someone with a dictionary of buzz words seems to have injected them into the text.

I have read it twice now, took notes, tried it. Will I change? That remains to be seen, I will definitely add some of what he has to my tool set but to change wholesale, not sure I am ready for that.

Agree with not changing everything. I like his chipping; my results with it have yielded more precitability and control.

I like hit pitching for "certain situations" (i.e., back pins, wind, etc). BUT, I still need the compression pitches as well for tucked pins.

You could also play all the above shots WITHOUT throwaway;)

Nice to have options.

Could someone please describe "throwaway" as it applies here.
If Utley can insert jargon. Can LBG be far behind?

Bending the left wrist and allowing the shaft to get out of line with the left arm.

We never want to do that, do we?

Bounce and the shortgame? It means nothing to me except for bunker shots and heavy rough.

For a fairway shot I can't see what effect bounce has.......in fact it can be difficult to hit a cut up shot with too much bounce on the club.

Bounce would only be useful if you were hitting the ball fat.

Yep, hit it fat, slice it around the greens. That will give you soft shots, which is very useful. Also allows you to avoid humps and bumps, whereby you can land the ball close to the hole and it will stop.

The shot is actually with ball at your left foot, towards the pinkie toe, with a slicing action through the shot, favoring hitting it fat, rather than thin. Works great inside 50 yards. Works better with a gap wedge than lob wedge, unless in the ruff, where you will need speed to get through the grass and a higher lofted club.

Try it.

As someone who is terrible at chipping. :crybaby: would you recommend Stan's book as a good start? Or maybe some other DVDs etc out there? At the moment I guess I mostly try to hit down on the ball. Sometimes with disasterous results.

Oh! I just found the big thread on this :) :salut:

As far as hitting down on chip shots, the more you hit down on them the less margin for error you have. If you lean your weight left, have your hands way forward and pick the club up and hit down you have to catch the ball just perfectly not to hit it fat or thin. My feeling is that the flatter plane Utley recommends will almost immediately result in consistently better results, no more terrible shots provided the left wrist is kept flat through the impact interval. I power my short game shots with the right forearm, keeping the left wrist flat throughout and allowing my arms to work more around me. This makes clean contact much simpler than some other techniques. You can do a search for Seve Ballesteros on youtube, seeing his technique never hurt anyone.

Matt

Bad chipping is a sign that there is something wrong with your full swing. A chip is a small full swing- Impact is Impact in both cases- the Geometry is the same. Solve your chipping problems by improving your Stroke with Basic and Acquired Motions.

Learn where the right arm has to live at impact, even against its will.

Thanks Matt, I will check out Seve.

I do try :) but am still learning. The margin for error in chip shot is very frustrating when I get pretty much get to the green, or edge of, in regulation then mess up a little chip. For that matter so is putting. :( I am in my 3rd year from starting golf and have a lot to ingrain, and still make a lot of errors.
Thanks, I will check out Lynns videos again for the basic and acquired motions.