Tomasello Argument - Final Comment
 

I started the thread the "Tomasello Argument" and I will end with the Tomasello Argument on Tommy's behalf.

During my three day school, I asked Tommy where in the book does it say start the club down with the Right Forearm. Tomasello's response....7-3, THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM. Hitting or Swinging. "The Right Forearm has complete control".
The upward and downward force is provided by a straight-up folding and un-folding of the right forearm from it's address position. You simply fold your right arm at the elbow to swing the club up. From there, you try to throw the clubhead into the ground by unfolding your right arm. Tom Tomasello Golf Illustrated July 1991.

(TGM 7-3. Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the Left Arm and/or COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist without Bending, Flattening or Cocking the Right Wrist.)

(TGM 7-3...it is absolutely MANDATORY that, Hitting or Swinging, it is the Right Forearm---not just the Right Hand and/or Clubshaft--that must be thrown, or driven, into impact per 7-2-3.)

"All that Stuff about leading the downswing with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs towards the target to retain power---it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be what's happening, but it's not really what happens in the most efficient, centifugal-force golf swing." Tom Tomasello Golf Illustrated July 1991.
GI: What happens to the shots of the player who executes these moves

Tomasello:The player will immediately hit the ball higher and straighter, and substantially longer. The flight pattern will be dead straight to its apex, with the ball falling a touch left or drawing fractionally as it decends.

GI: How long before a student makes significant improvement?

Tomasello: I can give you documented examples of golfers with no previous record of success who started winning tournaments at various levels immediately. But the learning is never-ending. The amount of time and dedication the golfer puts in determines how far he or she can go.
Golf Illustrated July 1991

"Good Golf is Power Golf." Homer Kelley.

Done.....

DG

In regard to your last paragraph. I am not sure Biomechanic Analysis supports your position. That said some studies have indicated the lateral shift occurs prior to the completion of the backstroke.

I guess the question I have is when does the latteral shift occur since this sometimes occur prior to the completion of the back stroke (change in direction) while others seem to do it prior to the downstroke but when it appears the back stroke is completed. Then there are all those others who are still doing it at some undefined time during the down stroke but not consistent (hackers, golfers developing a stroke, etc.).

Dave

Thank you for sharing your knowledge...I have enjoyed all of it...the posts...the articles...the video clip...shipped at no cost...never say never so maybe down the road we will see your contributions to the Forum again..until then take care, good luck on your tests and hit them long and straight.


HG


PS

It would be interesting to have you swing with one of those iClub jackets and see what parts are moving when....

Tomasello's pattern is not the "end-all-be-all" of golf stroke patterns. It takes a lot of work beyond watching videos and reading old articles to make this or any pattern work. My biggest problem with making this pattern work in the real world is understand how the pivot works. I think that 90% of the golf stroke is the pivot, and Tomasello totally washes over it, but insteads preaches this hands controlled pivot fallacy. What he says and does are completely opposite. Learn how to pivot first and then add you right arm. That is how golf is played and it doesnt matter if you are a hitter, swinger, or switter. The hands cannot logically ever control the pivot; the pivot cannot logically control the hands. It takes both. It is the pivot stupid:happy3:

That is how I learned how to use my right arm in the golf swing, it is how most good players control the swing. Everything else is jsut theory and marketing.

Add a correct pivot and you now have a maximum participation stroke.

"Have at it." I have and the ball sails 290 + down the fairway with a draw.:laughing9

The above comments are a deviation from TGM...see 12-13-0.

IN TGM the ARMS LANE IS THE POWER LANE NOT THE PIVOT...Hips do not provide power they only maintain velocity.

Of course the pivot is important. A hands controlled pivot is NOT what you think it is. You have the wrong idea of the term- “Hands controlled pivot.” It is NOT an arm swing.

The pivot moves the hands. The pivot does the “work.” What the pivot does NOT do is control the, or think for, the golf stroke. The pivot is designed by the hands to delivery the club to the ball.

Although Zones 2 and 3 (arms and hands) supply the power to the ball. Zone 1 (body- the pivot) generates POWER. The pivot provides Throw OUT power like a rotor. Max out all the Pivot Lag you want and power it up.

The pivot components are 7-12 through 17:
Pivot
Shoulder TURN
Hip TURN
Hip Action
Knee Action
Foot Action

None of which hold the club but generate Lag and Throw –Out.

So when you hear the term Hands Controlled Pivot you know that it isn’t an arm swing but a well designed body motion that generates power (what ever amount is appropriate for the shot) to the arms and hands. Once the hands are educated and have designed this power pad- let it work for you.

I think that the above is why it is very important to train the pivot. Do so properly, and it allows you to monitor the pressure points, and use the hands effectively. If the pivot is faulty, you'll have to make compensations. You're hands have to be that much better, just to hit passable shots.

Pivot
 

When performing swing exercises with the feet and knees together one could still obtain considerable distances despite a minimal body pivot. How come?

The legs pushing into the ground and the ground pushing equal energy back generate the inital forces that make golf swings possible. The body's ability to muscularly harness and redirect that energy makes good golf swings possible.The muscles that rotate the torso certainly help to harness and redirect this energy to the powerful muscles that move our arms, hands, and golf club.

From One Who Knows
 

Thanks, Coop...Good stuff. I like it, and Percy Boomer, author of On Learning Golf (1946), would have liked it, too.

Been missin' ya. Keep those gems comin'! :salut:

Even with feet together, you have a shoulder turn and to a lesser degree a hip turn. The shoulders are in BOTH the pivot components and the power package components. The shoulders transmit the pivot motion in the stroke to the power package. So even feet together can never be a pure non-pivot motion. Feet together drill does eliminate the Feet, Knee and Hip Actions but not the Hip or Shoulder TURNS. You still have the Accumulators 4, 2, and 3 or 1, 2, and 3 in that drill.

Imagine the precision the Right Shoulder needs to be the portal between Pivot and Power.

IN TGM the ARMS LANE IS THE POWER LANE NOT THE PIVOT...Hips do not provide power they only maintain velocity.



Physically impossible!

Big Muscles don't supply power
 

Physically impossible aye....from the man himself.

Tomasello on the big muscles trying to generate power.

Tomasello: Don’t let your right elbow go behind you, it’s got to stay in front. Straight up…..Uncock….Yeah uncock the elbow…. nice and smooth….how easy can you do it.

Yeah that’s good….then you just face the target right.

Can you appreciate that… if that was a hammer or an axe and all that you did was this (drop it), how much power would that generate all by itself.

See, it isn’t that the hips are producing power, they are not, they are only maintaining the velocity that you generated here (uncocking of the right elbow, karate chop), that’s all they do….hips don’t generate power….it’s just to continue the speed that you generated here (karate chop)….how long does this take to get going there (uncocking the right elbow), not very long….and the hips continue that motion, that’s all…..So the big muscles do not supply power…but they want to." Tom Tomasello October 1993.

Thanks Mr. Tomasello for clearing that up....(Karate Chop it). Do you really understand TGM.


DG

The pelvis is not attached to the shoulder girdle. We can move our hips independently of our shoulders. Thus, clubhead speed does not increase because of fast hips, in fact, it can slow down because moving the hips too fast can throw everything out of sequence. A quicker shoulder turn through the ball however will increase clubhead speed.

Yes, Hula Hula. Independently BUT in coordination with each other. Check 7-15. "The work the Hip Action does, is to lead and pull the shoulders back and down in varying combinations."

and of course in response to the Hands.



You can also say the pivot (as Homer does) generates power (pivot Lag) because the shoulders are part of the pivot. Which was the original post.

6b

Ain't you scheduled to get married soon? You orta be shamed of yourself.

She may can wear white . . . but you better rethink sportin' in white.

Did you motorboat?

I don't disagree with any of the above


Bucket,

Indeed you are right, I should take your advice more often

Getting married? Congrats to you and the now 'better half." :laughing9

Somebody's Full of......
 

Interesting observation above....

Let's checkout what a GSED has to say...

GI: And what about everything else; feet, knees, shoulders, hands, wrists?

Tomasello: All these body parts move, of course, but only in response to the up-and-down force of the right forearm and the outward force of the hip rotation. Your shoulders, for example, turn only because your hips have turned. There is no "tension" or "seperation" of the hips and shoulders."


So who are you going to believe?

Hips move in response to the right forearm...then lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn. Per 10-15-B.

DG

Truth is, I'm not viable until I have my B.S.

I'll believe HOMER.
I do believe we are talking about the DOWNSWING, right? The first part of the 10-15-B is about the delayed hip motion on the Take-Up.

"Hip Slide starts the down swing"
"Use the Turning Hip to carry the Right Elbow"
"use the Sliding Hip to carry the Right Elbow"
and in 10-15-B- [after back swing] "The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn.

Nowhere in 10-15-B does it give the notion that the hips respond to the right arm moving on the DOWNSWING.

Doesn't TT show the right arm pulling down straight down (re-connect) to the body's side without a hip action on the start down? Certainly without a slide. Is he really using 10-15-C?

Unfortunately, I think that this is a debate that can go around in circles, because there is no differentiation between the actual sequence of events, and the intent of the individual. In other words, many quality athletic motions, including the golf swing, start from the ground up, sequencing through the knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, and hands. However, even though the swing is starting from the ground up, the intent of the golfer may be to move the hands/right shoulder/right forearm/left arm/whatever first, you know? In which case, both sides of the argument could be argued, with no resolution, because one is talking about feel, and one is talking about real, the irony being that both are right (in the proper context). Does that make sense?

What you say make sense in a pure feel system. TGM is more than that.

This has not been a debate because when a question is asked, the reply is an old magazine interview- one I believe was NOT intended to TEACH TGM.
The DOWN Stroke does not in 10-15-B START with the right forearm moving first. The Hips delay or FOLLOW on the up stroke and LEAD on the down stroke. A Hip Slide and Right Arm Throw is different than a Right Arm Throw and turn. Penick's "Magic Move" is simultaneous.
But I asked if this is what TT wants to happen in his stroke- that the right arm precede any Hip Motion. Does is lower hand position make a slide unnecessary? Simple questions - I don't want to read the magazine article again. Maybe some one else knows TT and can help out.

Awesome
 

DG,

I really like TT's approach. How can I contact you?

my e-mail is: whiteydepula@comcast.net

How can I get the Golf Illustrated article?

Dave

Tt
 

Are TT´s videoclips and videoletters representative for his swing theories?

The Tomasello interview not intended to teach TGM. What a hoot!!! You got to be frickin kidding me.

In fact, the article comes off saying that Tomasello is one of a few who knows how to teach TGM.

Golf Illustrated

"Detractors---and there have been many---condemn the system as hopelessly complex and impossible to put into practical use. A.J. Tomasello is one of the very few who have been able to break down this intimidating array of physical laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossible, can leave a student asking "Can the golf swing really be this simple?" Tomasello conveys Kelley's message with a spryness and energy more often found in a college sophomore than a senior citizen. And what a swing he has himself!" GI July 1991

On the next page Tomasello goes on to say....

"Learning the principles took time. I knew that Homer's information was what I was looking for, but truthly, after those sessions it was still over my head. Eventually, though, I learned both the movements and how to communicate them."

Sounds like Tommy is talking about TGM. No mention of any other teaching approach. The whole article is about TGM.

DG

It was to explain to a general audience what TGM is- it was not to teach TGM. Do you understand the differences?????


I have NOTHING against TT. You on the other hand have, in the long run, done TT a disservice. Instead of pasting the same interview and video references for so many years, a little self applied comprehension and thought about your experience would have gone a long way.

The responses become more twisted. The HUMOR. :laughing9

For those of you who want a copy of the Tomasello interview, please PM me. The interview includes a free TGM swing lesson.

DG

What is it that you think is funny? How can you see that interview- posted a a hundred times already- as a TGM lesson. An interview is not a lesson. You are unable to discuss TT- just cut and paste and add smilies.

And didn't you try to implied, falsely, that in 10-15-B that the the right arm is in control of the hip action? That this TT quote from you knw where: "Your shoulders, for example, turn only because your hips have turned. There is no "tension" or "seperation" of the hips and shoulders." is NOT 10-15-B at all. That there is a seperation of Hip and Shoulder motion called Hula Hula. It would have been in your and TT best interest to the questions instead of hiding behind a tape and interview.

On the weekend you run away and left this forum (again), I watched the entire series of videos twice and had a list of questions. I only wish someone that really knew TT and knew TGM can answer them someday. There is so much to learn. In the meantime I started to find answers as to what TT was about with a thread by Yoda in the archives:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2670

Everyone should read this. You will learn a lot about TGM and will understand and appreciate TT more than the way he is exploited now.

Make sure you read it with the 7th edition in hand.

Since day one, I have answered questions about Tomasello, I truly don't know where you have been.

This stuff must be that good for Mike to be giving it this much attention.

Run away from this forum....I have been here all along.

See Tomasello's Chapter series on "Power", I believe it's the number 5 video of that series. I believe that video will answer a lot of questions. A traditional 3 barrel left arm swing produces less than full power (see 12-5-3 of the 7th edition). I certainly don't want to be known as a short hitter, do you?

BTW, Tomasello taught both....standard and delayed hip action.

Mike a question for you....why are you so motivated to disprove Tomasello???

DG

Inconsistencies What?
 

I re-read Lynn's critique of Tomasello's interview, I found no inconsistencies with what Tomasello taught and the references Lynn made to TGM. The reference to Hula Hula flexibility - Homer used the term "coordinate" Tomasello used "no separation"....Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate. Go down to 7-15. Forgetting to shift the weight or clear the Right Hip is difficult if the Hips are initiating the Downstroke Shoulder Turn---in either direction. Study 2-N and 7-3.

2-N. Proper Clubhead control is dependent on coordination the complete Hip Turn with the selected Right Elbow Position (10-3), Motion (6-B-1), and Path (7-3) to avoid collisions as well as for Balance and Axis Tilt. (See 7-15) To accomplish both the Backstroke and Downstroke must be executed as 7-3, 10-3 and 10-5-0 discuss that procedure.

7-3. ...Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the Left Arm and/or COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist without Bending, Flattening, or Cocking the Right Wrist. Practice this first at Impact Fix. So, Right Elbow Action either Powers and/or controls all three elements of the Three Dimensions Impact (2-C-0) per 1-L-9. All this you will come to know as THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.


More on the Magic of the Right Forearm and Delayed Hip Action from Tomasello.

Magic of the Right Forearm…

Tomasello: So consequently the pivot is caused by the hip motion, the arms bring the club up and down. See, that is all the arms do. The arms never swing towards the target. Except on a very short golf swing where we do not have a pivot.

DG: Hmmm ok.

Tomasello: Understand that. So, wherever there is no pivot, obviously the arms must swing the club. (laughs)..right… You can feel that you’re doing it with your hands as in putting…right… but then as we get a little further away on a chip shot it’s your right forearm…right…then we get the pitch shot it’s still the right forearm.. then we get a little further back, the right forearm going up pulls the shoulders, the shoulders pulls the hip, right…now when we reverse that…So, the forward golf swing is merely a reversal…in order…in order, see…alright, now what was the first thing that moved going backward…the forearm, the forearm, now the forearm pulls the shoulders that pulls the hip, right.

DG: That’s your delayed hip action.

Tomasello: you’ve got it…. Now what starts down…see you could do this (pointing to the lower body)…what has got to come first depending on where the hands are located. If there above shoulder high you have to connect before you do this (rotate the hips)……understand that. If you hands are here (waist high) we can do this simultaneously. In other words if the right elbow is still connected….these are separate motions….if the elbow is off the side…this must be first (right forearm start down) we have to connect first before the rotary move with the hip…do you appreciate that one.

DG: Yeah, just the way you describe that there, I can see the connection.

Tomasello: Yes, the right elbow connected. Turn that off and I’ll be right back.

DG: Now where in the book does it say that as far as the right forearm coming down to the hip.

Tomasello: It’s call the Magic of the Right Forearm.

DG: 7-3?

Tomasello: Hmm Hmm. The Magic of the Right Forearm.

DG: When I read the downstroke sequence that’s a reaction to the right forearm as it’s moving down it’s shifting the whole machine.

Tomasello: Sure. Yeah. You have to understand that everything….the procedure or the procedure you had going up is just reversed going down….what was the last thing that moved going up…see it’s the right forearm going up and now what is the first thing going down…the right forearm going down. See…people would have you… it’s the hips first…and immediately what that does if you pull your hips first…watch what it does to your shoulders. The shoulder goes out, instead of down. You’ve got to uncock that right forearm first and that motion is what pulls the shoulders down….And not knowing that can be a disaster…just because you have the bible and you know how to read doesn’t mean you’re going to heaven (laughs).

DG: My problem was other books and other information confusing me with this.

Tomasello: Sure. The explanation for that is that all these other books and tapes are merely opinions of that particular individual thinks he’s doing. Do you understand that? It’s based on personal opinion and feel. It’s not that it’s necessary wrong, obviously if he is getting good results he must be doing something right. However, one of our biggest problems, one of the reasons we have wars is merely communication.


DG

It's interesting that the 4 Barrel stroke pattern in the third edition which is a swinging pattern did not have a "Right Arm Throw Trigger", the 10-20 component is a "Wrist Throw". The Right Arm Throw Trigger appears to apply only to Hitting. However, the Magic of the Right Forearm action of bending and straightening the right elbow applies to both hitting and swinging (Hitting "Right Arm Throw"...Swinging "Wrist Throw").

DG

Fortunately there is no debate that all earthly human movements are precipitated by a ground reaction force. However, this doesn't mean that a golf downstroke is started by the lower body. The downstroke may be described as a harnessing and redirection of a ground reaction force via muscularly driven levers which doesn't begin until the clubhead changes direction. The final muscularly driven lever that ultimately changes the direction of the club can be both hands working together as a force couplet. Of course there are many fine methods of beginning the downstroke wherein the hands are not the ultimate levers or lever to musculary cause the clubhead to change direction, I don't think there is any method whereby ground reaction force alone could cause the clubhead to change direction.

Looking at things your way Delaware is okay by me. I prefer to see the legs pushing into earth as the means to stop the backswing and create the necessary groundforce to facilitate rather than cause the downswing. Once that ground reaction force is created, a golfer can avoid, overpower, or harness it. You can always check your swing after you push into the earth. Using the hands as levers to iniate the change of direction of the clubhead is a superlative way to finalize the harnessing and redirection of the previously created ground reaction force. So start your downswing with your hands and you may do quite well. You may do well to change the direction of the clubhead with your right forearm or your pivot but even those forces must slow down and transfer their force into the hands before impact and even the hands must slow to transfer groundforce into the clubhead before a good impact can happen.

Delaware, you've done a fine job of trying to explain what words will never adequately explain. The human kinetic chain is a beautiful thing that really has no beginning or end until you are no longer able to move. Keep moving your ball the way TT said you could and you'll do better than most for many years to come. Hit it before it moves. Get that groundforce out of your body and into your ball as soon and as efficiently as you can. Be a muscular conduit. Thanks for courage and conviction.

CH
What an excellent and thoughtful post...thank you ...it was an enjoyable read:)

Without wishing to appear impolite or contentious, the post in question fails not only for the vice of uncertainty but because it is just plain wrong.

Coops post is built upon the premise that a reaction force can be precipitated - "precipitated" in this context meaning - that is simply not so. A reaction is a result and not a cause.

There is no natural force on the good Lords planet that can start from the ground up and defy, let alone be made to override, gravity. This, so called, upward generated, "ground force" is simply the equal and opposite reaction to the force the golfer exerts when swinging his club downwards. Newtonian laws apply, where every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Simple test. Address a ball, make a back swing and without further interference from yourself use force from the ground up to bring the club down.

Right, you've got it; it just 'aint possible. The club stays up until you physically exert a force that brings it down , thus causing the upward "ground force" reaction.

DG is not the bad guy in all of this and receives, in my opinion, less than generous consideration from some for his efforts in conveying his understanding of Mr Tomasellos's teaching to us.

DG is merely passing on the message/knowledge given to him and should not be called upon, mostly unfairly, to justify the help that he is trying to give us when so doing.

We should be grateful for his generosity in this regard rather than seek to use him as a "whipping boy" should we hold contrary beliefs.

Delaware Golf, thank you for making available to us your knowledge of Mr Tomasello and his teachings .

Whether members agree or not with what you bring to the forum in this context, your generosity in making this material available to us cannot be denied.

Thank you.

Thanks
 

Thanks Coop and Burner,

After studying with Tommy back in 1993, I didn't believe what Tommy taught was the real deal. It wasn't until 2003 after restarting my TGM studies with a local AI did I really realize the importance of what Tommy taught. All of the things that needed to be improved in my swing could have been fixed by doing the drills that Tommy taught. So, I can understand the reservations by many of the forum members to this way of moving a golf club, been there done that. Today, I guess you could say I'm on a mission to completely learn what Tommy taught and see what are the true results. Hopefully, along the way some of the forum members amateur or professional who have more time than me to develop the TGM swinging and hitting approach that Tommy taught will be able to take this thing a step further than me so the end results will not come from my prespective only.

And thanks to Yoda for giving us a place on this forum to explore and share the end results. I believe the golf swing researcher Homer Kelley would have appreciated it too.

DG

Burner, perhaps I should have said that the downswing is "predated" by 1) the body (primarily the legs) exerting pressure and weight into the earth under hopefully stable feet, and 2) the resultant reaction force of the earth pushing an equal amount of energy back in the opposite direction. The body/brain can then choose to harness this batch of reactive energy and muscularly redirect it via what is known as a human kinetic chain. This energy is ideally channelled via the body's ability to create speed and power by TRANSFERRING or conserving momentum from large base segments to smaller extrmities. The whole process is due to the law of conservation of energy and MUSCULAR stretch-shorten cycle. In your example you are only agreeing with me. You definitely can't swing the club down until you push into the ground. But you don't have to swing. You can just let the undestroyable groudforce energy flow out of your body. You don't have to TRANSFER that momentum via your muscles. So you can physically exert a force into the ground in order to faciltate a downswing but after you do that you can AVOID that energy. You can even stop or derail your downswing once it has started by pushing into the ground again PRIOR to the derailment. In that case you have OVERPOWERED the original ground reaction force.

Your brain has to decide to do something with RESULTANT groundforce energy and it does so by innervating muscle activity AFTER you have used a PREVIOUS muscle force to give you that opportunity. Its all confusing and most people say semantics makes the argument moot. I am not wrong. You can not start your downswing without muscularly causing a ground force reaction but this RESULTANT force cannot cause the direct muscular force required to harness and redirect that very same resultant force. The RESULTANT REACTIVE ground force does not swing the club down for you. Your muscles can only do that with a DIRECT FORCE. You will NEVER convince me otherwise and I'm not trying to be polite.

Thank you.

Interesting comments about groundforce....after practicing what Tomasello taught me....the two areas that get worked out the most are the right forearm and my feet. Both tend to be sore and the muscles in the right forearm feel slightly tight consistent with a good workout. The interesting thing is I have no back pain or tightness at ALL.

DG

DW you were right.