does the left arm rotate?
 

Does the left arm rotate on the backswing? If it does how much?

Jerry,

The left arm does rotate on the backswing while staying striaght via extensore action. So the rotation is occuring from the shoulder joint. The amount of rotation being used varies upong the destination of the backswing, it can also vary due to the hinge action that is going to be used, angeled, horizontal, or vertical, and finally it can vary due to the approach procedure and delivery paths.

These are just a few of The Golfing Machine Principles that can affect the amount of left arm rotation. I'm sure there are more and I look forward to others posts in this thread.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

A swinger's startup swivel is a 'true rotation', 90 degrees 'turn' back, 180 degrees 'roll' through. It is important to keep in mind that this is a sequenced release, uncocking the left wrist THEN rolling. It is the pivot and the straightening right arm that imparts the 'roll' through.

A hitter would in many respects look like rotation, but the power package alignments are simply staying in their relative positions so any visual appearance of turn/roll is that of the entire power package, and not the lead forearm.

No quick fix answers here
 

I would define left arm rotation, as external and/or internal rotation at the shoulder joint of the left arm.

and this would be making something in the basic thread more complex.

Didn't Homer say something along the lines of treating a complex subject as simple only makes it more complex.

Sorting Through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray

What does rotate mean?

What I mean by rotate- is to turn to the right in the backswing and to the left on the forward swing.

My next question is when does it rotate in the backswing and forward swing?

I think he means rotate as to turn, a straight rod rotating around the AXIS of its extension.

With 10-18-A the left wrist, arm(from left shoulder pin to the hands) and club are turned or rotated ClockWise.

This is done while mantaining the clubhead all the time in its angular motion, all the time in its single plane, that is the sweetspot plane.

Turning of the left wrist is executed until getting the left wristcock plane of motion into the sweetspot plane. In other words, this turning is executed until
the entire left arm, the clubshaft and the back of the left hand are positioned against the same flat plane, the sweetspot plane. So the left flying wedge plane matches/gets into the sweetspot plane.

So then, after this the left wrist now would be TURNED, after turning. And hands, clubshaft are now in the sweetspot plane, they were not (before) in the sweetspot plane (because clubshaft rotates around the sweetspot not viceversa) while the whole time the clubhead was and will be in the intented sweetspot plane.

Clubshaft and hands have come to be in the sweetspot plane, they were not before in this plane because of nº3 accumulator angle. But always the clubhead remained in the sweetspot plane.

Don't complicate it I'm still incubating some concepts, so all this is with zero shift, 10-7-A when I refer to a single/unique plane although I feel Homer Kelley is more referreing in section 10-6 about clubhead planes rather than clubshaft control, because clubshaft motion is three dimensional until it gets (and hands get in, left flying wedge) gets into and match/lie the sweetspot plane intended for the stroke purposes. While clubhead travel/trajectory is 2 dimensional, always the motion of the clubhead is along the sweetspot plane, a flat surface circular, 2 dimmensional motion.

Now the machine is ready to begin the downstroke.

People are free to say if this comment is right or wrong. If it is right then an important part of the golfing machine concepts have been cleared out.

Don't ask me. I am going round in circles to figure that one out. :laughing9

Assumed to be, in this context, the pronation, on take away, and supination, through impact and beyond, of the left forearm. A natural occurrence in a properly executed swing which requires little, if any, augmentation.

This is why Homer Kelley wants the hands to be Educated. The Hands control the whole Enchilada.

You can turn (to the right clockwise) the hands on plane early- from the address position as the first move. This fans the clubface open as the hands continue the back stroke. You can take the back square for foot or so and then turn them on plane. Either way this is called Standard Hand Action. A turn to the right and a roll (to the left counterclock wise) back to the left.
** see note

The second way is called Single hand action. There is no turn to the right of the hands therefor no turn roll to the left. It is the body turn that makes them appear to turn and roll.

IN EITHER CASE: the hands control the club- the forearms follow suit. I never gave much thought as to what by forearms were doing- just my hands.

Might not be the answer you were looking for but....


Burner- bad pun :naughty:

** additional info. The Hands turned to the right need a roll back to the left and is part of roll/swivel/horizontal Hinge action/swivel that is used by Swingers. That is why this Standard Hand Action is perfect. Slicers hardly ever fully return the hands via the roll, let alone HH and swivel and finish the pivot.

Blimey, look at the time! :offtheair

12.3
 

12.3.0.22 DELIVERY LINE ROLL PREP

The only line on the page Bold and Italicized?

Left arm rotates according to the rhythm of the stroke, i.e. hinge action accompanied by a hands controlled pivot.

Don't fall into the position golf trap. There is rhythm and pace of the stroke. You must have both from putt to drive. You don't have to intentionally "do" a flat left wrist roll on the downstroke, but you must be aware of it and set up for it. Remember on a full stroke that the shoulder turn is rotating at least 45 degrees from the top of the stroke to impact.

When discussing turn, roll, and hinge action, Homer did say that it was "easier for him" to take the club away (turn) in the same manner he wanted it to roll on the downstroke. (my words).

All that matters is the 3/4th of an inch during impact and the smooth motion that got you through it.

Flat left wrist, smooth rhythm, straight plane line, and a planned hinge action.

Any course, any time.

Do you think that it is a good idea tto have them mirror the style of rotation on back and downswing?

ie. early rotation to plane / standard wrist action / swinger generally keeps clubface rotated against plane for longer time in downswing with later rotation back through square on downswing? Similar feels to hand motion...??

Having watched and rewatched "the pp3 -where R U" so many times now i have suddenly thought that the timing of the of the downswing rotation of sweetspot from against the plane(open face to target line) back to approaching square for impact is governed by who long into the downswing your hands maintain pps quarter turn rotation lag sensation.

Keep pp3 on top of the shaft for a longer time in downswing and you delay your accumulator 3 rotation??
is that right?
Is that useful ?... it sounds like a good thing for max speed...
is this how one controls the degree of overlap of accumulator release in sequential swingers style release??
Is there a relation to how long pp3 rstays quarter turn rotated and:-
-delivery path of hands
-timing of plane shifts in downswing
-pivot
- degree of overlap in sequential release (6-M-1)...

6-M-1. DOWNSTROKE SEQUENCE
The Downstroke sequence of the Stroke Components is dictated essentially by Centrifugal Force; "Over¬taking" by a lagging Component ends at the instant it achieves an "In¬Line" position with its immediately preceding Component.

Centers and Accumulators can be sequenced, overlapped, omitted, em¬phasized, triggered, and timed as the player's understanding and skill permit; But the Club's Swing Radius (6-B-0) ends at the "non-lagging" Component nearest to the Clubhead. The "Centers" of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employed Component nearest to the feet in the fol¬lowing order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand rotation. For maximum Power, the position must be taken that will allow Delay of the Release until all Components, except the Right Foot and the Right Shoulder, have reached, or passed, the Line-of-Sight-to-the-Ball, per 6-B-1-C. Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their "In-Line" Position. None should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag) until well after Impact. (See 6-H-0.)

Power Accumulator Release sequence is #4, #1, #2, #3 - regardless of which ones are being employed. Any Accumulator number may overlap or replace its preceding number but cannot precede it. Increase Overlap to increase Thrust - decrease Overlap to increase Velocity.

i am sure there is some connection between al these aspects... just not sure yet... any guidance please?

It depends.
 

Mine doesn't for putting, chipping (angled hinge for both) and pitching (vertical hinge).

Mine does in shots using horizontal hinge. That's how the club(head) can be kept on plane.

How much? I have no idea, as long as it's on plane, assuming the left (lead) arm is straight. In other words, the "law" does it for you. Actually, it also automatically does the right arm fold, left wrist cock and right wrist bent.

Ok...
 

The local rotation of the left arm relative to itself is dynamic in terms of degrees which changes as the shoulder motions displaces it and however it raises upwards in relation to the plane angle variation you wish to use. Its 'turned' state however, always maintains a constant relationship to the straight plane line.

Calling Annikan Skywalker,

I believe the left arm connects to the shoulder by a "ball in socket" joint because of this any motion of the left arm back and through will have external and internal rotation (not always in that order) whether you are tracing a straight line or not. The amount of rotation may be very small but there will be some.

I will wait for someone with a much better understanding of biomechanics than I to post and confirm or deny my conclusion above.

Sorting Through the Golf Nut's Catalog.

B-Ray

The shoulder is a ball and socket joint, but it's held together and supported by soft tissue, not the ball and socket structure itself. Because of this, it is the most freely movable joint in the body. The movement of the left arm back and through, and the rotation of the arm, are independent of each other. So the arm dosen't necessarily have to rotate as the arm moves back and through; those two movements need to be coordinated.

That said, I think that it is probably unlikely that the arm wouldn't rotate to some degree, due to the movement of the club during the swing, unless the player does something (either intentionally or through poor mechanics) to prevent it.

Bigwill,

Very interesting post about the soft tissue......and the fact that the shoulder is the most freely movable joint in the body. I learned something today......where do you get your biomechanics information from I would love to learn more. I still have a hard time believing though that the left arm can truly move straight back with a club in hand.....maybe in theory it can move straight but I have a hard time believing this is what it's actually doing.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

I get my info mainly from my education. I'm training to be an x-ray tech, so I have to know that junk:rolleyes::) . I agree with you about the arm moving back without rotation. Like I said before, unless someone does something, maybe intentionally or through bad swing mechanics, it's not likely that their arm will move back without rotation; the golf club dosen't want to swing that way. And it isn't too comfortable, either.

Doin' What Comes Natur'ly
 

Do something for me everybody:

Pretend you are holding a comb or brush. Now begin to style your hair. Assuming you have some, of course; otherwise, pretend you are a stylist working with a customer. :)

Imagine you are looking into a mirror and comb away: the front, the sides, the back, all 'round. Use the other hand to help the 'smoothing' process. Note...

1. The hand only holds the comb or brush.

2. The forearms rotate naturally, as they should.

3. You don't think a thing about it.

So it should be during the Golf Stroke.

Unfortunately, many people do strange and unnatural things with their arms and hands and bodies during the Stroke. Usually, these contortions are the result of incorrect concepts. Only when the correct concepts have been learned and applied will the corresponding motions be brought to their natural state.

And only then will you begin to play your best golf.