Right arm swing
 

Is it theoretically possible to swing(pull) with the right arm? doesnt the right side always hit (push)?

Pull with both hands
 

Absolutely. Better power and control.

The right arm can do either.

In TGM terms... Right arm swing = the orbit of the clubhead changes from the left shoulder to right elbow. and it actually is bad for the elbow. 10-3-K... flat left wrist no longer an essential.

TGM... 2 choices.

The arm either Push push pushagainst the shaft till both arm straight and hand below waist, ( axe, hitting, rotational )

Or the arms
will Pull the shaft and the elbow straightens straightens to both elbow straight and hands below waist. that is swinging. rope handle technique.

subtle but Huge difference.


If fast , Swing. Less tiring too.

If strong , Hit.

yes
 

You can pull with the right arm- it becomes active. A pull is linear and the clubhead changes position with the grip end during release by a whirling arc. It doesn't matter what pulls, as long as the shaft is pulled.

A right arm push is cross line- driving from the inside to the ball in a straightline, a line that is angled/crossed to the plane line, by pushing the back of the shaft.

PM DelewareGolf for more information, he is the guru of the right arm swing.

Yes, provided the right elbow stays in front of the right hand and the palm of the hand is horizontal to, and faces away from, the inclined plane. The right hand is supporting and pulling along with the left.

This "pull", however, will turn in to a push as these orientations change - i.e when the elbow is overtaken by the hand and the palm of the hand rotates from the horizontal into perpendicular to the inclined plane as it turns to face the target.

Re Right arm swing
 

Thanks for all intiated replies! However, stubborn as I am, I am still not convinced that one could swing(pull) with the right arm since according to the laws of physics a force coming from the rear will always be a pushing one. I feel somewhat confused.

The pull starts the downswing. That force is coming from the front with either hand. Can you not pull a rope from the top right to the bottom left with the right arm? It is CF that whirls or whips the clubhead to the front.

Pushing a club also starts will a pull until the hands are set to push off the pivot. That is why the hands go to the 'end' and not the top- less pull to where the hands do the job.

A push is straight line. All pulls are arcs.

10-19
 

It's all about the acceleration. There are only two options, and they happen to be mutually exclusive. You either accelerate the golf club longitudinally or radially. I think 7-19 and 10-19 talk about this.

Longitudinal acceleration is possible with the left arm, and/or the right arm.....I think the only thing that matters is how the club is moving/accelerating. Using the right arm to accelerate the golf club longitudinally would produce a 'right arm swing.'

Labrador - think about a pool cue stick. When you move the cue stick back and through the billiards ball you are moving the length of the stick longitudinally. Like this:

.
|
|

If you took the cue stick and turned it 90 degrees from the ball like this:

.
-----

and used the length of the stick to move the ball, this is radial acceleration.

I think the same applies to the clubshaft.

Labrador,

Your concern is a good educated deduction and correct. as the right elbow straightening is a push nonetheless..

However , the difference is very subtle Yet VERY huge once you understand it and know its application.

for right forearm pulling...

1. The right elbow is in front of the right hips before and after impact and the pivot delivers the right elbow.. For a really extreme way of pulling... please refer to Lorena Ochoa, or Paula Creamer.. the extreme way they drag their elbow make them look like a rag doll. of course, not all pulling have to be that extreme.. Look at Hogan, Sam Snead for more or less standard way of pulling.

2. The right elbow is passive and the pivot pulls the left arms and the right arms-- so gravity, centrifugal and centripidal force will straighten the right elbow till both elbow straight. However, the right arm still pushes .. but pushes not Powering the stroke however merely providing structure(extensor action)

+ what 6mike says... to a certain extend ,, it feels like Pushing through impact, and pulling at start down... I suggest you study Tom Tommasello videos.. 2nd letter + arm ..


It took me a 9 months to understand this simple yet" complicated "concept.. but its like Christopher Columbus.. once u know it.. its easy.

Re right arm swing
 

Thank You all guys! I think I´m more with You now! The pool stick example was very enlightning. If I got it right,using a pool cue stick to punch the ball with the far end (or the middle part) of the stick would be comparable with the right arm karate chop action associated with hitting. Or?

for hitting ; when your right arms, and elbow straigthens , push to provide power,, the arms FANS open.. and the hand is perpendicular to the plane..


However ... with swinging... since the initial motion is Pulling.. the Sweetspot or force need to be "behind" and parrallel to the plane.. Thus centrifugal force will provide the force uncock the left wrist then roll the left forearm, at the same time the force/sweetspot/Momentum/clubhead will move forward and thus "release". Thus what TGM call mastering the THROWAWAY, different from CASTAWAY ...

its not impossible to use a Fanning motion with pulling( no karate chop)..but just not efficient as you loses the power of the ROLL...

Thus Karate chop/ wrist throw is very consistently mentioned.

A cuing is opposite of a golf swing. I would not use that..personally.

I would rather use a rope with a weight at the other end as an analogy... if the shaft is a rope with a weight at the end.. from start down , it can only be pulled and centrifugal force is forcing this rope to be straight and eventually centrifugal force is going to make the weight move down then forward(release)..meanwhile keeping the rope tight.

Right Arm Can Swing
 

Homer had no problem with the right arm and swinging. However, he was reluctant to have the beginner swing with the right arm. I believe Homer wanted the beginner to have control of the flat left wrist and achieve a solid understanding/foundation of TGM before attempting to move up to Full Power with the right arm. I believe Tom Tomasello wanted to change that and have the student use the Magic of the Right Forearm from the start. For example, checkout video #2 from the letter series....you'll find Tommy start with chipping and work it up to a full swing. Totally makes sense. Reference 12-5-1/2/3 in the book.

Trust me...I have no right elbow problems using the Magic of the Right Forearm....swinging or hitting..None...Zipo...and during the off-season, I mainly swing weighted clubs to keep in shape.

Also....I highly recommend the extensor action drill that Tommy demonstrates in the Australia video series...that drill will show you how the right forearm should move in the swing...especially the downswing. Watch what happens if you try to go out at the beginning of the downswing.....look what happens to the shoulders.....you'll find the first motion in the downswing is exactly that.....DOWN. Please experiment at slow speeds....really slow. That drill is worth its weight in gold and should be practiced regularly.

DG

You will not have elbow problems with the Magic of the Right Forearm since it is NOT right arm swing exclusive. The Magic of the Right Forearm applies to ALL TGM strokes.

Homer, who warned of elbow problems was concern about the right elbow being the center of the swing instead of the left shoulder. Whether one experiences a problem is debatable but Homer never said that 7-3 would be the cause. 7-3 belongs to all machines.

Yes , I totally with 6mike.

Swinging the right forearm is not the same as Right forearm swing.

Right forearm swing in TGM terms= replacing the center of the swing from the left shoulder to the right elbow. and its Very bad for elbow..read 10-3-K. In this case.. the flat left wrist is NO LONGER an Essential.

Swinging the right forearm .. well.. A hit and a Swing ... still need to "swing" and keep rhythm, and elbows still straighten and "push" to release. I initially could not understand what Tom Tomasello tried to explain until. the incubator cracked. He is simply explaining the importance of the Magic of the right forearms and how to execute it with the intent of the least compensation.. In this case It would not hurt the right elbow Unless it was jerked...

Letter 2 .. of his video is therefore so so so important...

I have David to thank for his posts, I reread and reread his posts and re see resee tom's video until... chirp chirp... the incubator hatched....

Lynn loves the dowels ("send in the dowels"). He said to practice with them everyday, even it just for a few minutes. Why? To feel 7-3. The movement of the right arm is every machineheads magic, Hitters have it, and Swingers have it- with either arm. I don't want anyone to think it is proprietary to right arm swinging.

Nuke99,

Please give us the details on the comment "Swinging the right forearm is not the same as Right forearm swing." Exactly what do you mean by that comment??? There is no comment in 10-3-K which says using the right arm to swing is very very bad??? I would recommend getting the 7th edition....10-3-K has changed.

DG

Hokie ....
 

7-19
The "Right Arm Swing" is simply 10-3-K with loosened Wrists (7-1) and longitudinal acceleration using 7-19-3 above. Only with this "Rope Handle" procedure can the Right Arm be said to "Swing"--and still per 1-L-9 and -10. But wih the Axe Handle procedures there must be a straight line piston action to avoid injury to the right elbow ligaments. So, if there is a twinge in the elbow, you are Swinging your Right Arm.

10-3-K
The center of the Clubhead orbit is readily transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow. The Right Arm now is actually driving the Clubhead rather than the Left Arm and the Flat Left Wrist is now help- ful but not essentials.....


word for word... but swinging the right arm and right arm swing .... they are not the same no?...

the magic of right forearm is 7-3 ... thus, there is a difference I believe.

First, I would suggest getting a copy of a webster's dictionary and lookup the word longitudinal....I believe websters captures the exact meaning of longitudinal that fits with the golf "SWING" and 10-19-C. Then I would re-read...10-19-C, 7-19, 10-3-K and especially 7-3 (Multlipe times, especially the last paragraph). You're getting closer to another ahhhh moment.....then watch the number 5 chapter series video on "Power" and the number 9 chapter series video on "hitting and swinging" and listen for the part where Tomasello says "One Smooth Motion".

DG

I don't really get into the push versus pull debate and all of the debate over what is the center of the swing because I really don't care about that type of stuff. All I care about is learning and knowing how to execute a proper swing that allows me to be most effective on the golf course. Don't get me wrong, I am not implying that the debate is pointless, I simply focus on how to execute and my learning stems from that. Consequently, I will tell you that right arm swinging as defined by Tomasello works magnificently! :laughing9

I started as a hitter and transformed myself into a right arm swinger even though I still "hit" my chips. It was pretty simple to do using Tomasello's drill combined with Peter Crokers explanations. Particularly helpful is Tomasello's arm only drills as mentioned in Video 2 by Delaware Golf in an earlier post Interestingly enough, Yoda taught me the same drill to learn extensor action during one of my lessons with him some time ago.

Try it, I think you will like it!!

E.

Extension without Tension
 

Cheers Duke,

Yes, the extensor action drill is an excellent drill. Cheers to Yoda and Tommy for teaching it. And hey....Cheers to Homer for creating the concept!

DG

At first I was really confused when I studied these video 3 months back.. I even asked the question.. since Tom said push push push .. is he hitting?

Until...
--------------------
6-H-0 Imperatives

C. Take all Strokes to the Both Arms Straight Position (8-11).

A HIT or swing... so in a way... the right elbow have to straighten thus both have the element of "push" , Active by force+extensor action. Passive by extensor action,+ Gravity..
-------------------
3-F-6. EXECUTION All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper executions. Neither the Hands nor the Club are flipped or swished around haphazardly. blah blah...the whole paragraph...

No matter its a HIT or a swing.. It have to look like a "swinging" ...
Then... I understood.

Hitting does not give anybody the permission to HIT or hack at the ball. 6-H-0 , 3F6...

Though,
This is right arm swinging , or pushing... this is to describe an action(7-3). And what you had explained. Everything is fine until...


from the bible of TGM... I think its different from the "Right Arm Swing" , which is a named method. described in 7-19, linked to 10-3-k. Changing the center of the clubhead orbit .. thus bad for the elbow... Different.. but have the same name ...

Correct me if I am wrong David or anyone ..

Hmmm....where did Tomasello say Push, Push, Push????

DG

I have a list of problems, though I enjoy the listening to TT teach.

The right arm swing, which I never heard TT say, but, the stroke in Chapter Two is closer to a Hit stroke- IMHO. He stops at the End instead of the Top. He repeats Hit Down on the ball- Hit Down on the ball. No CF like the True Swing Stroke in Chapter Two that uses CF to throw out the club- the Law of the Flail. A beautiful stroke, btw. The Hit stroke in chapter nine is, as TT says, a Punch shot ("kick right and lose yardage.")- not the Hit Stroke Lynn Blake teaches. TT knew as much about the Hit Stroke as anyone of his time, or even up to 2003 -- very little, a punch shot at best. TT doesn't fully cock the left wrist, sometimes a zero out of acc2 in his Hit Stroke. If that punch shot was low and left, why not change alignments at impact fix and address? The Hit Stroke was not what TT wanted you to do.

Homer loved the Hit Stroke. He thought the Hit Stroke would CHANGE THE GAME. It certainly Changed Ted Fort's Game.

I am not criticizing TT’s Hitting procedure- it was what that stroke was thought to be, I believe. But I do feel that his right arm swing, is closer to a Hit stroke with HH action which would explain why the other Hit procedure is a punch shot.

Tommy used the Magic of the Right Forearm (7-3) for both hitting and swinging...bottom line....one of the major concepts of TGM.

What Tommy taught was TGM....bottom line.

Who was conducting a PGA sectional meeting with Homer when Homer passed away....Tomasello. Tomasello did not deviate from TGM. Please do not make out Tomasello as a disconnected Authorized Instructor.

DG

actually he said hit it hit it hit it in chapter 3- hands ... when he mentioned ben hogan. while he "pushes the hand out"

10:00 minutes of his video letter video 2.. push it down and out .. whatever u want to call it ... ( he said whatever you want to call it ! ^_^)

11.00 minutes of letter video 2 . DRAG DRAG DRAG.. another clue.. that its not pull motion through impact.. A different interpretition of the wrong thing.


dark red colour is what he said... the others my comment.

Nuke,

I'm sorry you're in a state of confusion with what Tommy taught....it takes many hours to study to sort out what's on the two video series. Keep at it and eventually you'll get it. It took me approximately 10 years of off and on study to figure it out.

DG

Actually Comdpa said it clearly to me and it took me a while to understand this.

Tom is just teaching 7-3.. Swinging ..even in letter 2... (pls see my last post where he is quoted.) and in his short strokes .. performing mini push basic stroke ( his version).

Don't get caught up with terms, literally, for example .. DRAG does not mean literally dragging . Hit does not mean literally Hitting.

Must study everything in context ... and must try to understand what the AI and Homer Kelly trying to tell you instead taking word literally...

I finally could appreciate more of what Justin told me at one stage where i am super dooper confused " Who cares what its called, as long as you know how to do it and do it correctly".. Wise word from a "young" man.

Why i am confused?... I think i understood finally.

BTW, Tommy taught a 3 barrel hitting stroke (right out of the book)....Lynn's teaching a 4 barrel hitting procedure. I hope that clears up the confusion. I believe Tom Tomasello thought deeply about how to apply TGM to the golf course.

I believe everyone needs to get past the stroke patterns and see how Tomasello brilliantly approached the game through TGM. That's what seperates Tomasello from the rest of the AI's. Tommy gave the golfer the ability to use hitting and swinging with the three hinges in the most effective and efficient manner (Power and Precision and the ability to face any golf course condition). I have yet to see a more logical approach.

DG

I didn't. I do think that you feel any comment as an attack on TT. I am only commenting on what I see. Where am I wrong? WHY IS THAT WRONG? My point is that the Hit stroke that TT demostrates is not the Hit Stroke we know today. Not an attack, just an observation. Observations should not be a problem to you, should it?

I never said Tomasello deviated from TGM. And I never said Tomasello as a disconnected Authorized Instructor. What sentence even comes close to that? Which one? I DID say that like his Hit Stroke prodecure leaves me with questions. And all his procedures work fine but that alone doesn't disqualify question or comment. Not much of a forum without pushing our education forward.

Does the Hit stroke prodecure of TT look anything like the Hit Stroke procedure of Lynn Blake? TT taught a punch shot and that is why I think his right arm active swing is closer to a Hit with HH action.

I think you are over protective of TT. My comments and questions are legit. These observations and questions should not bother you.

6b

Well, I did not study enough or know enough to be qualified to 100% agree with you .. But I do support David when you said that.
1. Tom spent the most time with Kelly. So i believe his understanding of TGM is closest to whatever Homer Kelly wants us to know. And he communicated the idea to us, his way.

2. If we can understand Tom's explanations, we could understand a huge part of TGM. Every AI have slightly different procedures, or interpretitions , different ways of explaining. There is obviously no best way or worst way. As long as eventually we understand and the incubator hatched.

3. When he quoted saying in (video letter 2 .. TIme 10;00) push your hand down and out ... Or whatever u want to call it.. Now thats confusing right? but its not actually if its meaning is understood. he is still teaching swinging.. but arm still need to be straighten .. Why did he say Or whatever you want to call it.. meaning you can call it extensor action if anyone wants to . Evidently he explained the left wrist uncocking by CF ... he is teaching swinging. .. Using Layman language so he hope the one seeing the letter could understand.

4. He mentioned DRAG ( 11:00 minutes of letter 2.) as A interpretition of the wrong thing. One just cannot just drag the but way past impact... DRAG does not mean that... he is pointing to a common misconception. And that is what I thought to be at one time.

To explain the TGM concept.. he used different words and unique way , which may sound confusing but actually enlightening when all of these are studied in context. To the very best of my knowledge, Tom's video is all TGM and 100% in line with TGM .. just explained differently and I guess Tom really intend the letter to be easier to comprehend. But using a different word in his letter/video really lead people to assume he is not teaching TGM... I think thats what happened.

Tomasello combined 12-1-0 and 12-2-0.....generated by the magic of the right forearm. There really is no debate.

However, I can tell you hitting as a primary procedure was not recommended. Tomasello mentioned that in the Australia series and he also mentioned that thought at the PGA sectional meeting with Homer by his side. Homer did NOT pipe up and say "Tommy" that's wrong.

Remember my comments are legit. Yeee Hawwww. As the Guiness folks would say "BRILLIANT". Pass me another Brewski....one week to Superbowl time. Go Bears.

DG

Since you say there is no debate-I'll guess I will wait for someone else to answer my questions. I don't want legit comments from you but a serious debate with answers about concerns. I'm afraid you have no ability to answer them. You are too close to TT.

The clips/chapters show his method of teaching three stroke patterns of his design to students and NOT a course in TGM. I enjoy the series and think is is a nice way to introduce some concepts to students. His stroke patterns are nice. I have questions- you have an idol. I want answers, you say no debate. No problem.

For years who used the phrase Right Arm Swing- you changed it to Magic of the Right Forearm. 7-3 is used in all strokes, especially with a RFT.

One last point - Extensor Action is in inline, outward pull. It doesn't move the left arm. I know TT knows this but IMHO, he gave the imprerssion that it drives the left arm.

Only asking questions- I would NEVER allow a student in any kind of class to worship instead of asking questions or except "no debate" as an answer.







One more point-

I'm here to add value (I don't need debate, I'm finished searching)...Tommy added value to TGM and to the games of a lot of golfers. Endless debating at this point for me is a waste of time. Remember, Homer said with the 7th edition...."The research is over". For me it's time to go from reseacher to performer.

Mike good luck in your search. I'm done butting heads with you, don't look for any more replys from me. It's a waste of my time in responding. I also won't be responding to inaccurate commentary from other forum members regarding Tomasello's approach. If you want a response from me, be accurate with your quotes. Transcribe your quotes "word for word". Thanks.

DG

but David,

Wouldn't it be really nice if you could put in another way for us Newbies to understand what TT is trying to teach? TT had tons of time with HK and you spent tons of time studying TT. There is a lot of things TT said that need extra clarifications and I certainly hope it comes from you, as you had finished research and should have no problem explaining in a more comprehendable way. Who else? Would not be Peter Croker ( he was the one that got disconnected AI)

Mike posted some question. I posted some silly questions in the past ( took alot of time to understand a small part)and will continue to post more. We want to know more, and Mike said some good points, I feel it should be clarified unless we want TT to be misunderstood and mis interpretition.

Good- I didn't ask for debate- I ask questions looking for more of an answer than "TT is right so shut up! " I didn't ask you to answer anyway. You told me before you won't address my concerns.

I do believe TT is teaching his pattern, the way any AI would. I have questions as it relates to Homer Kelley's book.

took 10 yrs?

Debate
 

6b Mike why waste brain cells. TT hit fat shots in his video. :laughing9

My guess is Tommy may not have been playing full rounds of golf at that point. In the video from Australia it appears they played a round of golf the day before. If you have not played a round of golf in a while how do you feel the next day. My muscles are you normally tired/fatigued. Also, Tommy may not have been playing a lot golf at time (States side) because of his sick wife (Paraplegic). I know when I studied Tommy in 1993, it appeared that he was not teaching much, if at all, his wife was in really bad shape at that time. I'm lucky I got to study with him. In the Deitrick letter video, I have the original video, the editors on this website cut out video of Tommy talking about his personal problems (caring for his wife). So please, until you have all of the facts, you have to watch what you're saying, you maybe knocking someone down without realizing it. With Tommy's instruction, I don't hit fat shots...very clean divots. Trust me, I have Tommy on cassette talking how well he played when life was normal.....all rounds of golf par or better.

DG

Knocking someone when there down
 

My guess is Tommy may not have been playing full rounds of golf at that point. In the video from Australia it appears they played a round of golf the day before. If you have not played a round of golf in a while how do you feel the next day. My muscles are normally tired/fatigued. Also, Tommy may not have been playing a lot golf at that time (States side) because of his sick wife (Paraplegic). I know when I studied Tommy in 1993, it appeared that he was not teaching much, if at all, his wife was in really bad shape at that time. I'm lucky to have studied with him. In the Deitrick letter video, I have the original video, the editors on this website cut out video of Tommy talking about his personal problems (caring for his wife). So please, until you have all of the facts, you have to watch what you're saying, you maybe knocking someone down without realizing it. With Tommy's instruction, I don't hit fat shots...very clean divots. Trust me, I have Tommy on cassette talking how well he played when life was normal.....all rounds of golf par or better.

DG