Stationary Head - To be or not to be
 

There has been an additional text to the second paragraph on
2-H in the 7th edition.

"The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationay Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time"

How do you read this? What does it mean for you?
What is your interpritation(?) of it?

It Is What It Is
 

It means...

1. Set your head where you want it to be at Impact; then...

2. Leave it there until after the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position) and into the Finish. In the interim, allow your Body (Hips and Shoulders) to move as necessary to Load, Deliver and support the On Plane Club.

So.....
 

Although he writes that the stationary head is NOT mandatory,
this statement and your description makes it mandatory!

Could this not be the end of the debate?

The Real Debate
 

Amen Corner,

If you moved your head by x inches in any direction, are you able to move it back x inches?

All the time?

Per 1-L-1, "The Stationary Post (player's head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc)"

With that, the Real Debate is...why wouldn't anyone want a centered arc?

I don't know where I got this, probably a little from a lot of places.

Stationary Head is stationary head, but that doesn't mean that it may not move. It is just not suppose to move on its own, initiate motion, etc. It can move by pivot motion IMO.

One must remember that golfers body must be taken into account, not all bodies have the flexibility to make shoulder turns and/or hip rotation and not cause other parts of the body to follow.

With a machine, the top point would be fixed unless an unbalance situation would arise. Then the machine would be redesigned to establish a proper balance for the motion to prevent the top from moving.

With the golfer's body, flexibility many limit pivot movement that can be performed prior to head movement. There must be a limit to the amount of acceptable movement, rule of thumb is it should not exceed movement past the right knee. Movement up and down or side to side on its own is unacceptable. If the movement of the head by the pivot is such that the to maintain body balance by other components, a problem is at hand IMO.

Clarification
 

Comdpa,

Let there be no mistake, I do understand the concept of Pivot Center.

The reason of my thread is that there has to be a reason why it is put in the 7th edition, and I have talked to other AI´s about the subject, and I have received different interpretations on this sentence.

You can read it as the hinge pin should be vertical during the hole swing or that the pin can tilt to one side or the other as long as the end in the ground do not move from it´s position, which is precisely between the feet. The mental picture I have in front of me is like a metronome.

How do you interpret it?

See 7-12 . . . I think that should clear up any interpretation issues. The title of the section is Swing Center TRIPOD. The head does't move, but what is UNDERNEATH it may. And in 1-L #1 it says STATIONARY Post (player's head). The post is IMAGINARY . . . It ain't the spine. It is a line drawn up between the feets and up through the mellon. Also see Axis Tilt in the Glossary . . .

Mechanical - To change directions, the helicopter pilot alters the plane of the rotating blades by tilting their axis in the new direction.

Golf - To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips.

Further Clarification
 

Are you not talking about a stationary head?

Translation problems
 

Compda,

Sorry for the poor clarification, I will blame it on that english is my third language.

The point I want to make is that on page 29 under 2-H, regarding the Hinge Pin through the stationary head down to a point right between the feet, Mr Kelley suddenly In My Translation, makes the stationary head mandatory. Which could end the debate that our humble host has with the host of another TGM-site!

Or is my translation faulty?

Nailed
 

I think you just hit the nail on the head...:)

No Time
 

I don't have the time to post to this right now- but I would say that you haven't translated it correctly. Hopefully I can get back to this later tonight but in the meantime- Here are three important clues 1) You need to take into account the entire context of the paragraph- you can't pull out a line of this paragraph by itself- that would be a complete misquote, and 2) If you use all of the clues possible that Mr. Kelley provided then it is crucially important that you look at his use of fonts and capitalization and 3) Understand that he understood at that time the "two" theories of head still and rotating around the spine- I might be going out on a limb but I would suggest that you read the paragraph as if he is addressing those two different camps- and clarifying his position on that point.
Maybe someone can put the entire paragraph up in it's entirety and EXACTLY as he typed it- as a starting reference point.

I'll type it up tonight . . . Mikey . . . wonder if the 8th edition will have anything on Rolling Heads or Defrosting Heads?

bucket
 

Thanks Bucket!

I'll take some time to post then- Never will be an 8th edition but just dreaming for a minute- you know he never had hitting and swinging broken out in the 1st edition. Then later he started to identify Hitting versus Swinging. Then towards the end of his life he theorized that he might need to have a book on Hitting and a separate book on Swinging- now that'd be a nice selling point for an 8th edition. A Hitting Book and a Swinging Book. Oh Ya- and probably doubling your gross revenue- not a bad marketing idea either- (DG- That's a subtle hint for you to jump in here and input some ideas (i.e. Thread Jack) so that we can decapitate the Bucket Man!)

Waking up now- back to the regular scheduled program.

Are you sarcastic, bucketman?

Not about typing it up. I'll put it up. Just don't have the 7th at work.

Bucket sleeping?
 

It appears Bucket is snoozing:sleepy: (Hey, I've gotta find a way to use every one of these emoticons!)


2-H Second Paragraph 7th Edition
The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius. Swinging from the Wrists, the Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow, the Waist or the Feet, show it to have just too many exceptions. Through the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory. The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time. “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis, the spine. See 7-14. In this area the Left Shoulder is helpless. The geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with the Right Shoulder, there are no guide lines for Left Shoulder control of the Right Shoulder.

Remember what i said in a previous post- pay very special attention to the fonts that he is using- the words 1) AT, 2) ALL COMPONENTS, and 3) Body Location and Position- are KEY elements that you want to notice and understand why he is emphasizing them.

Again, I'd keep in mind that he IS addressing the issue of head still or turn around the spine in this paragraph. He probably had people debate the same issue with him. And I know from audio that he was aware of the Head Still camp and the turn around the spine camp- but he "preferred the concept of Head still" so that your vision wasn't altered and looking down at the ball - if something changed then you knew that you moved.

Here's my quick analysis/translation:
1st Sentence: The Spine is the Center of the shoulder turn- not the swing.
2nd Sentence: Swinging from the wrists only - say right around the green, or the "left shoulder only" like in the 12-5-1 basic motion- etc. - those don't have the spine as the center of the stroke.
3rd Sentence: Through the head PIVOT CENTER is recommended but not mandatory. So for a pivot center the Head is recommended. Because the eyes stay still and if the perception of the ball on the ground- changes then you know you moved.
4th Sentence: The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time.
So he is saying - Hey, the spine isn't really the center of the swing, the Head isn't really the center of the swing- NO particular body part is or has to be the center of the swing- the important thing is that there is a center and that ALL COMPONENTS rotate around it. That Hinge Pin would go from precisely between the feet to a point at the top of the head- Notice he italicized the word "at"- that is crucial in my mind- We know up to this point that he is not making head still mandatory because we've got to consider the "rotate around your spine camp"- but typical to Mr. Kelley - it wasn't you could do either, although you can- No, he's looking for the principle that encompasses them both. That's the Hinge Pin that say goes from between the feet to at the top of the Head- say at impact fix- from there you just need to rotate around that- however you want to do it. Without regard to Body Location or Position i.e. without regard to whether the head stayed still or rotated- obviously that refers to any body location or position but in regards to our discussion here- the head seems to be of particular importance.

5th Sentence"The On Plane shoulder motion is only possible by tilting its axis, the spine"- Kind of a final statement that the spine tilts - so it really isn't a center- as opposed to the Hinge Pin concept- and then he flows into finishing the paragraph identifying the on plane right shoulder motion.

My final thoughts: From a player's perspective - this is really splitting hairs and no place for take a side/stand. When you look at video do you want your head flopping all over the place. If your biggest problem in your whole movement is whether your head is turning slightly off the ball or staying exactly still- then you're probably a plus 2 handicap- and Mr. Kelley is saying it doesn't matter dude! As long as you have a centered motion! For me personally it just seems like there are better things to worry about- this is more of a mechanical/theoretical discussion.

That's just my "guess"- or my perspective- someone could have a completely different perspective- and I'm not thinking of anyone in particular - I really do mean someone- anyone- and that's great because this just isn't a subject matter that I could see spending alot of time and effort "arguing" about. Different ideas - post them for others to learn- that's my only reason for posting is to hopefully shed some light on an area that someone is confused about.

Finally, On the practical side I would really say that the "Head Still" is a result of an efficient movement- if it is moving then you need to ask yourself why- bending your knees too much?, etc. etc.- To focus on keeping your head still without focusing on the elements that make it move- really is a dead end road. Head movement is the effect of some cause- trying to hold your head still when it is moving really is just a bandaid manuever.

In the Golfing Machine you would be primarily concerned about what the shaft, head and face are doing- of the GOLF CLUB - BUCKET!

precision
 

Homer’s words carry extreme precision, so I would put as much credence into his recommendations as much as his essentials. Since not mandatory as just that “NOT mandatory- NOT a requirement, NOT something needed to be done,” it only implies that another way can work.

Is it wrong? No, just not without compensation, not without imprecision.

Mike and Co!

Thanks for the time you have put into this thread and helped me interpret the additional text in the instructor´s textbook.:salut:

Thanks Mike, that clears up a lot of the confusion on this issue to me. I'm not a +2, so there are other things for me to worry about. I really appreciate your effort in writing and explaining this.

Nice post Mike, I like it. Many good points.

Homer quote
 

From Lynn's class with Homer:

Homer said, "I see great hazards in 'between the shoulders' because it tilts your head. And, you can't tell whether you've swayed or tilted your head."

His words, not mine.

How can you not tell if you have swayed?

If I can't tell if I've swayed or moved my head, I must have ZERO body awareness. When I sway, I feel more pressure and stretching in my right hip.

I also think the statement "I see great hazards in keeping the head still, because people keep it too still which can lead to a reverse pivot" could be just as valid.

IOW there are extremes either way, the best procedure, in my mind is somewhere in the middle. If you can keep your head precisely centered and perform the 3 imperatives, do it. If you cannot, find something that allows you to perform them.

I don't want to fight, I just think there are 2 sides to every story.

I don't like the term "Reverse Pivot" :)

(as Mathew's post above was edited from the original, I have edited mine to make for comparative friendliness)

Oh. Why do you say that Mathew? :)

What else would you call it?? :)

?? :):)

10-14-b
 

The pictures with Slide Hip Turn(10-14-B)... LOOK like what many would call a Reverse, but it must be useful, if done corrrectly. I think C. Montgomery probably uses this, and very well.

Now... 10-14-D is actually called a Reverse Hip Turn. Do any of you employ this in short shots?

Ain't Necessarily So
 

Lagster,

The photos referenced illustrate the Slide Hip Turn (10-14-B) of the first five editions -- that is, Slide with no appreciable Turn.

Photos 10-14-B #1 and #2 do an admirable job of illustrating this Component as described.

Then, with the publication of the 6th edition, Homer Kelley dropped a bombshell:

The definition of 10-14-B changed to Slide with a Delayed Turn.

Unfortunately...

There was no change in the illustrations. :(

And now, in the post-humous 7th edition, the Slide Hip Turn (10-14-B) has replaced the Standard Hip Turn (10-14-A) as the Hip Turn Variation in the Drive and Drag Loading Basic Patterns. Which is okay -- it emphasizes 'Parallel Pivot' Motion (3rd Edition) -- except that...

The 'Slide with a Delayed Turn' remains illustrated as a 'Slide with no appreciable Turn.'

Botttom Line:

Homer Kelley never intended the 10-14-B photos to represent the Hip Turn Component for the Uncompensated Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. The Pivot is the Rotor of the Stroke. It generates the necessary circular motion and should be so illustrated.

A pivot is an act of turning around a point and reverse means going in the opposite direction.

The shoulders nor the hips should be turning around in an anticlockwise(right handed) direction on the backstroke....

Ok well what about the slide in the hip action going in the reverse direction - hence reverse hip action ...nope...

According to most sources - its a slide coupled with a head moving forwards....

Sliding - well thats going in the direction you should be going anyways - just going too far.... that can't be 'reversing'

Ok so what is the next point you could possibly make - the pivot point reverses forward in its direction ... but that makes me confused - how would then concentrating on a stationary head make you 'reverse pivot'... Think about it...

Thank you for your more descriptive answer.

You are right....this is dumb.

Geometry...Not Opinion
 

Great post, Mathew. And from the perspective of a man disciplined to rendering geometrical relationships, not opinions.

I got a "collegial" jab, I feel honored. :)

In the Ring
 

No jab intended, glcoach. Thank you for your inspiration. :)

To me, it very obviously has nothing to do with what direction the shoulders or hips turn...

I realize you're trying to relate it to TGM terms but I just think "reverse pivot" is pretty ample as a term to use casually.

Almost everyone knows what it is, even if their definition is a general one.

I wasn't even gonna get into the whole pivot center debate this time...I have my mind pretty much made up about that one already....BTW it includes both sides...but leans to one admittedly.

I just thought that reverse pivot was a common enough term to use casually.

However, for the record, now that you got me thinking, I think that using the eyes to monitor if the head has moved or not is of pretty minor usefulness. IMO.

Actually technically speaking, the words 'reverse pivot' encites a turning movement in a reverse direction from its normal manner....

Nothing is reversed.... I could understand it if it was even partially right - but its all wrong....

Peer beyond the surface and you'll find they don't really and neither do alot of pro's - the fix by substandard pros is to sway....

Who said anything about speaking technically...

C'mon man everyone knows what a reverse pivot is.

The spine is reversed....

i.e. tilted towards the target.

I think most people know what a reverse pivot is- general definition.

Birdie....

The spine is tilted 'towards the target' ...

The hip action is slide-turn on the backstroke where else is the spine mean't to go

who's who
 

And, to whom may we attribute this quote, in red?

Here's another quote without anonymity. This is from Homer himself: "I think holding the head still has tremendous advantage."

I don't want to fight either, but there are two sides: Homer's and someone else's.

Ted,

Without a doubt you have addressed one of the main sources of golfing errors - unsubstantiated sayings that merely sound right.

I am not going to argue with a guy who spent the better part of his life researching the golf swing and validating his data.

But are we just gonna throw out random quotes or are we gonna talk about the whys? Do we understand the whys?

I don't know what you mean.

random?
 

I would say, "bake at 350 degrees for 30 minutes" would be a random quote.

I would also say a quote from an expert with 42 years of experience on the subject matter being discussed would be pertinent.

"We" is rather inclusive, but, yes. "We" meaning "me" understands the whys, as I've read page after page of posts, listened to close to 100 hours of Homer’s teachings, and learned from THE AUTHORITY on the subject, Lynn Blake.

As a minor aside, giving 1300 to 1500 lessons per year gives one some insight into testing theory. Seeing this "theory" in application makes me a believer.

It simply works.