Never move the hands with the hands???
 

I have seen this in a few threads: 'Never move the hands with the hands.'

If we dont move the hands with the hands, then how do we move them? The essence of The Golfing Machine is the hands controlling the pivot - they are the command post, including but not limited to, acceleration and thrust control.

Basic Motion zero's out the pivot and shoulders and thats where we all start. Sorry to get off track, it just seems to me one of the terms that can be miscontrued, misinterpreted, and misapplied.

Patrick

Hogan didn't believe it!
 

'Never move the hands with the hands.'

Hogan dropped his hands/club down from the Top about 6" by pulling the assembly down with his right thumb and forefinger. We know this because he showed this to John Schlee, telling him it was "the magic move". He didn't just tell him, he stopped Schlee at the Top, grabbed his clubshaft, and pulled it straight down.

Re: Hogan didn't believe it!
 

MJ,

Straight down toward the ground or down plane?

This is interesting.

Thanks!

R

Plane Shift
 

Straight down, shifting to a shallower plane.

Re: Hogan didn't believe it!
 

MJ,

:?: :?:

I have two different tapes showing Hogan swinging, all clubs, and this move is not apparent in either of them - even in the slow motion sequences.

Is it a visible move or a "feeling" move.

Burner,

This is paraphrased from Schlee's account, describing what Hogan said and did. Hogan did this to Schlee at a static position while he was stopped at the Top. At this point in Hogan's swing, his hips are moving laterally and turning, which could make the downward move look more downplane than straight down.

rwh,

Hogan told him to pull down with the right forefinger and thumb. The way he described it, the Right Shoulder stayed where it was, and the hands/club dropped.

How is this different than using #2pp?

John Schlee was a competitor at the time? :D

Well, it seems that using PP #2 would use the Left Arm muscles vs using the Right Arm muscles by doing it with the right forefinger/thumb.

Schlee was on the tour at the time. I think Hogan wanted to help him because he saw in Schlee the same desire and work ethic that he had.

I have seen 3 players who do this move that Hogan showed Schlee. Bill Kratzert, John Mahaffey, and Sergio Garcia. I have swing sequences of Kratzert and Mahaffey that show this definitively. At the End, Kratzert has his hands above his head and the next frame shows his hands have dropped 12" straight down below his shoulder, with his shoulders and hips still fully turned. Mahaffey's drop looks to be about 8".

Charles Howell does it too....brian mentioned it is a plane shift from i believe the turned shoulder plane at the top to the elbow plane, this shift is the cause for such the big drop

The Vertical Drop Of The Angled Line Delivery Path
 

This is the Angled Line Delivery Path of 10-23-B. That is, "the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Elbow [Plane] Angle" before they begin their Straight Line drive "directly at and through the Aiming Point."

Re: The Vertical Drop Of The Angled Line Delivery Path
 

Did Mr. K ever miss anything? His ability to point out variations is/was amazing.

Re: The Vertical Drop Of The Angled Line Delivery Path
 

Right there in plain English, and I've somehow managed to not see it! Thanks.

But the statement, "before they begin their Straight Line DRIVE" reminds me of our conversation in which you said that in a Swing, the hands don't drive toward the Aiming Point, but rather you are only aware of their direction toward the Aiming Point. This makes it sound as though 10-23-B is only for Hitting, but of course that isn't true. So what gives?

One Car -- Two Drivers
 

The Hands are always driven toward the Ball or alternative Aiming Point (6-G-0). That drive is supplied either by Centrifugal Force (Swinging) or by Muscular Thrust (Hitting).

When using a Hit Stroke, Angled Line Delivery Path of 10-23-B was the missing part in my machine. I found it in 10-14-B while taking out the slack without realizing it. The previous posts jarred my subconscious. What a flash of light as I read those words:

"the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Elbow [Plane] Angle" before they begin their Straight Line drive "directly at and through the Aiming Point."

And MJ’s: “Right there in plain English, and I've somehow managed to not see it! Thanks.”

Glad my body knew what to do while waiting on the noggin to wake up.

Thanks guys.

Mike,

Are you using standard hip action with an angled delivery path?

DG

Help me out. I’m using 10-14-B, a hip slide to take out the slack. This lowers my hands on plane before driving them down to the ball. I may be using 10-23-B or A but looking in the book- maybe C or D since I still bring my hands up a bit higher than they should.

What has been key for me this week and working on your swing has traits of Alzheimer's- you discover new things over and over again- has been the hip slide which lowers my hands before driving hard down into the ball.