Physics
 

One of the benefits of learning TGM is the Science. There are probably many that have started into the study and application of TGM with little or no Physics backgrounds. They actually developed an interest in physics through their study of G.O.L.F..

TGM could be used as a tool to help foster the learning of physics in youth, that ordinarily would have NO interest in the subject. I believe I read that this actually happened to one person on this forum.

There are probably also some science and physics buffs out there that simply enjoy that part of TGM. I see nothing wrong with that. These people should, however, have a very good understanding of Chapter 14, The Computer, so as to be able to positively utilize the information in their golf game.

My background is not extensive... but I will start the discussion if anyone is interested.

Physics... as I understand it, consists of 4 basic factors. From these 4 things... MASS, SPACE, TIME, and ENERGY all physics is comprised.

MASS-- matter, weight, etc.
SPACE-- distance measurements
TIME-- measured in seconds, or parts of a second
ENERGY-- the capacity to do WORK(Force x Distance)

One can easily see how all these factors have involvement in a golf stroke. Lets start with MASS.

HOW MUCH DOES (MASS) INFLUENCE THE DISTANCE A GOLF BALL CAN BE STRUCK BY A PERSON WITH A GOLF CLUB; THE MASS OF THE PERSON STRIKING THE BALL, AND/OR THE MASS OF THE GOLF CLUB?

Re: Physics
 

ok, i'll bite...i think mass influences distance via the equation "F=ma", where "F" is the force imparted (ie by the clubhead to the ball), "m" is the mass of the thing imparting the force (essentially the clubhead mass IMHO), and "a" is the acceleration of the thing imparting the force (ie the clubhead)...i don't think the mass of the person has much of anything to do with it except that bigger/stronger people may be able to accelerate the club faster than a smaller person of the same skill level...hence why 155 lb pros can hit further than 250 lb ams (they have more skill) but the long driving contest guys are often bigger (skill+strength)...as an aside my belief is that the issue/importance of clubhead velocity is overemphasized...i have seen posts in various forums that cite studies that show pro-swings (w/o ball contact) have max velocity AFTER impact point...why all the emphasis on clubhead velocity then?...well because your max acceleration is usually just BEFORE your highest velocity and as general rule if the club got to a higher max velocity, it was very likey also at a higher acceleration unless the time frame is very different...anyway, there's my $0.02:-)

-hcw

Do you think a Hitter with more Mass(bigger Launching Pad) has more of an advantage? What about the swinger?

As far as the mass of the club... remember the Featherlights?

I would think 1-D, Structure lends itself to part of the answer.

Hitters do have a shorter swing length so mass would probably aid them while a swinger can have a longer swing length and move quickly up to a point, the point being the mass is too much for them control or sustain any amount of acceleration/speed.

Also 6-F-1, Timing adds to the definition of which may be better for a hitter or swinger.

It does come down to the individual's traits, I believe what you will find in TGM in regard to this topic is merely a guideline, in otherwords one hitter may have more success with less mass while a swinger may in fact have more mass and be successful. But the norm or a starting point would suggest a Hitter is more likely to be successful with more mass than a swinger.

hcw,

The spot ain't called sweet for nothing. hahah. Most golfers (non machiners) would benefit with less swing speed in order to hit the sweet spot. One MAJOR benefit from TGM is that we hit the sweet spot more often most non pros.

6b

you talking to me? :-)
 

...if so, IMHO, then more mass only helps if can accelerate it the same, whether it be the mass of the person or the clubhead...

...no savvy Featherlights, but from the name i'll guess they were lighter clubs that proposed to allow you to hit farther...again, in my view less mass means you have to up the acceleration...so if they were half the mass, i'd say you'd have to double the acceleration to stay even...but as 6b pointed out, most of us (or at least I) would be a lot better off hitting the sweet spot a little slower, more often....

-hcw

For any given person/swing there should be a 'sweet spot' of mass vs. speed. I personally love the feel of a heavier club. I keep my swingweights up around D4-D6 - perhaps a 'feel vs real' issue, but it really helps me ensure that I am truly 'swinging'. The other advantage is that the more mass, the harder it is to be 'off plane'.

While there is certainly an issue with having clubs that are 'too heavy', I think a big reason that kids often have great swings is that the clubs are heavier for them. That really lets the swing happen.

I'd be curious to get input from those equiptment guru's out there on exactly how to find the best combination of mass vs speed vs shaft flex from a physics perspective.

Gentlemen,
The design of both the golfing and human machines must be able to "handle " the demands of both it's mass and it's acceleration. For instance...If you had an 18-wheeler coming down a mountain side at 65 MPH and it approached a sharp curve...if it didn't slow down it would slide in a "straight" line of the mountainside... same scenario with a Porch 911 traveling at 65 MPH, it wouldn't have to slow down as much and be able to maintain the "Arc" of the curve...Why? Well the RPM's of the Porche's wheels are higher, it is lighter and it has a smaller radius and Moment of Inertia compared to the radius and weight of a longer and heavier 18 wheeler whose Moment of Inertia is much greater. Bottom Line ...is the machine designed for "hauling Freight" or is it designed for "hauling ___"? Rule for this Forum...Not allowed to use profanity...but you know what I mean!!! Do you think this has anything to do with the "Endless Belt" concept?

Annikan

PS. If Strong...Hit... If Quick Swing...If Both do either or Both!!!
- Gospel According to Homer

The real question is can a Hitter successfully match a max lag, Snap Releasing Swinger? I don't think so. I believe that's like asking the semi to match the porsche's cornering ability. The most effective Hit uses a big pulley, the most effective Swing, a small pulley.

Re: you talking to me? :-)
 

Featherlites!
In the 70's a hobby turned into a business, club repair and assembly/fitting and I continued for about 15 years. Many side benefits, free golf, etc., and an opportunity to learn many facets of design/repair/fitting/shaft flex/torque/bend points, on and on.
I assembled several sets of the then new featherlites and experimented with the proper shafts for B swing weights, etc. Another story.
I found generally I could gain distance w/ the Featherlites but was usually all over the place re. the intended target and distance was undependable. Although not featherlites, some of the early Calloway Irons, the Wilson Reflex Irons seemed to provide skewed distances.
Although we are discussing swingweight here, IMHO it is almost a non factor, but over all weight of the club is very important to the conversation.
I ended my gain of knowledge re. shafts, weights, etc., in 1993 so can not discuss the current equipment on the market.

I believe Dave Pelz's company started the Featherlites in the early 80's. A few tour players used them. I think D.A. Weibring may have won a tournament with them.

I did hear from a former tour player that most of the guys using them had lead tape all over them... so they must have lacked something... MASS. They were OK out of good lies, but did not have enough MASS to be good out of heavy rough.

Now... concerning the MASS of the player. There is a theory that if TENSION is introduced into the player during the swing, especially IN THE ARMS during the downswing, the player will be taken out of his CORE, and strike the ball ONLY utilizing the weight of his arms, rather than the MASS of his entire body. Do you think there is something to this? It seems to me it may have some merit, especially with Rope Handle Techniques.

i think that if you have lots of tension in the muscles of your arms, then you can use them very well to swing (ie accelerate the clubhead)...try this, bring you arm to elbow 90° angle and do a body builder bicep flex so that your whole arm has tension...now try and straighten you elbow...i can't...if my tricep is already tense, it can't contract any more to do what i want...i think the player above is using only/mostly the pivot to accelerate the arms, not nearly as good as using pivot and arms...it oughta keep those wedges intact though!:-)

hcw said..." I think that if you have lots of tension in the muscles of the arms, then you can use them very well to swing"

I think what you are saying could work, but probably better for a Hitter.
6-B-1-D-- Extensor Action-- "This stretches but does not move the Left Arm"

I heard Extensor Action once described as... "extension without tension"

There are probably also different TYPES of tension. A feeling of being athletic, confident, and ready to produce a dynamic stroke, is different than tension that is induced through anxiety, apprehension, nervousness, or poor technique or concepts.

When you get that confident, athletic, FEELING, and are producing quality shots, then you are on to something. This probably feels a little different for everyone.

lagster,
i have not totally figured out what is meant by "Extensor Action" and i don't have the book handy, so i'll leave that for the more knowledgable....the second thing you are describing i think is what is called muscle "tone"...your muscles can run a spectrum from totally relaxed/flaccid to totally tense/contracted...to be useful they need to be somewhere in between and indeed there needs to be some baseline "tone", a little contraction that can be increased or decreased depending on the task at hand...in fact decreased tone can be sign of a problem (ie disease state) as can increased...the condition you descibed where:

"TENSION is introduced into the player during the swing, especially IN THE ARMS during the downswing, the player will be taken out of his CORE, and strike the ball ONLY utilizing the weight of his arms, rather than the MASS of his entire body."

...doesn't make sense to me, as i don't think the body's mass hits the ball...the analogy doesn't work for me, so i rethink it as describing too much tension/contraction in the arms which doesn't allow them to be "athletic, confident, and ready to produce a dynamic stroke"...but if the image works for you (meaning anybody) that's great...i totally agree that all of "This probably feels a little different for everyone.'" and that's why Bobby Jones responded to the question of "Can you show me how to swing?" on one of those instructional films saying that "I can show you the basics, but you'll have to work out the details for yourself"

-hcw

"I can show you the basics, but you'll have to work out the details for yourself"

That's exactly what Hogan meant when he said you have to dig it out of the dirt. You can tell a 16 yr old how to slip the clutch on a manual transmission car, but he'll never really know until he's stalled it a few times.

hcw... Extensor Action-- Feel this by slipping a rope or string around your left shoulder. Get your golf posture and let the rope hang down. Now, gently stretch the rope by the action of the bent and on plane right arm. The stretch direction should feel below plane. To do this with your left arm... feel the stretch through the #1 pressure point(right lifeline) on the aft positioned left thumb, or the #3 PressurePoint(first joint of right index finger), or both. This is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect of TGM. Keep this FEEL throughout the stroke.

lagster, et al.,
if i underrstand the above correctly you mean for the Extensor Action to feel as if it is keeping the left/lead arm straight as the right/trail forearm moves it in the BS...does that sound right?

-hcw

hcw,

Yes, the action of the right arm, is what keeps the left arm stretched and extended, or "straight." In SWINGING, the left arm is like a rope. In HITTING, the left arm is more like an ax handle, but ideally there should still be Extensor Action present.

This is correct in the context of Homer's recommendations, but limits the player to a large pulley stroke. Small pulley players such as Howell, Couples, and Mickelson do not use extensor action, but have relaxed trail sides to allow the narrow downswing.

mj,
up eary too i see...i have seen the terms large/small pulley stroke, but am unclear exactly what it means...could you explain?..thanks!

-hcw

Generally speaking, it's where the straight line path of the hands ends and the circular path begins in the downswing. For a delayed release Swinger, it's the release point or the point where the Left Wrist cock unloads. In order to minimize the pulley size, the Right Hand stays close to the Right Shoulder on the downswing.

hmmm....so does that imply/necessitate a steeper path with small pulley?

I can see the “belt” from the top of the back swing down along to the release of accum#2- the path of the hands. But I also see the wrist action of #2 and #3 as a small pulley onto itself regardless of where the hands in relation to the right shoulder. Am I off target here?

I agree with the 'never move your hands with your hands', but disagree that this has much to do with your hands being close to your right shoulder. You can have your hands quite well extended and still not move your hands with your hands. See Tiger.

This is the idea behind Mike Austin's "keep the 7" - extension and lag.

Extensor Action -- Whose Your Friend?
 

Sorry, MJ, we are at odds here.

Extensor Action is present in all great Strokes, Sweep Releases (Large Pulley Wheel) and Snap (Small Pulley Wheels). This is true whether the Stroke is driven by Centrifugal Force -- passive Right Elbow -- or Muscular Thrust -- active Right Elbow.

The 'narrow' Downstroke you refer to is simply the Straight Line Delivery Path (10-23-A or C) as enabled by the Hip Action (Standard or Delayed per 10-15-A or B) and its Hip Slide (per 10-14-A or B).

Not steeper, because a large pulley, max delay wrist uncocking, snap release swing is as steep, but the shaft is not as close to the Right Shoulder. This is the action of T Woods of 1996.

rwh,

I believe that Doyle and Hebron are talking about transporting the hands with the pivot. I'm talking about the the hands dropping to release point during the pivot, the shaft staying close to the Right Shoulder and the Right Elbow moving in front of the right hip. This requires a tension free trail arm, which makes Extensor Action impossible.

Yoda,

I guess that depends on how you judge a "great" stroke. For example, Hal Sutton used an ABSOLUTELY tension free Right Arm in a Pivot Controlled Hands Swing, which he called a body swing. In fact, during a tournament, he walked around the clubhouse with his Right Arm hanging lifelessly at his side not using it for any activity, with the idea that he would be much more unlikely to use it in any way in his swing. His Right Arm was limp in the swing. This reempts either version of Extensor Action. Since this swing won the PGA, I would classify it as a great stroke.

There is NO WAY the small pulley Swinger gets his hands to a position even with the trail thigh with the shaft 30 degrees above horizontal, with even the slight amount of Right Tricep thrust as that required for EA. The best that the big pulley Swinger can do is a horizontal shaft when the hands reach the trail thigh.

From The Top -- Your Way
 

MJ,

For a number of reasons, the ideal Swing Plane is the Turned Shoulder Plane (10-6-B). Further, this may be accomplished with Zero Shift (10-7-A) -- that is, the Hands adhere to this Plane Angle throughout the Stroke and execute a Straight Line Delivery Path (10-23-A) to the Ball.

However, the procedure you have described -- "the hands dropping to Release point during the pivot" -- is a viable alternative and is catalogued as the Angled Line Delivery Path (10-23-D). That is, as the Leading Body Transports the Lagging Power Package to Release, the Hands take a nearly Vertical path to the Elbow Plane Angle before they drive directly at and through the Aiming Point.

There is no inconsistency here. There is only Homer Kelley's genius:

Straight Line or Angled Line. Your choice.

And there is no right or wrong. Only personal preference.

This is truth.

This is The Golfing Machine.

Can the compensations
 

I'm going for the easiest route to solid golf. Tho my flexibility makes it no concern to me, would you say that many pro swings are along the lines of 10-7-C Master Yoda?

hcw... Extensor Action-- Feel this by slipping a rope or string around your left shoulder. Get your golf posture and let the rope hang down. Now, gently stretch the rope by the action of the bent and on plane right arm. The stretch direction should feel below plane. To do this with your left arm... feel the stretch through the #1 pressure point(right lifeline) on the aft positioned left thumb, or the #3 PressurePoint(first joint of right index finger), or both. This is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect of TGM. Keep this FEEL throughout the stroke.[/quote]

Lagster, my left arm keeps breaking down through impact, would extensor action be a good thing to correct this? If so how does one learn to do it?

[quote="hackster"]hackster,

Yes, Extensor Action would be the way to go!

First, practice the rope drill posted earlier in this section. Attach a rope around your left shoulder. Notice how the action of the on plane right arm keeps the rope gently stretched.

Then, starting with short chips, and pitches... work on this same feel, but with your left arm. Gently stretch the rope like left arm by exerting some pressure on the #1 pressure point(right lifeline)by slightly pulling on the left thumb to stretch the left arm(6-B-1-D). You should also feel some pressure on the #3 pressure point(first joint of the right index finger). Keep this same extension pressure back and down. Be aware of the downswing extension, so as to not have downswing blackout.

Stick Shift
 

Many players set up with Low Hands -- lots of #3 Accumulator -- and 'hanging Arms' (Right Forearm not On Plane) and then use a Shoulder Turn Takeaway (which puts the Club too low). These players have little choice but to at least Single Shift (from Elbow Plane to Turned Shoulder Plane) and probably to Double Shift (return to the Elbow Plane during Impact). So, yes, you see a lot of that.

This topic was originally about Physics, and we started with MASS. We got into Extensor Action, and a few other things along the way. Extensor Action does, however, help give more MASS. "This relives the Wrists of considerable responsibility and gives this drive a much more massive kind of support while freeing the Wrists for a sharper focus on Ball Control." 6-B-1-D

The next thing was SPACE... MASS, SPACE, TIME, ENERGY

SPACE is measured in terms of DISTANCE(inches, millimeters, etc.)

I'll start... At what point does the added advantage of a longer club (bigger arc) become a disadvantage for increasing the distance of a drive?

There is obviously a point where the club becomes too heavy(45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50"...)? There was a guy on the Senior Tour that used a very long driver, Rocky Thompson, and won a tournament or two.

I agree with Lagster!, but as far as the length of the club, I dont know?

The Lab
 

Okay, guys. It is apparent we need a new section on the Forum: The Lab.

Here we can discuss topics that would challenge Einstein and bring a tear to Stephen Hawking's eye. Ideally, we will keep in mind that we are a Forum inhabited by Golfers, but other than that minimal constraint, this will be a no-holds-barred Geek Stronghold. Frontier subjects such as kinesiology; the wonders of how we learn; and even Higher Mathematics And The Cure For The Common Slice will be daily grist for our mill.

Professor Hawking -- Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University and author of the popular best-seller A Brief History of Time (1988) and most recently, The Universe In A Nutshell, would be particularly proud of our 'no boundaries' charter:

"My goal is simple. It is complete understanding of the universe, why it is as it is and why it exists at all."

:shock:

This is the kind of thinking that packed the lecture hall at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation last year in Dublin. Move over people. You ain't seen nut'in yet!

Meanwhile, the 'rest of us' are invited to join me tomorrow in The Clubhouse Lounge. I've got a story or two to tell you about Rocky Thompson, that long-driving senior Lagster referred to above. You see, it all started with the Killer Bee Driver... 8)

Rocky Thompson, and a guy named Wedgy Winchester could/can really bomb that ball with the LONG DRIVER. I think Wedgy actually won a national long drive competition with a club that he normally used for trick shot shows.

Back to MASS for a moment...

There has been talk on other threads that MASS is not much of a factor.
I believe it is. It is the EFFECTIVE transfer of MASS to the ball that is key. The more effecient golf strokes transfer MASS from the person and club into the ball more effieiently, through factors like FOOT LOADING, EXTENSOR ACTION, LAG LEAKAGE PREVENTION, ETC..

ALSO... the actual MASS of the person is somewhat of a factor. A 100 lb. golfing machine should hit the ball futher than a 1 lb. golfing machine, with the other factors being equal. Jeff Sluman and Ian Woosnam are pretty long, but they are not as long as Big Cat(Evan) Williams or Jason Zubeck.

This is just one factor, there are many others, but it is a factor up to a point. The effieient transfer of MASS is the key.

Absolutely. Mass matters, all other variables being equal.


I love the 'lab' addition.....

I can see it now..... "String Theory and You - How to improve your putting through nano-vibration and worm holes"


(kidding of course)

Thanks, yet another addition to the site that should be very helpful! Great job guys....


The fun continues! Gotta love it - EdZ

hi again,
i disagree, sorta...in reality there is no actual "transfer of mass" from person to club (ie atoms don't flow from your hands down the shaft to the clubhead for impact and then back up again, youch!:-)...if we can agree on that then i think the force you put on the ball can be defined by F=ma (force = mass X acceleration)...what you are calling efficient "transfer of mass" i think is either good vs. poor contact (ie solidly landed right hook vs. glancing blow on jaw) and/or efficient acceleration of the clubhead so that the max acceleration is at impact...both of these are skills that are performed using the "factors" you listed above...as i said before i think the mass of the person is only a factor in that, generally speaking, bigger people have bigger muscles that can produce more acceleration...however, bottom line, i think we are talking about the same thing just using different descriptors.

-hcw

Transfer of Momentum
 

HCW,
Good points-

To clarify - to get that clubhead accelerating maximally, you do need to be very good at "Transferring Momentum"- from one joint to another, and eventually to the clubhead. Your point is well taken that we are not transferring Mass but we are transferring momentum (massxvelocity) That's what lagster is referencing.

Below is a link to one site that describes the basic momentum concept.
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssc...tum/u4l1a.html

Below is a link to another site that describes in their article, the concept of "Transfer of Momentum"

http://www.exercisephysiologists.com...nicalCONCEPTS/

Mike O