Trail Elbow and Hips in Downswing Question
 

I have struggled to reconcile what I think I'm seeing in slow-mo videos/clips of pros and what I believe is good advice on hip movement.

In the vast majority of pro clips, down swing with club shaft parallel to target line, the trail elbow is at the trail hip or a hair in front. Coming into impact, the hips are open. Various Ben Hogan clips show this well. A favorite is Couples - by the time he reaches impact, his hips are very open.

On the other hand, I have read the posting here by Matt and VJ where they caution against hip spinning, use of the dowel-in-the-belt loops to stop the spinning, etc. I have seen Tom Tomasello's video on this site where he clearly shows keeping the trail hip back and swinging through and past the restrained hips (i.e. keeping them closed coming into impact).

I can't believe 'open' or 'closed' hips - as a swing thought - into impact are both correct. What seems to work well for me is the Tomasello approach of keeping the hips closed and driving the trail elbow past the hips which then open up somewhat coming into impact - but the hips are 'following' the trail elbow, not leading or connected ala Hogan.

I've tried to decipher this and remain confused because (1) excellent pro level swings certainly appear as trail elbow riding the trail hip into impact with hips quite open at impact (2) Tomasello and others advise keeping the hips closed and swing 'past' them.

Thoughts appreciated.

Thnx for the reply. I'm trying to decipher that, too.

In your terms, what is Tomasello advising in http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...hapter3BB.wmv?

And, in your terms, what is Ernie doing with trail elbow at http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...s/els/els.html ??

Thank you.

Well, here's a thought...

There's a difference between a normal pro's address position (Mr. Hogan's, for instance) and that taught by Machine advocates. Pro's have been taught to let their arms hang straight down with no thought of Wedge alignment at address, so put yourself into such a position and try moving to Impact Fix. Don't your hips have to open more than if you'd started in your usual (Machine-like) address position?

The only difference between a normal "pro's" address and a TGM address is the on plane right forearm which some pros actually use.

Plus if you're a swinger (like 90% of pros are) you setup in adjusted adress with the right forearm above the plane a bit.

In Real Estate it's location, location, location....In TGM it's Interpretation, Interpretation, Interpretation.

If you watch all of Tommy's videos (Australia and Myrtle Beach videos) you will truly understand what Tommy means by keeping the hips back...in the downswing the hips should NOT be held back physically by the GOLFER...the hips should "respond" to the action of the right forearm. For further details on this see Mark Evershed's (former Tomasello student) book "The Golf Solution" and read up on the concept called "quite body".

When I asked Tomasello (October 1993) where in the book does it say to start the downswing with the right forearm. Tommy's response was "7-3" and the Magic of the Right Forearm.

I actually have Tomasello on cassette tape saying he thought Hogan really swung the golf club like the way Tommy taught the swing. Kind of interesting...Tommy referenced the picture of Hogan on the Five Fundamentals by saying Hogan's hips haven't moved much in that picture...by the Christmas holiday I'll try to transcribe Tomasello's comments on this topic, I'll posted it on this thread.

DG

DG,

Just to say that if you transcribe these comments, I for one would really appreciate it!

Thanks,
Chris

Thnx - I'd welcome that and whatever interpretation you can add.

In his clip at http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...Chapter3BB.wmv Tomasello is pretty clear about hips following the trail elbow. Even though he states they should be kept back, I'm sure the feeling and intent is to make sure the hips follow rather than lead.

I think his major point is the student he is addressing needs to lead with with trail elbow and arms into a hit with the clubhead past his left hip to get a horizontal hinge action with the clubface.

Tomasello is pretty clear that early hip action will turn the shoulders and lead to 'over-the-top' faults.

same advice Ted Fort gave me
 

Ted basically told me the same thing that Tom is advocating in that video. It may not be quite that pronounced in full-speed, but if you want to cure the OTT move, that's the best way to do in my opinion. That move REALLY helps you get to the inside-aft section of the ball.

Hi JP!
I agree - and also have noticed that pro's generally have their hips open or square at impact. Couples - open. Els - open. Tiger - open. Hogan - open. Not bad company!!!


Not sure about Tommy, but personally, I have never seen a pro with his hips closed at impact.


Simply put - in my opinion, the hips have two functions - to power the shoulders and to shift the weight. I personally would not advocate having closed hips at impact - and certainly not as a goal.

Per 5-0, the hands should control the pivot. The hips need to clear to allow the hands to come down onplane - and I cannot see the hands coming down on plane while remaining closed - not to mention other potential issues (lack of pivot lag, potential shoulders leading downswing - over the top, and most of all - roundhousing).

I wouldnt get too caught up in what others do or advocate, unless its Homer.

Hips need to clear. Hips should lead shoulders. Hips need to move to shift weight. I cannot see how these 3 factors could lead to closed hips at impact.
Just my take.

-Patrick

"Hips need to clear. Hips should lead shoulders. Hips need to move to shift weight. I cannot see how these 3 factors could lead to closed hips at impact."

Watch Tomasello's first video clip and you'll find a different opinion.

What would you gather from "Clear the right hip"?

Dictionarily I assume "clear" would mean to pass by without interference. So for these two parts of the anatomy to prevent a collision I understand that the right elbow would"clear" the right hip. Since the right hip cannot passby anything the only part left then is for the elbow to pass by the right hip even if be minutely so.

Try 7-14 and 7-15.

ANYONE??

Vikram

My point is, like you, I could not reconcile the hips being closed at impact - except for specialty shots- with what TGM teaches. Not saying Tommy is wrong - I am just not on the same page. I am fairly certain, while we are talking about alignment golf and not position golf, that with the three aforementioned points in my post would result in the hips at the least square at impact - particularly if the planeline is traced throughout the stroke.

If anyone else can shed some light, I am all for it.

Axis tilt is the key....
 

Hips slide parallel to the intended delivery path...crossline for hitting, and parallel to the plane line for swinging, all while maintaining a stationary head (thus creating of axis tilt and its subsequent avoidance of "roundhousing' or right hip collision.

And if I may, even if it's off topic... PANTHERS RULE!!!!!

EC

Cat Scratch Fever!!!!
 

SUPER BOWL!!!! SUPER BOWL!!!! SUPER BOWL!!!!

Our boys are back! How about a little inspired football finally? It's about time we D.F. toat the pig for a 100 yards. How can the Panthers only have one 100 yard gainer this year???

We made Vick look SLOW today! I'm GEEKED and ready! Let's hit ebay for Superbowl tickets!

Patrick,

I know for a fact that Homer didn't have a problem with a right arm swinging motion. I believe the motion Tomasello taught was about achieving power (and compatibility with the 3 barrel hitting procedure) than it was about avoiding an over the top move. Just watch the video on power from Australia and the second Letter chapter from Myrtle Beach...please study the videos.

Where are guys coming up with Tomasello teaching a closed hip motion at impact, that's misguided interpretation...the hips respond naturally to the motion of the right forearm (The Magic of the Right Forearm).

BTW, the hips don’t produce power they maintain velocity. Remember Lane 2 The "Arms" Lane where power is generated.

DG

Dave,
I never mentioned right arm swinging in my post. And thank you for clearing up the misguided intepretation!!!

That's "drift" from the original point - Tomasello's first 'letter video' has instruction for the trail elbow leading the hip turn and he wants the hip turn delayed until the trail elbow passes the hips. He does not advocate closed hips at impact.