Pics - Right Elbow/Right Forearm/#3 Pressure Point?
 

Lines are not perfect due to the lack of precision provided by my Powerpoint Tools...Sorry....I used the Elbow Plane as the reference point ...Forgive me of my lack of acknowledgment of the other plane angles in advance?

Let's begin a discussion on the relatioship of the entire right forearm flying wedge being aligned on-plane vs. on a different plane or off-plane ........including the right elbow....the right forearm, the #3 Pressure Point, the LCG....etc....

Fox Hole Buddies
 

Thanks for these, David. You are a huge contributor to our site, and we appreciate it.

The stab it with their steely knives . . .
 

Seems to me that all of these player (with the possible exception of one) have maintained the alignments critical to the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Each player seems to have the Right Wrist in its require LEVEL condition. However . . . it would be interesting to see the face on view that corresponds to each of the pics to see the Right Elbow's position (Pitch Basic? Punch Basic? Perverted Pitch?). Also, the Wedge could be maintained BUT the Right Forearm could be Over-Rolled or Over-Turned.

Also, the Right Shoulder and Axis Tilt can certainly play a roll here as well . . .

What I see
 

Golfer #1 - Nick Price: Definitely some angled hinging going on here. Camera angle is off. His right forearm flying wedge is definitely intact, but the angle is deceiving. I know that Nick Price periodically goes through spells where he can hit nothing but low, thin, pull-fades. I bet this was one of those times.

Golfer #2 ??

Golfer #3 - Big Mac: I hope he's trying to hit a draw on this shot! The clubhead is on the "right-knee basic plane". Yikes!

Golfer #4 - Tiger: This is definitely a pic taken during the Haney era. Tiger needs to rotate that left forearm into his side just to get the clubhead onto the ball (just like Mr. Hankey :D prescribes). Tiger's plane was much better during the Harmon era.

Golfer #5 - Freddy: I have some video of Freddy and his clubhead will travel straight down that yellow line all the way to impact, but his hands will stay outside that line the entire way. That's why he sets up open. His plane is perfect to hit a 15 degree push right onto his target. His right forearm flying wedge is intact and on plane when viewed from down the target line.

Golfer #6 - A decent amateur? Left forearm flying wedge has been destroyed by the bowing of the left wrist. Obviously off plane.

Golfer # 7 - Vijay - Awesome. Wow.

Golfer # 8 - No doubt a very accurate player. Perfectly on plane. Awkward body positioning.

Golfer #9 - This guy couldn't hit a draw to save his life. Pull hooks don't count. Is this Popeye Parry or some other guy with a 15 handicaper's swing?

Golfer # 10 - It's no wonder he won 8 majors.

So tough to know exactly what's goin on with these guys....with camera angles, hitting different shots, etc. I think we can evaluate them based on what we see but it's tough to know exactly what they're really doing.

Let's begin a discussion on the relatioship of the entire right forearm flying wedge being aligned on-plane vs. on a different plane or off-plane ........including the right elbow....the right forearm, the #3 Pressure Point, the LCG....etc....
[/quote]

Watson's (#10) right forearm appears well off the yellow line while,among others, Tiger's and VJ's are on the line. Is this significant or like Freddy's, is the clubhead position more important?

vjcapron....I like most of your posts

So please do not take any of the following as personal...my writing style does take on a hint of sarcasm...but not directly a personal attack...Are we okay with that?


Here we go....

Golfer #1 is Matt Kutchar...NOT...Nick Price....His club is "Rolled - Out" off plane by a premature Roll of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge thus changing the hand to plane relationship....hope he angle hinges this one...

Golfer #2 is Ted Tryba....His club is outside his hand path due to two much #2 accumulator(Doulble Action) with a 10-2-D GRIP TYPE...THIS IS OKAY FOR PLAYING CUT SHOTS WITH ANGLED HINGING...

Golfer #3 is Big Mac...You're Right....but that is NOT the Clubhead near his right leg...it is a shadow ...for the facts are that Mac is the only player with the right elbow, right forearm, #3 Pressure Point , and the LCG on the plane angle....The reason you cannot see the clubhead ...It's covering his right hand!!! Sorry for the picture quality...

Golfer #4 is Tiger Woods....At the 1999 US Open in Pinehurst...2 Stations down from me and Clearwater...Unfortunatley...Haney was working with O'Meara who BTW was the "dude between Clearwater and Tiger....Butchie was behind El Tigre....Obviously Tiger knew Hank....But Butchie was his MAN on that day!!!

Golfer #5 is Fred Couples...I agree from a 15-20 degree open stanceline about the straight line delivery...Right Forearm Flying Wedge intact-Yes....On-Plane?

Golfer #6 is Cadet Fisher from West Point...and yes at the time in deep s#*! Since adjusted!!! Great Kid...gonna serve our country upon graduation this May...giving up his clubs for a ride in a Tank in Iraq...Thanks Jimmy!!!

Golfer #7 is VJ....What is so Awesome? Other than the fact he's #2 in the world and won a whole lot of tournaments in the past few years...If he wasn't #2 in the world and didn't practice more than anyone else....Who really would notice? Besides I think what makes VJ awesome is he's strengthned his whole game....

Golfer #8 is Bob Tway....Define perfectly on-plane? Lost a little bit of waist bend and knee bend here?

Golfer #9 is Joey Sindelar....Yes...I agree definitely a 15-Handicappers swing....But he'd probably ask us sarcastically "How many PGA TOUR Events have we won with our swings?"

Golfer #10 is Tom Watson......It'a wonder he won 8 majors. What defined Watson...isn't technique...It's all the intangible of a True Champion..and a HOT putter for a while!!!!!

I apologize for the Sarcasm in advance.....

Nothing Personal!!!


AS

vjcapron

Have you had any personal long-term experience with Haney?

School's Out for Summer!!!!!
 

Mr. Ballstriker . . .

It seems that Mac is the only player (assuming camera angles are positioned properly) that has achieve the alignment of the Sweet Spot, PP3, Right Forearm, Right Forerarm Flying Wedge assembly, and Right Elbow all on the same Plane Angle Line drawn from the Right Elbow to Base Line of the Plane.

Of course there are some pretty dang good players in the pics that have managed a great deal of success without achieving the "uncompensated alignment." Many of these players DO have the Right Forearm Flying Wedge Structure intact. However, they are "off-plane?" Correct?

So . . . question . . . .

Which is more important?

Maintaining the structure of the Right Forearm Flying Wege i.e. the Level condition of the Right Wrist with the Clubshaft and the Right Forearm in the same plane like the javelin chucker?

OR

Being perfectly On-Plane without the integrety of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge?

You have certainly spent a great deal of time putting this together. What are we to learn from this?

Class in session?

B

If Mac's clubhead is on the yellow line, then how come you can see the whole back of his left hand in that shot? Wouldn't that point the club back under the plane?

The question isn't if Mac's Clubhead is on the yellow line...The facts are it is on the yellow line....These are the purest alignments when both flying wedges are aligned to the Plane Angle at this point....

How do I know the picture is accurate?...it is a still from my VHS copy and is filed on my V1 Digital Coaching System.....A tripod was used and it was placed properly by the subject being filmed...

Unfortunately ...I watched the LCG trace all the way down to this point.....I wouldn't ever deliberately choose a picture that wouldn't represent what I was trying to convey...I know I'm not the smartest tool in the toolbox...but I ain't that stooooooopid!!!

Bucket....

Class has been in session.....

Substitue Teachers always get the preferential treatment...

Where's the Professor when you need him....

On Sabatical?

Or

Standing outside the classroom observing his student's behavior?

A star for good conduct . . . here at LBG anyway.
 

I always seemed to find a way to get a good seat in detention when we had a substitute teach.

There was this time when we were throwing science books out of the third story window and . . .

I ain't going there.

Hell yeah I'm okay with that. I learn a little something from 90% of your posts.

I saw the clubface position and I immediately thought that it just had to be Nick Price. I've got some video from '93 of Nicky P. in very much the same position...and I couldn't believe back then what I was seeing.

I just learned another REASON why someone can be off plane instead of just recognizing that the clubshaft IS off plane. I understand what you are saying here.



If Butchie was his man that day, I guess he was just a "little stuck" on that swing.

Have you seen the swing sequence in Freddy's book "Total Shotmaking", taken back when Freddy was #1 in the world? I'll try to scan it and post it this week. His downswing plane and flying wedges are textbook TGM.

I saw your post about Vijay's "Mess" and I agreed with most of your analysis. However, on this swing, is he not closer to the "right elbow, right forearm, #3 Pressure Point , and the LCG on the plane angle" than any of the other golfers in this post?.

Well, the club is parallel to the ground and parallel to the target line. The toe is pointing straight up in the air. Okay, so he might be a hair under the yellow line, which explains his preference for repeating a drawing ball flight.

A lot of ways to get it done. He does cut most of his shots though, doesn't he? He's got to hit fades from that position.

I've always admired his golf swing even though it is not the most mechanically efficient action. I love Watson's upbeat, one-two tempo and his rhythm. I enjoy watching him hit bunker shots - his rhythm doesn't change and he gets the best "thump" in the greenside bunkers. He picks it clean with the long irons and digs out a nice pork chop with the short irons. I love how he fully turns the hips on the backswing - easy on the back. His champions tour career should last until he hits 60+. His five-under-par 65 in the first round of the 2003 Open at Olympia Fields with Bruce Edwards on the bag was special.

vjcapron....an all-star response ...in my book
 

Great responses.....

Vj's clubhead is slightly below and inside the #3PP...

What makes the analysis XXX-Rated in my opinion is where the clubhead and right forearm are here versus Frame #7 in the anlysis on the VJ Thread....

Thanx....90% is still an "A" here at the University

AS

Message from "The Creek"
 

Skywalker~

Continuing with someone's question about what we are to learn from the frames posted.

It would help me if I understood the conditions under which the advanced player would benefit from having the right forearm on the Sweetspot Plane at this stage in the downstroke. Or, was that your intent? My thinking from 5-0 and various RFFW discussions is that only during the Release Interval is it beneficial. That is not to say that the RFFW should not be retained.

JS and TW would seem to be opposites but in the frames posted they represent a unique group.

DRW

http://privateschool.about.com/od/tools/qt/grading.htm

A- buddy ;)

But you get an automatic F for lying.

Class dismissed ;)

The intent
 

The intent....is to show a sample of a small spectrum of variations ........Each picture has been carefully selected using a goniometer to determine the degrees of difference....For the Simpleton's out there slight , moderate ec\xcessive are substitutes for 10,20,30 degrees fro exapmle....For the Techy...you need the degrees to quatnitfy your qualitative analysis...

There are samenesses and differences in each photo...learning takes place when one can look at the samenesses and differences noticng there relationships ...but yet there individuality...It is from their individuality...that reveals the patterns of the whole picture...but also distinguishes the details of each individual picture...

Read 1-J

So if you're a "tree" person...start looking at the forest and appreciate its massive beauty....

If you're a "forest" person..start lookin at the individual trees and appreciate each one for themselves...

Then you got it!!!!

Once you know you know...then forget about it!
- Homer Kelley/Tom Tomascello

The more of these photos I see, real world golfers who are far better than me on their bad days, the less I feel the need to worry about obtaining precise, uncompensated alignments... am I expelled?

If you like to learn..you'll never get expelled...That's why they invented extra credit.....Learn the alignments...Do your homework.....show up for class....no matter how long it takes...then learn some variations....then customize....

This thought also crossed my mind . . .

Per Mr. K, I don't think you'll be getting the pink slip:

3-A Translation of Instruction . . .This book presents the “uncompensated” Stroke as a goal, guide and progress report, not as the minimum entrance test. Compensation for physical limitation, personal preference or special purpose are actually specialized techniques.

Of course there is always the NUMBER ONE IMPERATIVE.

And the number one alignment is the Flat Left Wrist (Law of The Flail 2-K). Without it, more information means only more confusion.

F for lying??? About what????

Jimmy..thanx for your kindness

Deep Battered Friend...

You are truly a 4.0...

You need to get out of the Insurance Biz...and open up your own Southern Style Restaurant, Lodge, and Golf Club....See ya soon!!!

hey annikan do you have any clips of johnny miller in his heyday at p6 i bet his alighnments are realy good

I was joking about 90% being an "A." When it's an "A-" most of the time. Just giving you some "poop" ;)

This outta shake the dew off your lilly for J. Miller. Put them Wedges between your cheek and gum. Spooky alignments.


http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/im.../0693-8833.jpg

And how 'bout them britches??? My father-in-law had a pair like that. I call them the Lonely Pants 'cuz every picture of him in the pants he's ALL BY HIMSELF!!! Those pants would clear a room quicker than a black bean fart.

I need to look....probably after his heyday.....

BTW...I used to work with his most feared teammate at BYU...Mike Taylor ...who has won the Mississippi State Amateur like 10 times ...or something sick like that...It's in Johnny's book...forgot what page...Mike's son.... Dow..showed it to me ....I never would 've thought that of Johnny and with his demeanor he portrays as a color analyst.....Ha ha ha...

He's good for the game ....or Was that an automatic F?


Jimmy...you with me?


Bucket ...we had soft tacos tonight...what's worse...black bean or refried?

A+ Anni! :D

colorful, sarcastic, correct spelling and i like the "bold" flare ;)

Analyst
 

Analyst.......color ...brown......has an unpleasant odor...usualy smells stinky....and is definitely bold...
must have been the re-fried beans...

My wife just went to bed....you know what that means....

Can't play no more!!!!

At least with y'all...Tee-hee-hee....

See ya tomorrow...

:cool:

Expectations
 

Reminds me of Ben's comment to Mr. Pennick during their initial lesson.

I am returning to the frames with a different perspective and understanding of your introductory comments.

DRW

sorry to inform whoever thought the first pic is matt kuchar,but it really is nick price

John...

That picture was taken at the 1999 US Open at Pinehurst when I was working with Keith Clearwater by my colleague Scott Brazaski...The picture was captured by my Video Analysis and the sign was cropped out by me....Matt Kutchar...Sorry...but I was there ...it is him...He does resemble Nick though...

Here is the sequence...Frame #5 or Bottom Left