Releases for Dummies
 

If this has been written all ready forgive me, and please post a link.

Can someone simply explain the difference between:

Random Sweep
Snap Release
Sweep Release

and any other release type I have missed!

Thanks
Steve

Three Release Points
 

(Full) Sweep -- The Release begins immediately during the Start Down.

Snap -- The Release is delayed as late into the Downstroke as possible.

Random Sweep -- The Release is Triggered somewhere in-between.

What are the advantages or disadvantages to each for hitting and swinging?

Jeff

Releases
 

Thanks.

Snap would be used by someone that holds lag until the last moment before impact?

Re: Releases
 

Yes but just to clarify and be more specific, its accumulator lag not the clubhead lag...

Accumulator lag - is how long the out of line conditions of the power package are kept before they are released

Clubhead Lag - is the clubhead trying to get in line with pp3

Snap Release vs Max Trigger Delay
 

Now here's a question that'll get you thinking:

What is the difference between Snap Release and Max Trigger Delay?

Are they synonymous?

Further questions for consideration:

Is it possible to use a Sweep Release with Max Trigger Delay.
Or a Snap Release with Min Trigger Delay?


I actually asked Lynn this question live -- unfortunately, I did not have a chance to record his response, and I haven't quite fully incubated his words of wisdom with my little brain. So I can't remember the model answers to the above questions!

Coming to terms with the Release
 

A bit more information would be helpful.

What is the definition of "release"? :wink:

Bagger

Re: Coming to terms with the Release
 

Uncock and Roll (4-D-0).

Interval where the Clubhead is "overtaking" the hands (2-P and 6-F-0).

Curved portion of the Endless Belt (2-K #6) when the Clubhead goes from linear travel to radial travel.

The bottom arc of the Delivery Path. See 9-3-9.

Re: Snap Release vs Max Trigger Delay
 

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Interesting questions!!

I would think a Sweep with Max Trigger and a Snap with Min Trigger would both end up looking like a RANDOM of some kind.

Concerning Releases... have any of you tried 10-24-F?

Re: Snap Release vs Max Trigger Delay
 

Tongzilla,
Interesting question.

Forgive me, but I cannot recall a 'maximum trigger delay' or a 'minimum trigger delay'. Perhaps you can guide me to where it is in the book.

That being said, you got me a thinkin (bad move!).

Isnt max trigger delay and snap the same? I am thinking max trigger delay might be a Mac term we are all familiar with, or I am missing something.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Patrick

Ok, found a reference.

7-20, 3rd paragraph, 1st sentence.

Maximum Trigger Delay....

I am of the belief it is synonomous with Snap Release. Though Homer does refer to it as 'trigger' (versus release).

Anyone...

ThOUGHTS????

Max Trigger Delay references:
6-B-1-C
6-B-2-C
6-B-3-C
6-B-4-C

The term 'Trigger Delay' is used quite regularly in the book, e.g. 2-P, 7-20, 6-R-0, 6-N-0, 6-F-0.

Re: Snap Release vs Max Trigger Delay
 

Lagster,

A sweep release with a max trigger delay changes the size of the pulley and hence the release type. The same is true of the Snap with Min Trigger. I don't think there is such an animal for either because the size of the pulley changes the release type. In other words, they are incompatible.
Thinking out loud here, but maybe using the "Automatic" variant of the release type would work for the above. But in doing so, the release sequence and clubface alignments are disturbed.

Bagger

Trigger Happy
 

In general, the Release Component (#24) refers to where in the Downstroke the Accumulators begin to fire. The Trigger Component (#20) refers to how that Release is to be initiated. The term Delay -- within the constraints of the boundaries of the selected Release -- refers to when that Triggering is to occur. Thus, though the three terms are coordinate, they remain independent and not synonomous.

The Snap Releases occur at the end of the Line Delivery Paths and the selected Trigger is Delayed until that point. If the Release is Triggered Automatically (in conjunction with the Aiming Point Procedure consciously or subconciously employed), then there will have been a Maximum Trigger Delay. Though The Golfing Machine does not define the term Minimum Trigger Delay, the student can infer that term to mean the earliest possible Non-Automatic Triggering (while respecting the entry boundary of the Snap Release).

The Random Sweep Releases occur prior to the end of the Delivery Paths -- at the Side -- earlier in the Downstroke than their Snap counterparts. If the selected Trigger is Automatic (again, via the Aiming Point Procedure), then a Maximum Trigger Delay will have been effected. If the Triggering is Non-Automatic and initiated as early as possible after the entry boundary of the Random Release, then there will have been Minimum Trigger Delay.

The Full Sweep Release begins immediately at Start Down. Hence, there is no Trigger Delay and, by definition, no Maximum or Minimum classification.

Epic Post Yoda !

It helps the fog :)

The ol' where, when and how :)

Tongzilla,
Thank you for the references.

Yoda,
Thank you for the answer.

Time to do some reviewing to make sense of all this!


-Patrick

Right Elbow Deep
 

I have read articles of many "pop" instructors advising the right elbow leading deep into the downstroke. "Try to get the right elbow in front of the navel."

Would this be considered "Max Trigger" of the Right Elbow or just a poor position? Before sipping the Yellow Koolaid I tried this and hit the ball where the elephants go to die.

Re: Right Elbow Deep
 

The perverted idea of a naval seeking Right Elbow. Oh dear #-o

It almost always takes the Right Forearm Off Plane.

Simply set the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Bring the Forearm up, then back down this angle. How much simpler can you get? More importantly, how much more geometrically precise can you get?

Re: Trigger Happy
 

Yoda,
Again, thank you for your reply.

I think Tongzilla raises some interesting points, and in my mind, I am not sure we have cleared them up.

It doesnt seem to me that either 7-20 or 10-20 clears this up (though your post eliminates alot of confusion). Based upon this, do you think Homer felt it was inherent in the trigger type and release type the timing of the trigger?

In otherwards, you cannot have a snap with minimum trigger delay.

Make sense?

Thanks.

IMO...
 

Not Yoda, but from what I've learnt, this is what I think...

Snap Release is defined as a Release that's triggered at the end of a Delivery Path. So it concerns where it's Released -- and it's not a specific point/location -- because the end of the Delivery can be thought of as an area with boundaries.

If you want to use Max Trigger Delay in a Snap Release (or a Random Sweep Release, but not a Full Sweep Release), you must be using an Automatic Release. Because if it's Non-Automatic, you're thinking about manually triggering the release, and hence you will not be releasing as late as you can be, i.e. not Max Trigger Delay.
What would this look like? You would see the location of release delayed until the very end of the end of Delivery Path area.

So if you want to use Min Trigger Delay in a Snap Release, you will need a Non-Automatic Release.
What would this look like? You would see the location of release delayed until the beginning of the end of Delivery Path area. But it's still within the end of Delivery Path area which defines the Snap Release.

I hope this makes sense!

Proud Papa
 

[Above <Line> by Yoda. Circle Path permits no Snap Release.]

**************************
And there you have it. 8)

Man, I love this site! :D

Always great when phillygolf fires up the old computer :D

Feels like old times \:D/


and Leo is becoming ... The Man. =D>

Is the Angled Line Delivery Path the red-headed step child here or what?

Don't let this post "die off like the rest"...

Please continue discussing this wonderful post ....

Crack..Crack..Crack ...He's gonna hatch soon!!!

Also lets cover All the delivery paths, delivery lines, triggers, releases and their relationships to one another....

And Master Yoda...stay right here...Don't go back into meditation mode Stay with us on this!!!

Skywalker

Release And Trigger Delay On The Angled Line Delivery Path
 

My post above (Trigger Happy) applies to both the Straight Line and Angled Line Delivery Paths. Angled Line is the necessary Variation for those Plane Angles requiring a return to the Elbow Plane for Release, e.g., the Double Shift.

Oh, and don't worry, Annikan...

I'm not going anywhere!

I'm Lovin' It (McDonalds)
 

What a bubbly atmostphere! Absolutely fantastic! Lets make this "Release for Dummies" thread, "Thread of the Month" (I just made that up).

==============================================

Now, Mike O said he has a pretty simple answer to my question about Snap Release / Trigger Delay, but was going to keep quiet to see how things pan out. I wonder if his response is the same as Yoda's. Will the real Mike O please stand up :?:

==============================================

In fact Mike and I has had some very interesting (probably more interesting to me than him since he knows pretty much everything already) discussions relating to Release via PMs. How selfish of me for not sharing this to the public.

Lets do this bit by bit. Starting from no particular place, lets look at 6-F-0 where Homer says "the Clubhead is not picking up speed during the Overtaking (Release) Interval, either when Hitting or Swinging".

Now we seem to have a direct contradiction in 8-9, where Homer says, "Release - ...the period of Clubhead Acceleration".

How can we reconcile the above?

I'll be back.

...I'm gonna have to come back to this and read it again...too much info. for now to put it all together in one clear picture.

Re: I'm Lovin' It (McDonalds)
 

Spot on 8). If only Homer added the word 'Angular' in front of Speed, it would've saved me a few brain cells!

Here's a bit of trivia for you guys. In the Endless Belt Effect model shown in 2-K#6, is Clubhead Speed increasing (i.e. accelerating) during the curved portion of the belt as it goes round the pulley (labelled as Radial Travel on diagram)?

Their is a huge difference between Arc Velocity,Arc Acceleration, Angular Velocity and Angular Acceleration....So I don't think Homer was contridicting himself...

Remember Acceleration is a CHANGE in Distance divided by a CHANGE In Time....

Arc Velocity which is the measure of the Circumference of the Arc from one point to another...usually measured in radians or degrees of travel..

Arc Acceleration is alpha times the radiusmeasured in radians or degrees

Angular Velocity(omega x's the radius) is the measure of Angular Velocity around the Center usually measured in radians per second

Angular Acceleration is (alpha= final omega - initial omega divided by time) I believe measured in radians per second squared.


I didn't have my Biomechanics text in front of me...If there is an error in the formulas or units I will edit in the morning when I get to the University.

The chick is gonna hatch soon..Yoda keep the light on!!!!

Keep us warm....

Thanks Annikan

Velocity
 

Velocity= Distance divided by Time
Acceleration= Distance divided by Time squared

Endless Belt... imagine ducks going around on a shooting gallery. When the duck turns the corner... Zip, there he goes.

Another Peck at the Eggshell
 

The more delayed the release, the smaller the pulley, the faster the right elbow has to straighten. Right forearm paddlewheel motion (swingers), action (hitters).

Bagger

RELEASE PAIRS

6-P-0 NON-AUTOMATIC RELEASE To produce a truly Non-Automatic Stroke, the selected Stroke Pattern is perfected step by step practicing each Factor individually until a conscious mechanical control is acquired. As each Factor is mastered – more or less – it is consciously transferred to a Feel Control while still retaining the ability to return it to a Mechanical Control at will. As more and more Factors are inserted into the Stroke, the fitting, aligning and synchronizing become more difficult, delicate and demanding. This adjusting is focused in one direction – the perfection of the Release MOTIONS of your Machine. Never try to “make a shot.” Make a “MOTION” – the Motion makes the shot. Dependable Means – dependable results. Study 3-A, 12-3 and 12-5.

Your “Motion” must include its “Pace” – that is, Handspeed (RPM), strong, consistent and RHYTHMIC (2-G). Then manipulating the Trigger Delay will handle most Clubhead Speed Variations. But study 2-M-2.

6-R-0 AUTOMATIC RELEASE When the selected Non-Automatic Stroke Pattern is mastered it can be pushed on to maximum Delay and become an Automatic Release and an entirely different set of Factors take over the attention and concentration. The Stroke – any Stroke – can be Released Automatically at any point by setting up an automatic Triggering mechanism. The Release is Automatic when any element of the place in the sequence of Structure or Motion so that it overtakes or is overtaken by other elements. So, premature Triggering of the Release indicates an unintentional mechanical or muscular derangement of the intended sequence. Study 6-E-1 and 7-20.

Now with an Automatic Release the player may control the Clubface alignment by direct manipulation of the Hands, especially when Hitting, or indirectly by adjustment of the Stance or Ball placement. Or with the Aiming Point procedure (6-E-2) for maximum Trigger Delay – especially when Swinging. As always, working form a perfected MOTION, with no alteration in the Stroke itself except for special purposes. Study 7-2.

Chapter 10-19 shows that Automatic and Non-Automatic Releases are equally available to both Hitters and Swingers and that many will find Hitting very satisfying if – and maybe because – it can accommodate any amount of effort one cares to expend on it.

Sounds like the neophyte should build his stroke via conscious muscle control of the non-automatic release. Once the appropriate Wrist Action and Hand Motion of #2 and #3 are acquired then and only then should one push it to Max Trigger and Automatic Snap.

I like Dr. Collards' advice to practice the release motions SLOWLY very SLOWLY into the impact bag or into the ground. I had the misconception that Lag was to HANG ON HARD. I'm still a little chicken to get to Full Lever Extension.

How many people actually get the Full DOWN? There was a post where Yoda described it as Bungie Jumping. Having a big enough set to take it ALL THE WAY DOWN. Drive the clubhead at the ball not at the green.

All motion is focused on driving the Hands -- NOT THE CLUB -- toward the BALL. This may, with habit, seem to become reversed. But this is where and how a player's game "comes apart".

...Waiting for answers regarding the trivia in my previous post...

Lagster,

My partner in Crime....

The formulas on Velocity that you posted are "Linear Kinematics"...We're dealing with a CHANGE from Linear Kinematics to ANGULAR KINEMATICS....Similar BUT VERY DIFFERENT!!!

Thus the "Endless Belt Effect"

Skywalker

__________________________________________________ __________

Thanks Skywalker!!

Interesting information! Keep it coming.

Something to ponder... Many excellent tour players that are, or were long hitters do not APPEAR to have MAX TRIGGER DELAY/ SHORT PULLEY. NICKLAUS, WOODS, SNEAD, WEISKOPF. Some do... ELS, GARCIA, HOGAN.

COULD THERE BE A MIDDLE GROUND FOR OPTIMUM POWER AND ACCURACY?

When most people talk about Max/Min Trigger Delay, they are refering to #2 Accum - Left Wrist Cock. But what about #4 Accum? One could have a Min Trigger Delay #4 by dropping the fully cocked Left Wrist or even adding to #2 by downcocking, followed by a Max Trigger Delay of #2 and #3. The mechanics of a Min Trigger Delay #4 require dropping the hands, independently of the shoulders, to the hands plane and then a body rotation through the ball.

Endless Belt Trivia
 

In this model (2-K #6), the Clubhead does not accelerate during its Radial Travel around the pulley. There is infinite acceleration of the Clubhead for an infinitesimally small amount of time in between the linear and radial travel (just when the belt starts to curve). The clubhead then moves at a constant, albeit a higher speed than the belt during its radial travel.

Now, moving on a bit...

The assumption of the Endless Belt Effect is that Belt Speed stays the same throughout. But because of the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum, if there was a motor turning the belt, and its energy output remains constant, the belt will actually slow down as the club goes round the pulley. So more energy has to be put into the system just to keep the belt speed constant. Think about it, the clubhead doesn't speed up for no reason!

Back to golf. How do we keep the Belt Speed/Hand Speed constant during Release? Swingers use Momentum Transfer, Hitters use Right Arm Thrust. One is more effective than the other.

ship's mast
 

I think the endless belt as it applies to the golf swing is a much smaller section of the conveyor belt. Take into consideration the length of the club and hand in relationship to the rotating body and arms.

Watch a ship rock back and forth harbored in a bay and watch the distance the mast moves compared to the distance the hull moves. Sit on top of the ship’s mast and you are clocking for speed, yet on the hull the speed is far less. The rpm’s of the swing needs only to remain constant between the pivot/body and the arms. Let the endless belt rip from the wrists to the clubhead.

I still like Dante’s visual of a bullwhip cracking at the tip.

'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

Momentum Transfer is indeed more effective than Right Triceps Thrust in terms of minimizing Release Deceleration. And all other things being equal, that would result in a lower Clubhead Speed at Impact.

But...'all other things' are not equal. The Right Triceps Muscle Power is capable of producing tremendous Hand Speed, perhaps exceeding that of Momentum Transfer Centrifugal Power. Therefore, even after the Release Slowdown, it is possible for the Hitter's net Handspeed to be equal to (or even greater than) that of the Swinger.

In my 1982 GSEM Certification Class, Homer Kelley illustrated that point using Release illustrations from Search For The Perfect Swing, a book published the year prior to The Golfing Machine.

Where...

When...

How...

Great photos and a wonderful motion Annikan. 8)