Is there a final word on ball position?
 

Okay, I've taken lessons from Ben Doyle, and he says all balls are played off the left heel (for a right handed player, naturally). This isn't the first time we've heard this philosophy on ball position. I'm pretty sure both Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan say the same thing in their books. I've also heard that the ball should be played in relation to the upper body, playing the shorter irons from more of the center of your chest and as the irons get longer, the ball begins to move more left of the center of your chest. Lately, I've been trying to play most shots from somewhere around "off the left heel". However, I am not hitting it as crisp from that position. I would think the easy answer would be, "move it back in your stance", but, if I do that, am I just compensating for some other problem? Is ball position something that we need to just experiment with and see what works for us, or should we be playing the ball from a certain position and learning to hit it from there? I'd love to hear from Yoda or any of the other G.S.E.D.'s that post here, but that isn't to say I wouldn't love to hear from anyone at this point. :?

This should help, the second at Chuck's is prolly in the archive here now.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=176


http://chuckevansgolf.com/forum/show...=ball+position

It CAN be done.

For some it is the BEST option.

It IS the most dificult to master however.

I have done it — and taught it — both ways, and like the other 40quadrillion options, in some patterns for some golfers.....

Well said Manzella!

Todd

I use the manzella one ball position....however there is a critical thing you have to remember:

As the club gets shorter, narrow up your stance.

Brian, didn't you say something in your forum b4 about you never putting it back of centre?

Yes, good point Jim. Even if the ball is always inside left heel, it will be more and more behind low point as your stance narrows. So you are actually changing ball location, because ball location is defined as the distance of ball from low point, even though the ball has same relation to stance. This leads some people to think that they have constant ball location for all clubs.

From my experience, playing the ball near low point (0-4 inches behind low point) with short clubs (9 iron - lob wedge) is not good with most players. Definitely would not recommend it!

Everyone has two choices: change ball location, or change aiming point. The one ball location theory requires aiming point to change for each club. Why? Because the law of conservation of angular momentum says that shorter clubs will reach its in-line condition much sooner than longer clubs. So aiming point needs to be changed (moved forward for shorter clubs) to hit the ball effectively. However, if you change ball location instead, the you can achieve a constant release point feel with all clubs.

Ben Doyle's Multiple Ball Locations
 

Ben Doyle teaches one Ball Location with regards to the Left Heel -- specifically, "one inch inside." However, he simultaneously insists on varying Stance widths, e.g., Chip Shot width, Pitch Shot width, and so on. [This post assumes conventional positioning and does not apply to specialty Plane Line / Stance Line applications such as Cut Shots.]

Given the static Location with regards to the Left Heel, the wide Stance automatically locates the Ball forward in the Stance and narrow Stance locates it more back. Similarly, the wider Stance locates the Ball just behind Low Point (opposite the Left Shoulder) and the narrow Stance locates it well aft.

So, while Ben teaches a constant Ball Location with regards to the Left Heel, his methodology results in multiple Ball Locations with regards to the Left Shoulder. And in the end, that is all that matters.

Well said Lynn.

Also, the further FORWARD the ball position, the BETTER storage and flat left wrist is required for 'ball-turf' contact. :lol:

What about working the ball with this single ball position?

Left and right, high and low. I guess you can go high and low with address body tilt?

Thanks,
-Paul

BTW, is the driver supposed to be played more forward than this? I remember reading something about that when using this "single ball position".

Yoda,

Well said.Master Yoda...

Horizontal Hinging uses more of a single ball location"system"...vary stance width and stance line thus affecting ball location to left shoulder(The Hinge)....Angled Hinging uses more multiple ball locations for varying degrees of launch angles and different initial flight paths... So your ball location "System" must match...Hinge Action...Plane Angle/Line...and Release ...etc...

The bottom line...Where's the ball located in relation to the Hinge!!!

So... the final word on ball location...it's a variable epending on your stroke pattern!!!

Skywalker

Ball location should always be referenced via the Hinge Pin (Left Shoulder). In that sense, there is no such thing as a "Single Ball Location" system.

Tongzilla....You're Right!!!

You know what man...that's such a great way to think about it. It really is.

...Ball position in relation to the left shoulder (low point).

Because the left shoulder is low point...and if you know anything about the geometry of a circle and hinge action...you know that ball position is absolutely vital...

Funny that this comes up...because I just discovered the "single ball position"

I open the face a lot on the backswing...double shift...I'd like to say my swing is kinda like Hogan or Vijay...don't want to miss right. Ball starts straight or is slightly pushed (plane line always extends out to the right so the ball STARTS straight or barely right)...and flies straight or slightly fades.. and the clubface will not close through impact enough (no leftward CURVE) for a hook...it's almost impossible to hook...unless I setup for a draw at address (closed shoulders/toe line then normal swing- make sure tempo remains slow to allow clubface to be closed at impact...err- at separation :) ).

The problem I've always had though was with high, right, weak short irons- fluffers.

Trajectory control (bringing the flight down when I need to) has been difficult. I couldn't hit down on it enough...I guess I turned a SW into a LW or higher...LW would turn into god knows what. 100 miles into the sky that's what I guess lol.

But if I moved it back...as I thought always basically had to be done as a part of hitting it lower...the ball would get down...but be about 1000 yards right of my target.

Now I keep the ball 'one ball' inside my left heel and adjust my stance width (and hence, axis tilt) so I can hit it on the way down. The forward ball position makes sure that the ball goes straight still instead of dead right.

I think this is the only way for me to use the same swing throughout the bag I've realized...it's always been a hurdle.

Anyway I've gotta stop typing...I'm all excited.

Good stuff.

-Paul

I think there's a reason why Hogan played the ball where he did BTW... 8) :wink: (wink)

Study 10-24-F if you have a Flip release... Ball location and Stance Line are critical due to this Pivot-Controlled Procedure. The "flip" addict needs these two fixes!!! ...Source for illustration, The Modern Fundamentals for Golf, Ben Hogan,p.125

Skywalker

But Hogan doesn't use a Flip Release, or does he? I thought he uses an Automatic Snap Release.

Tongzilla,

I didn't say Hogan used a "flip release" ...just used diagram to illustrate Ball location /Stance line relationships...

"The Flip release Addict" reference was for those who PERHAPS wonder why they like to play the ball forward in what "APPEARS" to be one ball location..."But there is no such thing"- from which you are keerect!!!

I strongly suggest reading 10-24-F 3rd,4th, 5th, and 6th, they're are some interesting points made about...Pivot Controlled Procedures

Skywalker

Sorry, there must be some confusion here Skywalker...I didn't say that you said that Hogan used a flip release! :wink:

I just found it interesting because Hogan doesn't use a Flip Release (we both agree with that), but that diagram shows how a person using Flip Release should set up (according to you).

Anyway, I don't know much about the Flip Release....need to do some reading and incubating!

So what release does Hogan use???

Anyone know for sure.

Why'd you mention Flip release BTW? I'm curious to know about this.

I read a bit in the book but haven't gotten much from it yet. It talks about a pivot controlled-stroke and shoulder-turn takeaway- I now use both.

-Paul

From the pictures and videos I have seen, it looks like Hogan uses a Snap Release. Is it Automatic or non-Automatic? I can't tell. Does anyone have any advice on what to look for to see if someone is using an Auto or non-Auto Release Type? If I were to hazard a guess, it would be an Auto Snap Release, just because it is very hard to control clubface motion manually when one has such a late Release Point.

I can assure you that Hogan did not use a Pivot Controlled Hands procedure (I'm assuming that's what you meant when you said "pivot controlled-stroke").

Regarding the shoulder turn takeaway, notice in all Hogan swing videos, how absolutely stationary his head remains on the backswing (and downswing). There is no swaying of the head behind the ball- something you often see from people who employs a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. Also notice the very slight "left-side sag" look when Hogan is at the Top. This is a common characteristic from golfers who employ a Right Forearm Pickup procedure and keeping an absolutely Stationary Head.

That's all I've got to say for now! :wink:

I think I agree with you there...well as far as I know- it's still a guess basically for me too.

How can you be so sure he doesn't use a shoulder turn takeaway? I think he does.

It is possible to use a shoulder turn takeaway and have a Hands Controlled Pivot procedure. That's all I'm going to say about that, as there are already many posts on this subject.

If you read my post again, you will notice that I said catorgorically that Hogan uses a Hands Controlled Pivot procedure. I did not draw any conclusions in the type of takeaway he uses. However, I did give a few logical reasons and comments, which may help you make up your mind.

Please re-read my previous post :o

OK you're right TONG.

My bad...

Still get confused with PCH and HCP...

Pivot-powered hand control is a much better term IMO...to distinguish the three seperately.

I still think he uses a shoulder-turn takeaway tho.

BTW I understand that stance width changes axis tilt...

But what exactly does changing stance line do?

I have a few ideas:

-open/closed = shortens/lengthens swing
-open steepens the plane angle while closed makes it more flat

Anyone?

Stance Line Fall-Out
 

Yes Open/closed = Shortens/lengthens swing.

Open Stance -- Automatically restricts Backstroke Turn but allows a free Follow-Through (Delayed Pivot 10-12-C).

Closed Stance -- Automatically produces Free Backstroke Turn but restricts the Follow-Through (Short Pivot 10-12-B).


No Open steepens the Plane Angle while Closed makes it more flat.

Stance Line is independent of Plane Angle. And vice versa.

For the record.....I now think that Hogan DID use a STT.

QUESTION 1: What about Shoulder Line?

If I was to open my toe line to restrict swing length.....and still wanted a straight ball flight....

Toes/hips open and shoulders parallel to target line, right?
--------------------------------

QUESTION 2: Possible to have a Flip Release and Snap Release at once? i.e. it seems to me that Flip Release covers more of the "how" the club is released, not the "when" of Snap, Sweep, etc.

Whatcha got Yoda? or anyone.