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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 58055)

Dave,
I'm not interested in getting involved in this debate, discussion - I was only commenting on a very narrow topic area within one of Jeff's post- with no intent to have it reflect on any wider issue- pro or con.

If we were to interpret my post- if anything - I would think it would lean more in the direction of supporting your "apparent" viewpoint than it would the "oppositions" - so I am perplexed at the nature of your question to me.

Part of the problem that I see with this thread or posts to this thread is one of communication. Specifically, when you are describing movement let's assume you need to define 1) What the intent is, 2) What muscles are being used, 3) What sensations you are sensing while the movement is being made, 4) What it looks like through the video camera, 5) Where your focus or awareness is while making the movement, 6) etc. - these are all very different for the same movement.

For example, If I decide to Drive my hand/fist through Buckets skull- that doesn't mean that I'm using the fist muscles to do it- that just describes my intent. The muscles that create that motion of the hand might simply be the tricep muscle but of course that would not cause much damage so I'd probably use muscles throughout my body - some for movement, some for support of movement, etc. etc. On to what sensation I might be aware of while I was making the movement - Would that be my hand? no, you'd have greater sensations other places (Bucket can elaborate on this further). Would I individually feel every single muscle that is contracting-No, although they are.

In summary, it's important to understand the context in which you are looking at the movement. For example, in case someone were to read your question and assume that both your quotes were saying the same thing- certainly they are not in this regard : The Homer quote is saying that the Forearm is always driving - that's more of a third party observer comment - as if we were measuring the acceleration rate of the forearm and the Tomasello quote is more from the 1st perspective - the mover- the intent of the mover to drive the forearm or move the forearm. I only use that example to point out the different contexts that one needs to observe- it in no way is meant to separate out one as right and one as wrong.

If one were to want to make some progress or learn during a debate- one might ask questions to clearly understand the opposing view and one might want to clearly define their view for the opposing party. That way you create a platform for agreement to move forward. Hope that helps in some way.

For some reason I feel much better after posting this post- hmm... the only thing I could possibly feel better about would be if Bucket came over to play some cards- Bucket- where are you? Come on over - let's play a friendly game of cards- I've got those candy bars you like! I've got to go now - my Doctor Augusta Golf says I shouldn't be out this long without more medication.

Dude . . . . I got your medicine . . . after reading your last 3 posts . . . . drewitgolf has asked me to feed him the whole bottle . . . . open the hatch suferboy . .. .here comes a big tasty wave . . . . wipe out soon to follow . . .

We better get one of them forum sherrif types over here soon before they start dropping like flies. Yo Belle Starr can you please ban Mikey from posting in this forum . . . LBG may have some liability issues.

This thread is dead, time to put it to bed, enough has been said, everything has been read.

Mikey, take your medicine before Bucket brings his left over Halloween candy.

Not Involved - Or am I???

[quote=12 piece bucket;58062]

We better get one of them forum sherrif types over here soon before they start dropping like flies. Yo Belle Starr can you please ban Mikey from posting in this forum . . . LBG may have some liability issues.[/QUOT

It's way too entertaining when MikeO open his posts with comments like, "I'm not interested in getting involved in the debate" and then proceed to write one of his unibomber manifesto's. Besides, he's is also a self proclaimed computer hack, so I'm just waiting for him to ban himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance (Post 58068)

It's way too entertaining when MikeO open his posts with comments like, "I'm not interested in getting involved in the debate" and then proceed to write one of his unibomber manifesto's. Besides, he's is also a self proclaimed computer hack, so I'm just waiting for him to ban himself.

I think you read that wrong . . . .it was "hack" with a "J". . .

Mike wrote-: "The point is that some "forearm" muscles are able to flex the forearm and some forearm muscles are able to extend the forearm. Those are the muscles that cross the elbow joint."

Mike is correct and I applaud his questioning comments. I shouldn't have been so didactic by making a general overarching statement about forearm muscles that is only generally true, but not absolutely true. I therefore need to qualify my statements with a more detailed explanation, which is always a good thing, because it promotes a better (more accurate) understanding.

Theoretically, it can be said that any foreram muscle that has its origin (or part of its origin) above the elbow joint can assist in flexion or extension of the elbow joint depending on its position and muscle bulk - even though that forearm muscle may have another primary function (moving more distal joints).

I have therefore produced two photos.

The photos are too large to embed in this message, so I will provide links.

Photo 1 - Forearm Muscles - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ForearmMuscles.jpg

Photo 2 - Origin and insertions of forearm muscles - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Fo...lesOrigins.jpg

Take for example the aconeus muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion below the elbow joint. In that sense, it can be perceived to be an elbow extensor muscle. However, it is a comparatively tiny muscle relative to the triceps muscle and plays very little role in active elbow extension.

The same applies to the brachioradialis muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion near the wrist. It can definitely flex the elbow joint, but considering its relatively small bulk (compared to the biceps and brachialis muscles) and its far insertion point (which decreases leverage) it plays a far smaller role in elbow flexion that the upper arm muscles (biceps and brachialis muscles) which have great leverage because of their proximal forearm insertion points. Its main role is to produce a neutral forearm position when the forearm is extended in a non-neutral position (either supination or pronation) and the forearm is then flexed to a neutral position. It helps in rotating the forearm to a neutral position while assisting the biceps muscle in flexing the elbow.

Yodas Luke suggested that extensor digitorum and extensor carpi ulnaris may assist in elbow extension. I don't think that's correct and the photos show why I disagree - note that the extensor carpi ulnaris and extensor digitorum muscles actually arise from an origin below the elbow joint and its only their common extensor tendon that is attached to the humerus just above the elbow joint (at the lateral humeral epicondyle). They have very little leverage in extending the elbow joint - compared to the triceps muscle.

The extensor muscle that has its origin above the elbow joint is the long head of extensor carpi radialis, but its position and small bulk suggests that it has little role to play in elbow extension.

Look at the sheer size of the triceps muscle and the triceps tendon, and consider its advantageous point of insertion. You can then see why its the dominant muscle in elbow extension.

Jeff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 58071)

I think you read that wrong . . . .it was "hack" with a "J". . .

Attachment 1509

Bucket contemplates his next post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagger Lance (Post 58068)

Bagger rises from the dead? Only post in a month and he threatens to ban me! Then Bucket jumps on the band wagon!? This is too much for me - I'm quitting this forum and never, NEVER coming back!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 58071)

I think you read that wrong . . . .it was "hack" with a "J". . .

OK, I'm back JACK! Bring it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 58077)

Bagger rises from the dead? Only post in a month and he threatens to ban me! Then Bucket jumps on the band wagon!? This is too much for me - I'm quitting this forum and never, NEVER coming back!!!!

Mike you can't leave, I haven't been banned yet.

Attachment 1510
Mike O views my reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augusta Golf (Post 58075)

Attachment 1509

Bucket contemplates his next post.

"Contemplates" would pre-suppose "Thinking" - show me any post where you would say that Bucket has applied rational thought- You Won't, You Can't, It's not there!! The Man's a LUNATIC!!!!!! A Goofball!!! Him and Fort- Please this is outrageous! You haven't got it! - Please view the Tomasello Tapes - Australian Series - Chapter 2 and 5 - view them 100 times and then have Bucket and Fort get back to me - it's all there! Now WHERE IS MY MEDICINE!!!??????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!