OK, with feeling this time.

Nicklaus

Opening shoulders = not on plane

Define Tilt early......tilt away from the target? On plane

Tilt toward the ground? Possible to stay on plane but tricky

Hogan

Opening shoulders = off plane

Hogan's position can tolerate a tighter gyroscope, if that is what you mean.

Although I really can't imagine Hogan spinning out. Fast hips? The fastest.

But he pivoted, never spun. Are we getting closer?

I may have to call in Mike O for backup.......

UPP in snowy Ohio

Ok . . . the base line deal for Nicklaus is shorter right? So he HAS TO MOVE THE CLUB DOWN more and keep it from shooting out early. So his right shoulder moves down earlier than Hogan to keep the club going down and on plane.

Hogan on the other hand has a longer base line and has to turn open more to keep the hands on the flat plane. If he tilts early with his hands that deep and low (flat) . . . the club will get waaaaay inside and point well outside the plane line (under plane). Opposite for Nicklaus if he turns early . . . he's over plane.

So an instructor can say yo dude you need to get Axis Tilt get the shoulder going down plane NOW!!! Throw the drunk off . . . tilt the tea cup . . . That will work . . . depending right?

Agreed
 

Bucks,

We agree. I will say 9 out of 10 players I know can tolerate more tilt rather than less. Very few are as horizontal as the Hawk. Starting that right shoulder under plane is recoverable. Once it gets over top, that is a rocky road to good golf. Finally I understand what you were after with alignments in the pivot. Thank you.

UPP in snowy Ohio

It is all about the plane!!!!

Da plane, Boss, Da plane!!!:read:


todd

Hold up! That ain't all of 'em!!! We ain't done yet . . . we just did RELATION TO THE PLANE ANGLE . . . we got way more stuff to cover. Plane Line, Hand Path, Grip and Face, Shaft Lean, Trajectory . . . don't run off.

Now I got a question for you . . .

You can't recover from over? Why can't you? But you can from under? How can you?

Please provide your analysis of the recovery or lack of recovery . . .

Word!

And . . . those 9 out of 10 . . . would you learn 'em to Tilt? OR flatten their plane so they can use the turning open? Or just hand them a tennis racket or a jar of cole cream?

Once you come over your momentum is going to take the clubhead outside the line. You are already in your downswing and no one I know can reroute that quick. (I never have had the pleasure of seeing Bucks in person, you may be the exception. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure you are an exception.) If the right shoulder comes under plane the player just comes a little more from the inside than ideal, but hitting the inside quadrant should be a doable thing. Those 9 out of 10, and I am in that category, have to look, look, look at their action and develop a pivot action that is as close to on plane as they can, erring on the down. Or else keep hacking. Or else take up fishing.

Back to ya. Anyone else, please join in here. Thanks,

UPP in cold Ohio

Chiming in
 

Upp,
You asked me to Chime in on this thread. However, I don't have much to say. I think trying to dig deeper into the relationships is always a good thing-so I like that about this thread. Not sure how far you can go within the Golfing Machine concepts- to learn a little more about the pivot i.e. the information is limited and doesn't provide a wide enough platform or basis for running with the ball and growing what you have there. Homer does list pivot components and the basic variations - with the realization that you may have anything in the entire range of possibilities as your component location or relationship. But overall - it's somewhat limited. Homer says in 12-3 "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control The Pivot (9-1)." That leaves two directions to go in learning more- wider and wider concepts on "how the Hands control the pivot" and narrower and narrower concepts in regards to breaking down the pivot into parts and understanding the details of those parts, and relationships among those parts of the pivot. I certainly have some thoughts but it's not a fully integrated theory yet and wouldn't add to your thread here.

Bucket's on a good path in that he's raising the discussion level and also looking at what relationships are valid and which ones are not valid - and why. But if you were stuck in a 6 x 6 holding cell and only had a computer - what would you do?

Chiming in again
 

UPP,
Now if you needed help beatin down bird breath! I'm here to help!
Rule #1 - If he starts a thread- it will end in a beat down bar fight! Guaranteed!
Rule #2- He's ugly. Why do I say that? - just sounds right to me.
Rule #3- It's just about impossible to thread-jack a Bucket thread but that should not stop you from trying!

Those are the three imperatives as I see them.

As usual PM me with any and all solutions to this problem. Whoever sent me that PM with the mud, chicken, car, and vinegar idea- sorry but it was just too sick- I think it was DG- nevermind- not sure. However, we are modifying it for the October reunion- any and all ideas to rid this site of this greased chicken will be accepted!

Snead explained the golf swing "you have to go down and up at the same time"