Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53756)

Dariusz

I have attempted the Tomasello "right arm throw" action on many occasions. I have found that it only works well when I use an "arm swing" style rather than a "body-swing" style, where the rotating torso drives the swing ala Hogan. Any attempt to blend the two (swinger's "pull" action secondary to a downswing pivot action powering/releasing power accumulators #4 and #2 and a hitter's "push" action due to an active right arm throw action powering/releasing power accumulators #4 and #2) results in switting, which is very problematic in terms of generating a smoothly executed clubhead swing path.

Understood. It's the opposite feeling to mine since I have found that RAS is a great pattern that combines power of the right forearm while subduing the motion to the pivot. But, hey, wit would be dull if we all were the same. :)

You also wrote-: "However, I have a feeling (please correct me if I am wrong) that a person who tends to use angled hinging post-impact, must square the clubhead earlier before impact as well."

I don't exactly know what you mean by squaring the clubface earlier by impact? Are you referring to squaring it to the ball-target line or to the clubhead arc? Either way, I think that the clubface should never be squared before impact, and the clubface must always be slightly open to the ball-target line and the clubhead arc in the few inches before the clubface impacts the ball - whether using angled hinging or horizontal hinging.


Jeff, when I say square I always mean squaring to the swing arc (never to the target line); note that the clubhead travels from the inside to the inside, that means it is open when coming to the ball and closed after separation simultaneously being square to the swing arc.


By the way, I realise that all clubs have variable degrees of offset, but I have never seen a zero-offset club that didn't have a hook-face relationship between the clubface and the clubshaft. Are you claiming that Hogan's club's clubface was not hook-faced relative to the clubshaft - even if they had zero offset?
Do you have a photo of Hogan's clubs?


Unfortunately, I have not a good photo of Hogan's clubs (only a general view of the bag); however, people on other fora who met The Man and/or were fortunate to hold Hogan's clubs in their hands, say that apart their SW was very high, they were bent open several degrees. Others said that Ben Hogan manufactured his forged blades the way thaey can be bent and even have negative offset, but I can't say if it's true or not.
There are some clubs with minimal or even without offset (e.g. KZG ZO blades) on the market; generally, the more blade-like is the iron the less is the offset.


Finally, I agree that the divot should always be going left after the low point of the clubhead arc - because it reflects the clubhead arc/path that moves inside, upwards, forwards after the low point. However, the clubface has a variable degree of rotation relative to the clubhead's arc during that part of the followthrough (after the low point), depending on whether the golfer uses angled versus horizontal hinging. The first part of the divot reflects the clubhead's movement outwards, downwards and forwards prior to it reaching the low point of its arc, and that part of the divot must be directed minimally right of the target.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53756)

Mike

I am curious. Why is that grip bad?

You also wrote-: "Horizontal hinging does not have a draw bias. You can slice, fade, draw, hook using horizontal hinging as it really depends on the clubface relationship to clubhead path."

I cannot understand this point. Why would one use horizontal hinging if one deliberately wanted to fade/slice the ball? Secondly, consider a golfer who wants to hit the ball as straight as possible. I presume that you agree that he must have a slightly open clubface at the time of first ball impact, and a square clubface at the time of ball-clubface seperation. So, what type of hinging action would result in a perfectly straight ball flight (with no tendency to fading/drawing) if the clubhead arc is perfectly symmetrical to the ball-target line and the clubface is square to the ball-target line at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation?


Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 53747)

I presume that you agree that a neutral grip will mean that the back of the left hand is parallel to the lower edge of the clubface (or lower clubface grooves if the lower clubface edge is rounded) - as demonstrated by Brian Manzella in this photo from an article that he wrote.





Jeff.

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 53625)

Great thread; lots to learn here. Thanks to all who are participating.

:salut:

Jeff, I understand and agree with your premise regarding the Swinger's passive Right Arm participation. But for me, it does not explain Hogan's desire for "three right hands". In fact, the whole notion of 'passive right arm' conflicts with it.

Here's my view:

As do all good players, Hogan sensed tremendous Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure from Release to the end of the Follow-Through ('Through the Ball' per 7-24). He felt this Lag Pressure (Acceleration Rate / 2-M-2 #1) in his #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the Right Hand forefinger) and wanted more. Alas, since Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate (7-19), there was no 'more' to get. Thus, with only one right hand, Hogan felt deficient.

Further, though Clubhead Lag Pressure only indirectly drives (7-11) the Club through Impact, it is nonetheless a dominant Feel. In fact, creating and maintaining this Lag Pressure (1-L #7) is no less than The Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0 / - A). And this indirect drive at Pressure Point #3 -- Right Hand -- is transmitted via the passive Power Accumulator #1 -- Right Elbow (6-C-2-C / 10-11-0-3).

All of which explains the Swinger's Feel ("describable sensation" per 1-J and 3-B) of the "stiff-wristed Right Forearm Slap" (Major Basic Stroke / 10-3-B) and the mantra of The Golfing Machine:

Sustain the Lag! [3-F-7-B]

:golfcart2:

Originally Posted by mrose (Post 55704)

I'm glad you did bring it back up Dariusz J. There's a lot of interesting argument.

Jeff started by saying that Hogan's lower body created the flattening of the left wrist at the start of the downswing. I think John Schlee said that this was a key move for Hogan. Only it was not produced by the lower body but rather by consciously sensing the right thumb and forefinger both fall down, and in, at the start of the downswing. If the arms don't drop I believe this will both flatten the left wrist and lessen the amount of wrist cock he would be playing with through the ball. It gives the appearance of being laid off but not in a bad way I don't think. Would this increase his lag pressure? He may have been using both inertia and gravity.

It may also explain part of the downcocking appearance he gives through the ball. This move is clearly evident in that famous sequence from Andrisani's book.

I find it very interesting that in Modern Fundamentals he says that the right thumb and forefinger are not to be used but then qualifies this warning by saying that they may be used for finesse shots for the better player. I always thought this was referring to the short game and wedge shots but perhaps not.:idea1: