Rub it in.:sad2:

Sorry Air,

What if U and I team up for 2k11 and promote the good old Viking sword striking procedure? I'm sure whatever Hogan picked up with regards to swingin or hittin hitting with flat plane and very heavy gear was just a pale copy of whatever Leif Eriksson carried with him when he found The Good Wineland. Vi må bare ha en liten diskusjon oss imellom på forhånd for å avklare sånn nogenlunde hva en slik prosedure evt går ut på :happy3:

This aint right ......for lower planes the Arc of Approach would look more smilie faced. It being a visual equivalent. Sorry.

Vikingstilen var å rane og drepe andre og hevde seg på den måten. Det blir kanskje litt for heftig i vår tid...? Men hjelmene de brukte hadde heldigvis ikke horn i virkeligheten.

:laughing9

I love the addition of the cigarette in Mr Hogan's photo!

Truer words were never spoken!

.......[:shock:]....... He lives!

i have been trying to pay attention, but there is a lot of good stuff to pay attention to :-) ...is the inclined plane line
1) the target line in a square/square set up or
2) slightly further away but parallel to the target line ie going through low point

per john "lagpressure" erikson, hogan's procedure of release is not covered in the yellow book.................heh, l am just the messenger. 21 pagers here, and no answer.

Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?
 

While you're in "messenger" mode, Joe, why not tell us your little secret? Exactly what is the Release procedure used by Mr. Hogan that is "not covered in the yellow book"?

Don't be bashful: We live in a big brick house and "We ain't afraid of noth-in'! We ain't afraid!" (2:20 below)

Please . . .

Do tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFNPH...eature=related


:laughing9

Golly I would also appreciate a link to the "answer" or is it concealed in a secret module

worth looking at?
 

Secret Agent Man
 

Careful there, David. If he tells us, he may have to kill us!


:laughing9

I got a team of scientists looking into this, and expect a completely incomrehensible and useless report soon.

Ahhh, must be referring to JE aka "Lagpressure" "CP" Release.

An Honourable Company
 

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These people disrespect us and rob themselves of a terrific learning experience. To learn, you must engage. You must enter the arena, take risks, and earn your spurs. But this breed does not engage -- it hits and runs. It demands much but offers little.

We will not tolerate such behavior. We are earnest individuals seeking to learn from each other and have fun doing it. People matter here and so do their opinions.

If you've got something to say, say it. Don't wimp out. We want to hear it. If we don't agree, we'll offer our own view -- with civility.

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We will reprimand, suspend, and even expel those who do not meet these standards.

:salut:

I'm worried that this thread is going to end in an abyss of misunderstanding by introducing the "CP Release".

1. The term "CP Release" was coined by Mac O'Grady.
2. It was invented out of a couple of necessities, but foremost, I think it stems from thinking that TGM "Passive Right Arm" means a "Limp and inactive Right Forearm". Which isn't true. I'm referring to the forearm and not a Pressure Point.
3. First: The "CP Release" is essentially, Driving the Right Forearm to the Correct On-Plane Angle of Approach for Impact and keeping the Right Forearm Wedge ( or only the Right Forearm ) moving On-Plane at least until both Arms are straight. Because of "Transfer Power" from the Pivot to the Right Forearm, wherever the Right Forearm goes, the Clubhead will follow.
4. Second: (Issue - Problem) If the Left Arm is held against the Chest (Hogan) and not allowed to Swing Freely during the Impact and Follow-through Intervals, the Right Forearm cannot quite reach nor remain on the correct TGM Angle of Approach.
5. Third: So,,,,A compensation is needed. Namely, the Shoulders must go left in a Horizontal motion at Impact and Follow-through to force the Right Forearm to stay On-Plane. To make this happen, it isn't so hard for the Right Shoulder to go down and then Left because if it stops going down, it's going to come across Left sooner than later.
6. CP Release includes feeling a resistance to centrifugal force pulling the Right Arm Straight. This should be "felt" during any Swing Procedure when the Right Forearm is Driven to the Angle of Approach (Forward) because the Right Forearm is Leading the Clubhead and CF is Pulling the Clubhead On Plane - (Down and Out), AND, CF is pulling on the Right Forearm as well.
7. This "feels" like resisting CF pulling the Right Forearm Straight
8. This leads to the "feel" that you are Pulling (with the right hand) the Clubshaft Left - On Plane (Centripetal Force or CP). However, the reality is that your Right Forearm is simply continuing Down-Plane to Both Arms Straight.

Does this sound like what Hogan did? We'll never know.

When you see a Golfer's Club Swing out to the Right field (above Plane) during the follow-through, you can easily assume that the Ball was struck before the Right Forearm could reach the correct Angle of Approach. But not in all cases, because if you Flatten your Right Wrist during Impact, then the Clubhead catches up the Angle of Approach of your Right Forearm and your Right Forearm begins following the Clubhead.

So, the CP Release isn't actually a "Release" procedure as much as it may be a 'Right Forearm control procedure' when Swinging while keeping your Left Arm Welded to your chest during Impact and Follow-through. The Right Hand controls the Clubhead but the Left Wrist Controls the Clubface. Unless the Right Forearm can get to the correct On Plane Angle of Approach, the Clubface will remain open.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Awesome post Daryl!

Thanks Kev. It sounds plausible. Some of the videos of Hogans swing that were introduced in this thread show a very conspicuous shoulder turn and Right Forearm synchronized rotation through Impact and Follow-through. But, if it is in fact, what Hogan tried to do, then, in my opinion, it isn't more than a newly discovered "Compensation".

The Hogan You See (and the One You Don't)
 

Let's not forget that Ben's typical shot was a Fade. He got that Fade by tracing an Open Plane Line, i.e., a Plane Line aimed left of the target.

Normally, the Stance Line is parallel to the selected Plane Line (1-L #19). But Ben often stood Square or even Closed to the Target Line (and thus well to the right of his Open Plane Line). He did this to promote an unrestricted Backstroke (10-12-B).

I'm not relying on hearsay. Nor am I being fooled by misplaced camera angles. I've stood behind the man on the practice tee at Augusta National and watched him hit Fade after Fade from a Closed Stance.

Most observers saw the obvious: he was "swinging left" of the Target -- a motion made even more apparent because of his Stance Line. What they didn't see was that he was deliberately Tracing an Open Plane Line.

And this is how he produced his Fade.

:salut:

I didn't realize that. Tracing an Open Plane Line with a Square or Closed Stance does indeed "Look" like Swinging Left. :salut:

The long and short answer
 

In addition, Hogan played with clubs that were longer than standard (not sure if this been brought up previously).
A Shorter man with longer clubs that Traces an Open Plane Line.

Misleader of the Band
 

Uh, yes, that would look "left".

:shock:

Thanks, Drew. When one is mired in the nebulous world of Position Golf -- as opposed to the precision world of Alignment Golf -- these are the not-so-little details that can (and do) mislead.

:salut:

What'd happen if you added Angled Hinging to this and the (low within the range of ) Elbow Plane .....with all of the loss of club head travel Angled implies? What'd that look like? Just another alignment?

Great stuff today!

Much like ole Lee Buck. Film him on the target line and he appears to be swinging "left". Film him more to the right on his baseline, he looks more like a "slinger". It IS all in the book if we have a good guide. Thanks Guys!

Ole!
 

Hands well "inside" with the Club more "out front"?

Kind of like this?



:shock:

That makes sense enough to me..........This is the procedure (open plane tracing from closed stance) I employ but never thought about it like that.

The Honourable Company (Edited)
 

Pardon the interruption, but I've added substantially to my Post #216 and wish to reprint it here. The edited portions are highlighted in red.

Thank you.

Please continue!

Just one more reason why your opinion is so worthy and credible:salut:

CP and CF motions - Mac O'Grady
 

Lynn asked me to reply to the general discussion regarding CP (centripetal force)
and CF (centrifugal force) motions per Mac O'Grady. Here goes:

By way of explanation, I "managed" Mac's schools for six and half years (2001 - 2008 ). I attended over 30 schools and was part of the teaching team for these schools. I was also, at the time, one of two people allowed to use the MORAD
logo for my teaching.

CF motion uses a lateral shift of the hips beginning the downswing, with the left arm angled about 20 degrees inside to the target line at the point the left arm is parallel to the ground (know as Position 5). The right elbow moves toward the right hip. Then the right arm begins to straighten when the club is parallel to the ground (P6). The hips "elevate" to impact. Flight of the ball is predominantly a push to push/fade, although any flight is possible via club face position. Generally, it is always a higher flight than a CP motion.

A CP motion is an outward force - the rotation of the left shoulder is more level to the ground - horizontal (Mac believes the left shoulder position is monitored, not the right shoulder). The hands are brought predominantly outward, rather than moving downward, and the left arm is parallel to the target line at P5 (see above). This rotational motion is continued through impact. This motion produces a lower trajectory, and a left to right ball flight (generally).

I can tell you that a CP motion is a body driven motion - very little to no shifting of the hips, and a lower finish vs. the CF finish.

The key point with regard to other posts is that both motions are body and/or left arm driven - the right arm is not flimsy, but does not play a major role in either swing model.

At least according to Mac....

Great post, Daryl. I think a lot of the CP arguments against TGM is based on a biased TGM interpretation and not necessarily valid for TGM in general.

I agree with most of what you say here and you do a fine job at translating it to TGM terms.

But I don't agree the with the flavor you add to Hogan's stroke. The compensation part.

There are a lot of ways to release the club. One method is to launch the hands from the shoulder (the Accumulator #4 blast-off) and later fire the primary lever from the hands. A sort of biokinetic chain reaction with a rapid overtaking by the lagging component over the leading component. And a very sequenced way of striking the ball. And finished off with a very outspoken finish swivel. Another way is to keep the hands and pivot on the same angular speed and basically release the club with and from the pivot. The relationship between the pivot and the hands are then much more simultaneous and less sequenced than when you fire Accumulator #4 early.

In real worlds strokes we're probably talking shades of grey here and not black and white. But the difference between Hogan and VJ Sing isn't small in that regard.

I don't believe that any good golf stroke has a Right Shoulder location that thrusts the Right Hand on plane. They all need to thrust under plane to keep the Hand on plane.

First of all, on all videos I've seen the Right Shoulder is always in the process of turning over the hand path and not in the process of tracing the hand path. Second, a right shoulder that thrusts on plane plus a club that is thrown out due to CF plus arms that are attached to the pivot above the geometrical swing center will move the hands and the clubhead above the plane. Unless you also pull your hands towards the body to fight the CF that the club impose on your hands.

I believe that all good strokes have a thrust line from the Right Shoulder through the Right Hand that support the required hand path, included CF flyaway prevention. At least for a while. There may be ABS type motorized hinges, torquing wrists and all kinds of active hands and arms and wrists activities going on that isn't visible on the surface but still make a difference. But the push from the shoulder through PP #1 and PP#3 is just too important to be misaligned regardless of stroke pattern.

In the first type of release - the sequenced action - the shoulder to hand relationship will become gradually more outwards and forward as the arms are blast off the chest and move out from the pivot.

In the second type - where you don't blast the Left Arm off the chest your thrust from the Right Shoulder will be more downward as the hands get more underneath the shoulder. The covering shoulder as Bucket put it. The line of thrust will become more vertical and more supporting of a CP hand path - a "swing left" hand path if you wish. It will prevent the Hands from flying out.

IMO, the "swinging left" pattern has a lot to do with Accumulator #4 application and timing.

I agree that the fade partly explains what we see in Hogan's stroke, but it doesn't explane the difference between Hogan and Monty - or Freddie, just to mention a couple of great golfer that could fade the ball as good as anyone with a very different procedure from Hogan's.

Well, here we go. Thank you Fladan for your impressive examination of CP and CF Release.

My comments about the CP Release came from an interview between Ralph Perez of Gothom Golf Blog and John "Lagpressure" Erikson on January 1, 2011 just a few days ago. During the interview, "Lagpressure" credited O'Grady with coining the Term CP Release. However, my explanation of CP is taken from the Interview which reflects the way "Lagpressure" uses the Terms and the intent of the procedures. If anyone hasn't viewed the interview, then do so if you'd like at http://www.gothamgolfblog.com. If I remember correctly, go to minute 35:30 in Part one and when viewing Part 2, begin at the beginning. This should lead you directly to the issue at hand because he explains CP Release as used by Himself and in his Coaching.

I don't have a problem understanding John Eriksons point of view or the Terms as he uses them and I don't disagree with what he's trying to do with the procedure. My comments stem from people thinking that the Right Forearm is passive Limpy in TGM and as soon as someone begins Driving the Forearm, they think that they've discovered something new. My comments about the CP procedure as used and taught by "Lagpressure" being a "compensation" are correct from a TGM point of view. The Right Forearm must return to the Angle of Approach and if you don't, then going Left with your shoulder turn is a "real" solution.

John Erikson had a great interview and talked a lot about his Tour Experience and it's always interesting and fun to listen to and I would recommend it to everyone.

So, there is no "hitting" pattern in MORAD?

Very tough making Mac O' Grady statements as he changes stuff all the time as his research continues.

Loves the yellow book though

Daryl,

Are you talking about the right forearm being on the inclined plane at impact here?

Is what you mean by the RF return to the right angle of approach?

At Impact Fix, the Primary Lever is In line with a Flat and Level Left Wrist and the Right Forearm Wedge is "Intact" with a Level and Bent Right Wrist and the "Forearm" is Against the underside of the Plane while the #3 PP is On-Plane tracing the Plane Line. The Right Forearm while against the Plane is Angled Down, Forward and Outward. That's the Forearm Angle of Approach. It's not just the Angle, but it's the Angle of the Right Forearm when the Wedges are Intact, especially the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.

more mac"isms"
 

As I have discussed with Yoda, I do think Mac's CF and CP models reflect swinging and hitting patterns, but in Mac's terms.

The one point of contention I had with Mac is both swing models are from the same top of backswing position - it is a long way to CP motion from an "arc of approach" top of swing position (as compared to "angle of approach". Also, in neither case is the right forearm driving during the downswing/release.

This discussion is not about Mac; but I think his work is very valuable and as all of us should, he and we, are trying to continue Homer's work.

I haven't watched Mr. Erickson's discussion but I will definitely do so. I'm sure his insights will be valuable to us all. Thanks for the time.

Dan Malizia, PGA, LBCSI
 

Dan,

Thanks so much for this great post and your follow-up above. Your years of experience with Mac is an invaluable resource, especially now when combined with your knowledge of The Golfing Machine.

I have had many students -- amateur and professional -- but none more dedicated to the pursuit of learning and mastery of the teaching craft. It has been my pleasure and privilege to watch your dedicated pursuit over the past 2 1/2 years. Impressive.

And I know you've been "eating your own cooking": Those mid-sixties scores you've been posting lately are getting b-o-r-i-n-g! I think you're getting it! :laughing9

Proud to have you aboard, Dan, as my friend, student, counselor, and Lynn Blake Certified Senior Instructor. Thanks again for your many contributions to LBG and the benchmark of professionalism you set for us all.

:salut:

Glad you're here fladan, very interesting stuff.

Nice to hear these things from someone who got it first hand (and understood it).......sorta like talking about all things Homer with Lynn. No broken telephone so to speak.

During one of my first breakfasts with Lynn, I believe at the Cracker Barrel in Marieta....I asked him about all these other definitions of TGM things I was reading here and there. Lynn paused then made a motion as if to pull an I.V. out of his forearm arm and then held it to my arm, looked me right in the eye and said " its a mainline....from Homer to me and now to you. What you are getting is not second hand or third, its first hand".

That moment kinda stuck with me, you might say. That was a great day all around actually, in many ways.


Ob

First of all, the RFFW is only on plane for an instance. It is under plane back and down, at plane through impact and then over plane.

A guy that goes under the name Slicefixer over at golfwrx has a 9-3 drill where the students are required to hold the RFFW all the way into the finish. This may be an old drill but it was new to me. It takes a specific coordination between hands and pivot to get there. When you finish, the hands are above and in front of your left hip and the shaft points straight up in the sky.

I tried this drill today. I didn't get all the way but I was close. Certainly close enough to be convinced that you can "swing left" without compromiising RFFW.

That 9-3 drill was btw a great drill no matter how you want to strike the ball. I could even do a TGM TSP stroke afterwards.