Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 57987)

DG- you wrote-: "That post is TOTAL BS. No way does the swing with the right arm action that Tom Tomasello taught create a throw-away condition like that..."

I never inferred that it did. I merely stated that if a swinger uses a standard 4:2:3 swing pattern that there is a danger to adding right arm push-power at some point in the mid-late downswing. I stated that if one added a very active right elbow straightening action in the late downswing it could push the hands through the impact zone too fast and not provide sufficient time for a complete release of PA#3. I also stated that if one added right arm push-power via a right wrist unbending action in the late downswing it could produce flipping. I wasn't talking about TT's right arm throw action, which is a swing style where the right arm throw starts from the top.

You also stated-: "Homer considered it a viable option, I have nothing to do with it. The detailed explanation is already in the book, it's under section 7-3."

I have read 7-3. I can see no description of TT's right arm throw action in that section. Section 7-3 first deals with the relationship of the right forearm to the left arm flying wedge package in swinger's (arc of approach style) and hitters (angle of approach style) at the top of the swing. In the second half of that section HK talks of the position of the right forearm in the late downswing (whether driven or thrown) and he states-: "ALWAYS for all procedures, the Right Forearm is positioned "On Plane" - pointing at the plane line as the angle of attack. ------- The "Angle of Approach" position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact."

In other words, HK was merely describing the right forearm in relationship to the standard (4:2:3) swinger's action (where the right forearm is thrown) and a standard hitting action (where the right forearm is driven). I cannot identify a description of TT's "right arm throw" action in that section.

I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action. You are free to state whether you think that my description is right or wrong, and you are free to provide your personal perspective using TGM terminology (describing TT's "right arm throw" action in terms of the loading and release of power accumulators).

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 57987)

I have personally made an attempt to describe TT's "right arm throw" action in TGM terms. I first described it as a triple barrel 1:2:3 swing action. However, Yoda stated that I was incorrect because the "1" should be reserved for a hitting action where the right arm powers the clubshaft through impact via PP#3. TT wasn't describing a hitting action, but a swinging action. I therefore modified my description and called it a RAPF4:2:3 swing action.

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 57993)

Those sentences are well beyond my limited level of TGM understanding. I eagerly await further elucidatory/explanatory posts. The study of TGM is a fascinating endeavour and I have a lot to learn!

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 57992)

Jeff,

Thank you for all you are doing to shine the brightest light on Homer Kelley's The Golfing Machine. After some thirty years of study, I welcome your posts and know that the work itself can withstand relentless scientific scrutiny. Moreover, the Golf World has just now become empowered with a variety of scientific tools, e.g., launch monitors, that prove just how right Homer Kelley really was.

:)

Now a question:

Do you have the Third Edition?

I ask this because, in the Third Edition, the first three (of six) Sample Stroke Patterns are relevant to your posts. Specifically, these three offer examples of One, Two and Three Accumulator Patterns, all of which employ the 1-2-3 Triple Barrel Stroke (Component #4) and the Right Arm Throw Trigger (Component #20) you earlier espoused.

With, I might add, an incongruence of Grip Type and Hinge Action with the later Basic Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 in Editions 4-7. Specifically, in the Two Accumulator Pivot Stroke (12-2-0); the Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D); its Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C); and the Dual Horizontal Hinge Action of 12-1-0 and 12-3-0.

Each of which is entirely consistent with Homer's original intent, i.e., "To present the solution as a Right Arm approach to the whole game" (1-F / Editions 1-3).

Anyway, this whole argument hangs on three or four sentences across the decades.

Lets take the time on this thread to get it right.

I'll do my part.

:salut:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 57999)

Bambam,

For this thread and its interested viewers, can you provide a scan of the Third Edition's Stroke Patterns 12-1/2/3? With full credits, of course, to TGM, LLC.

Thanks!

:salut:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 57888)

DG wrote-: "Sorry guys that is incorrect....for a swinging stroke using 10-20-B, the golfer starts the downstroke by uncocking the right elbow through the muscles of the right forearm the pivot responds with a sliding action...then a rotational action during the release phase."

That's anatomically impossible. The right forearm muscles cannot straighten the bent/folded right elbow. That function is performed by the UPPER arm triceps muscle.

Forerarm muscles can only perform the following anatomical actions-:

1) Flex, extend, abduct or adduct the fingers and thumb.
2) Palmarflex or dorsiflex the wrist.
3) Radially deviate or ulnarly deviate the wrist.
4) Pronate or supinate the hand.

Forearm muscles cannot flex or extend the elbow joint because they are distal (peripheral) to the elbow joint.

If anybody contests my opinion, please be so kind to name the right forearm muscle which is "supposedly" capable of straightening the right elbow joint.

Jeff.

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 58005)

You're stuck....

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf (Post 58001)

Why not show Stroke Pattern 12-4? The most relevent pattern to this thread?