NO avoidance here....Eldrick IS NOT Hitting....you can't hit with extreme pitch elbow....

You can talk all this stuff about "release #3 hard"...the point in putting that picture up...forget about all the accumulators etc.....this MAY work for Eldrick....but it sure does look like a WHOLE LOT OF STUFF has to happen in order for the clubface to get on the ball IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME WITH A LIMITED AMOUNT OF SPACE....not saying it can't be done...but sure does look like there would be an easier way...

Critique .... #4 pressure point ABSENT...no accumulators have fired IMO at this point...hands on left thigh....shoulders extremely closed...right toe squashing bugs/butts...spine will be forced to tilt back as a result of the extreme pitch/overlap...Eldrick is certainly ooozing with talent and hits balls 8 hours a day....but does this make sense for "regular" types?

Whoever's mandating these pictures would have a hard time convincing ME to swing this way...but looks like Eldrick is all in....maybe he's learning this from some hairlipped Perkinz waitress....who knows...."we all switch chicks & instructors when we ring the bell."

If he's only about to start rolling PA3 at that point, yes it's almost impossible. But ain't he trying to release Before that, and will finally succeed or ACCELERATE at that position. So it's not as hard as it may seem. It's not as if he stopped at that position, he had momentum already before that.

Fine with me...operate your Machine as you see fit...not my bag though.

You can hit from Pitch perhaps, maybe but why would you want to? Your Right Elbow would have to move back behind the hands very quickly during Release to pull it off. If your intention is to Push , Thrust why Align your Right Elbow in front of the Hands in a Pull position so late in the swing? You've also loaded along the wrong line, Reverse #2 pp against the Top instead of #1PP (and maybe #3pp, Direct Drive) against the Aft.


That said there are these Hitters who get late (ish) with some #2 Angle even but have their Right Elbows positioned to Push or Thrust. Lynn does this I believe. Ive got some photos somewhere. Drag then Drive Hitting. To the casual observer it can look a lot like a swing but it isn't. You've got to look at the Elbow position.

It can be a very elegant Hitting procedure .......or in Arnie's case brutish. That guy was strong. And long.

We're not talking 12-1 any more here ... this isn't Drive Loading. But it is Hitting. If you have 12-1 at one end of the spectrum and 12-2 at the other ......there's a lot of middle ground. But its best to master 12-1 and 2 before moving on . Start off compensation free and pure. Luke did when he re built his swing. Id say it turned out pretty good too..... Didn't take that long either.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...s/image009.jpg

Is there a difference?

HB

I think so....do you see 'em? Frankly...I don't like either one all that much.

I see:
TW is a high speed frame or two ahead.
less hip slide, little more down right shoulder.

I love it- about as small as the pulley can be made. Not that that is the be-all, end-all

If I say they are both horizontal hinge with appropriate sequenced release will I have to duck?

HB

Darn, I really need to get that yellow book...:D...

No doubt particularly if you standing to the left....

So what would be the implications of having this small of a pulley THIS LATE? I don't know nothing about Trackman...but it sure does seem like there is a lot of "Down" Vertical Swing Plane or whatever them cats call it to make up...Plus the clubhead is NOT thrown out to the ball at this point....so it seems like you'd be "swinging out on it" more or more positive horizontal swing path or whatever...and how do you not have some big ole shaft lean and with a driver no less....and your shoulders are closed...so your right shoulder geometry ain't working OUT and FORWARD to the ball ...yet....so seems like the tendency would be to swing under and out and raise the handle/shaft up off the plane ...because of the vertical motion of the right shoulder?

you're the physics cat...you swing the weight on the string...don't the weight want to fly out? Why delay the weight slinging out that long? You love it...but for what reason? Cuz it looks purty? Or because it is functional? If the clubhead were more out to the ball at this point...what would you be giving up in terms of MPH? What would you potentially gain in terms of hitting the ball where you is looking?

How do you square your statements with....

Right Forearm Position at the Top differs for the Angle and Arc of Approach procedures. So their Elbow location and action differs also. For Hitting (10-19-A), the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with – and directly opposed to – the motion of the On Plane Loading Action (7-22) of the entire Primary Lever Assembly (6-A) not just the Clubshaft, and this alignment is maintained through Impact (2-J-3, 4-D). For Swinging (10-19-C) the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with – and directly opposed to – the motion of the On Plane Loading of the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft) and this alignment maintained through Impact. In compliance with both 6-B-3-0-1 and 10-11-0-3. With this “in-line” relationship of Loading and Right Forearm, it is absolutely MANDATORY that, Hitting or Swinging, it is the Right Forearm – not just the Right Hand and/or Clubshaft – that must be thrown, or driven, into Impact per 7-2-3

I am going to try and answer all with one YouTube clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cns3T...eature=related

Make that two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLzaiZKP-M


HB

:eyes: :happy3: This is the answer? .... what's the title of these videos? How To Be A Handle Raising Under Plane Wrist Rubber?



Sorry man but this is TERRRRRRRRIBLE.....



Right shoulder has STALLED...face has rolled to the ground....looks like a great idea....if you want to hit it really low and you don't care where it goes...

From a pure physics point of view the closer the shaft and clubhead to your body, the lower the MOI with respect to say the spine axis so the easier it is to keep accelerating with the pivot (same a a skater spinning with arms close to the body vs extended). Of course at some point that rotational speed need to be transferred to clubhead speed so timing becomes more and more critical as you keep clubhead lag later and later in the swing.

fair enough....but the clubhead has to get OUT to the ball...what is being demonstrated here is the HANDS AND CLUB going OUT to the ball NOT the clubhead...the clubshaft isn't CLOSE to the spine axis the HANDLE IS MOVING AWAY from him...so the clubshaft would be rising quickly through the ball with the left wrist only able to uncock and arch....

Bottom line what you say may be correct...but I submit...this AIN'T the way to do it...

I suspect that Mr Doyle wouldn't want his student to look like this, his left arm is bent and head far behind. He has a series of videos on his site with a student that seems more centered and have a straight left arm. Here's Rick Nielsen, GSEM, swing, he studied under Ben Doyle and Gregg McHatton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7HF2t_idIA


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's the best way to swing, little do I know !

Thats the machine- NO WIBBLE-WOBBLE allowed

HB

It can go anywhere if you don't account for the clubface...it's a HINGE ACTION of a circular motion on an inclined plane...so just because you have a lag pressure point and a flat left wrist and a straight plane line...that don't account for all the variables if you raise the handle and have the face rolling to the ground.....

Got it- Flat left wrist-clubface- used wrong
lag pressure point-club shaft- used wrong
straight plane line- club head used wrong

who knows where the ball will go.
I get it now.

You know if the handle come UP the plane is bent, roll the left wrist and the clubface is gone, etc. I said NO WIBBLE_WOBBLE there - all fixed

Believe- what you see in the TW pix is square clubface, horizontal hinge , no wibble-wobble, slightly forward lean at impact, very good squareing the clubface early.

HB

Fair enough....you like the super models... but fat chicks need love too.... one man's sexy is another man's fugly....that eldrick picture don't do much for me....

Got to be careful with Homers "Swinging vs Hitting". In 6-H-0 for instance he's talking True Swinging vs Drive Loading not Swinging vs Hitting general per say. In the above quote he's talking Drag vs Drive Loading , Arc of Approach vs Angle of Approach ( as an aside you can Hit and use the Arc) and assuming a certain grip type, wedges 90 degrees etc. So to answer your question , 4B Drag then Drive is a different animal, neither 12-1 nor 12-2.

Here's one for you. You say Angle of Approach is cross line, closed plane line (correctly) and then show photos of Arnie hitting a driver. Assuming Arnie positioned his ball at low point with that driver........If the Angle of Approach is a straight line from Impact to Low point .........wouldnt it, the angle of approach be straight line , square, inline with the target line?

And what are the implications to the quote above given a Hitter using the Angle of Approach who positions his ball at low point? For a Hitter using the Arc of Approach? How might these Hitters differ in terms of elbow position? Club shaft Plane Angle? Club head plane angle? Pivot participation?

There are 4B Hitters , there are 12-1 rs , there are Angle of Approachers , Hitters using the Arc of Approach , there are options, lots of options .......lots...

You know more about this junk than me....I'm trying to figure out how you can HIT/DRIVE if the forearm is directly opposed to the secondary lever...in you questions above does the positioning of the right forearm eventually change? Or can you hit from deep pitch late? IMO if you are pitch...you are pulling...

Bucket,

Every time I see Strickers great alignments lately, I think of you and your discussion of THE KING in keeping the assembly lined up for the right shoulder to assist from behind the shaft. If I remember correctly though, he was discussed as primarily a swinger? I love his motion, what do you think, and do you think he fits well into your ideas?

Kevin

I needlessly complicated things there no doubt, again, but my point is that there are so many variables . Homer's 12-1 and 12-2 are beautifully simple ,diametrically opposed , divided by the way the lag pressure is loaded and the location of the loading.... two separate identities as he put it. But in the wild you got goof balls cooking up all sorts of strange brew and some of it works pretty good too. You'd never want to teach some of this stuff but it does seem to work for those guys.

So yes agreed , from Pitch you can only Pull . Barring something entirely weird and pointless. See there I go again getting all complicated again.... Son of a ...

And yes agreed , assuming the wedges are 90 degrees to each other..... if you drive against #1 on the aft, you drive the whole Primary Lever. But ...a crap , sorry ....what about Driving against some other location? How 'bout against the Top? Direct Drive Out of #2 angle say the club shaft only. We're in the Lab now for sure with an X classification throw. If the left hand is turned to plane would you get something like a Swingers Left WRsit Throw? Sequenced? Rhetorical question there .. If this procedure works (and I know a guy who says it does and it sure likes it does when I watch him and by the way he says it still tends towards Simultaneous) wouldn't this form of Hitting be better paired with Drag Loading to load the Rotated Pressure Point the knuckle aligned to the top of the shaft? Sure seems to make sense to me.

In regard to the position of the Right Elbow it does seem to try to find the strongest position to accommodate what ever the heck the Active Right Arm is doing. The range of motion going from pure Fanning to pure inline Bending and all the in-between.

I don't know if Tiger is using a Right Arm Throw or not but on some videos he sure looks like his right arm is active to my eye. Hey do you have footage of that swing in question there? In the photo he does appear to be Pitch elbow..... Which would suggest he's not using an active Right ARm logically. But then again .... a fudge......

Nice observation....Stricker's wedges are THE MODEL for Eddie Cox Hitting Pattern....big angles not acute angles...have a look at his stats....cat is a BIRDIE MACHINE....he doesn't hit the driver all that well...I submit because he gets the left arm above his shoulder line...mixes his components...short irons...BEAUTIFUL alignments!

I love this. O.k. Bucket, are you sort of saying don't throw it away from your right shoulder, but to drive it with your right shoulder?
Thanks.

Yes sir....but not just "the right shoulder"...right shoulder being all that musckle stuff...back, chest...etc.

If you are right handed and you are getting ready to push your fridge, what would you do? Try it out and holla back...launching pad vs fly wheel...pivoting to push vs. pivoting to pull.

I'm with you O.B. Keep 'er close and push away.
Being in Yoda's crowd is pure G.O.L.F. Nirvana.

Thanks for the reply Bucket! Your posts are very much appreciated! :salut:

Kevin

big wheels keep on turning
 

Strickers alignments should be the model for almost everybody maybe. Certainly the average golfer. You're right Bucket , we all tend to want Pitch , Snap and for most of us its beyond our grasp.

Theres a perception out there that Homer was all about "lag" as left wrist cock deep into the swing.... which is wrong on many levels.


I heard a story about this one time Homer was teaching a group of guys and talking about the Turning Shoulder Plane (you know like Furyk , it was a more popular type swing back in the early 80's) Anyways one of the students , a Mr. McSomething tells a story about a woman who keeps coming for lessons but when he sees her playing on her own she's back to the Turning Shoulder Plane stuff again. Mr McSomething then asks Homer , something to the effect of "what should I do in that circumstance?". Homer's answer? "Why don't you teacher her better Turning Shoulder Plane alignments".

This to mind is telling about the sort of lesson you might get from Homer personally.

Cool post OB! :salut:

Where is the book reference for this? I was thinking I could find it but couldn't...holla back!

Hey Bucket

Ya Im having some problems with that one too .... Ive got a bunch of posts I could point you to however.

In 2-M-3 below he mentions adding Pivot Thrust to Power Package Thrust for want of a longer club.... adding a Right Shoulder Throw to the Hitters Thrust etc. The bolded part confuses me ...what else is new.



Here's some posts from Ted and Lynn that show Drag then Drive references.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=132642082 1

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=132642082 1

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=132642082 1

This could certainly use more reference support and detailed discussion...

Book reference, audio tape, quotes? The book seems to steer clear of it maybe.

Ted in the quote above mentions that in the audio tapes Homer revealed that Drag Loading , the Swingers Start Down was "advantageous" for both Hitting and Swinging.

I dont see how a strong pivot like say Arnie's could not be considered #4 power. Pulling. Left Arm. Maybe if the left arm was bent? I dunno.

I have a different take....if it is pushing....could the pivot not push the left arm???

Sorry maybe I screwed things up.

Im talking about Drag Loading then Drive Out. The Swingers Startdown the right shoulder pushing the left shoulder around which pulls the Left ARm and power package down plane, loading the lag pressure point followed by a muscular Drive Out Action, Right ARm Throw . Here in Release yes the Right Arm pushes against the Primary Lever (left arm and club).

This all sounds Switty to me? The question is...is the motion of the right shoulder inhererntly different for Swinging vs. Hitting? Is Fly Wheel motion different than Launching Pad motion?..........if it weren't.......why draw the distinction?

Homer wasn't a big fan of Drag then Drive 4B Hitting. But its still not as conflicted as Pull and PUsh at the same time in Release . Its usable for power shots.

Yes , Fly wheel and launching pad are very different in terms of shoulder motion, movement. Thats classic 3B stuff. When you go 4B Hitting ..... introduce Shoulder Work instead of Motion to Hitting its a different animal. High powered but somewhat conflicted. Arnie takes his Right Shoulder right on through the shot to my eye while he's Thrusting a Right Arm Throw. So does Luke and a bunch of guys on tv.

Luke likens it to having your launching pad on the move for added power. The problem with it is created back in Startdown however.... if you go to End load the Rotated Lag Pressure Point and Drag it all down plane to Release ..... classic Drag Loading .... you're not likely to be aligned to PUSH on the Aft towards the Aiming Point. You need to make compensational moves or alignments , grip change etc. You can get it all done but Homer asked "why bother". Its a question that was more relevant in his era maybe or for the amateur golfer? I dunno.

In short the distinction was drawn by Homer as part of the two [b]uncompensated [/B} basic swing patterns , one pushing one pulling , 12-1 and 12-2. Beautiful things. 3B things. Don't frig with them till you have them mastered.

I'd debate you on this one....I think the right shoulder motion is entirely different regardless of the number of barrels being used.....