Re: Look at batters
 

What I meant was, he doesn't turn his shoulder 90 degrees to his "target line". In frame 3, he has as much shoulder turn as he ever gets...and it aint much! This is an awesome link by the way! I love the Tony Gwynn commentary. As a former baseball player I love stuff like this!

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

Burner,

Seems that you may be miss identifying the major flail of the golf swing which is formed by the left arm and club. Alternatively you may be misinterpreting somehow :roll: that I would be suggesting, after much discussion of flailing that the rigid structure of arms would remove flailing. This is not the case. Think extensor action.

If however you are suggesting that the firm attachment of the left arm to shoulder excludes the flailing of a flail formed by the lever from the spine to shoulder (roughly) and the left arm, that is true but a secondary effect in power generation.


Golfie

Re: Look at batters
 

Trig,

Seeing as how most homerun hitters are dead pull hitters, even if he's starts off sqared away , he's still about 35 degrees closed to his target line to start.

Barry does have amazing lag. Seeing this is very humbling and explains why I could never hit a softball very far in the corporate league. After all these years of golf, I could never imagine trying to be so open at impact. As a result, poor rotation. a quitting stroke to be sure.

Golfie

"Mid-body tension does not do anything other than cause discomfort."

](*,)

Re: Golfer's Flail
 

burner the above tells me why you have been so adament that the turning the hips doesn't add any acceleration...i hear a big "swoosh" difference doing the above with either arm and i'm willing to bet mj does as well...given your stated disdain of tension my guess is that you have slack so that when you turn the hips the torso->shoulder->arm->hand->club don't immediately follow along...

-hcw

hcw,

=D>

Re: Look at batters
 

As the teenagers say these days: "True dat!" :D

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

Golfie,

I may have "misinterpreted" what you were saying and probably still do. :?

However, the point I was trying to make is that a rigid spoke/arm attached to a spindle/torso, which is what I thought you were referring to, would not generate anywhere near the speed by rotation of the spindle that our golfing flailis capable of.

Our golfing flail requires no rotary motion to generate, and transfer, its power from top to bottom. This is done by the straightening of the assembly to its in-line condition: arm power in hitting and centripetal force in swinging.

As Homer was fond of reminding us, the golf swing is a body transported - not powered - arm swing.

Mike,

A Cricketer's throw, like a baseball pitch or baseball Outfielders throw, also begins from a position perpendicular, not square, to the intended line of flight of the ball.

Neither baseball Outfielders or Cricketers (who, arguably, throw as flat and fast as your average pitcher) find it necessary, or advantageous, to precede the release of the ball by the lifting, and waving about in the air, of the front foot. Such a motion has no mechanical advantage whatsoever, no matter how macho it appears to be.

A "throw" is a throw, is a throw.

Strike out! :wink:

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

ah, i think here maybe is the misunderstanding...burner, i (and i think mj) are not saying that hip rotation TOTALLY power the stroke, just that if you use hip rotation to start the whole assembly accelerating (transport) and then ADD the acceleration of the "straightening of the assembly to its in-line condition" you can get higher accelerations than if you just do the later...if (and it can be a big IF imho) you impact the ball in the same manner both ways, the added acceleration will cause the ball to go farther...as a corollary, the more hip acceleration you add, the farther you can hit the ball...however the more hip acceleration you add (imho) the more difficult correct impact becomes and incorrect impact can lose you distance as well...as for throwing, i know baseball players are taught to line up their shoulders down the target line, step toward the target and have the shoulder and arm follow...don't cricket bowlers (correct term?) take steps before they throw?...same idea.

-hcw

Pitchers, the mound and physics
 

IMHO the intent of the pitchers leg kick is to ensure that he moves as far down the mound as possible thereby turning as much potential energy into kinetic energy as possible.

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

In Cricket Bowling and Throwing are two entirely different things and the mechanics are mutually exclusive.

Bowling requires the arm that delivers the ball to be completely straight throughout the delivery motion.

We seem, however, to have moved well away from the original issue, being swing power generation from the ground up - a ridiculous concept if ever there was one - and it might now be time to bring this discussion to a conclusion.

I conceed that the body "transportation" not only facilitates the free, on plane, swinging ("transportation") of the arms but has a secondary function in that there is a little (about 10 ====> 15% I understand) enhancement of swing speed.

What I cannot agree is that there is any force that can be brought to bear from the ground up that will propel the club down, nor can I subscribe to the theory that hip rotation causes the arms to swing down and, somehow, powers their motion.

Nevertheless, I reckon we must all be about through with this subject by now so - probably to everyone's great relief :lol: - I will butt out.

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

Our discussion has been all about what powers the golf swing. That the body transports the arms is an obvious statement that does not address the topic. If you can find a direct quote from Homer that supports this statement, please provide.

It is the rotation of the primary lever assembly of a flail that provides the mechanism to transfer angular momentum from the primary lever to the second lever. Agree or Disagree?

In your one armed experiment, what on earth do you think causes the club to accelerate and pass the hands?

As you not to ascribe power generation capabilities to the rotating body, it seems that you may not yet understand how it is possible to transmit momentum from the body into the clubhead. A simple modification of your one armed experiment should suffice. As before, swing your golfers flail in a one armed fashion. Note the whoosh. Now add the right arm by gripping the left wrist. Use this as a strut to create a firm structure. Flex your abs as firmly as possible - this ensures that hip rotation yields torso rotation. Rotate the hips. Note the WHOOSH. There is significant increase in peak clubhead speed. Agree or Disagree?

BTW the one armed golfers flail is relatively ineffective at generating high speeds. Burner’s experiment probably showed this to most. Generally, high speeds are attained in flails where the secondary lever is significant shorter and or lighter than the primary lever.

Adding the right arm adds effective mass to th eprimary lever as noted by Homer.

Golfie

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

i think lagster's original question was where did the long-drive guys have the highest acceleration and how did they accomplish it...my theory was that it is at impact an they achieve it by starting the acceleration with things furthest from the clubhead (legs/hips) and then add acceleration of the parts in sequence (torso->shoulders->arms->wrists/hands->clubhead) and waiting as long as possible to release the clubhead...that "little" 10-15% enhancement you mentioned would be the difference between 300 yds and 330-345 yds...an enhancement most would welcome i believe...as for how the ground forces help out i found this interesting site when i searched for info on cricket bowling:

http://www.rlca.com.pk/biomechanics.asp

...check out Figure 4. and the paragraph above it (hint: in golf the hip bump/slide/rotation = the run up+leap)...i already tried to illustrate how in a golf stance rotation of the hips can move the arms/hands/club up and down the inclined plane...since that didn't do it for you i think it is also time for me (on this subject) to keep silent!:-#

-hcw

Maybe I am missing something in this discussion.

Zone 1 is body movements and balance and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships....(9-1)

Included in Zone #1 are the Pivot, Shoulder Turn, Hip Turn, Hip Action, Knee Action and Foot Action

Zone #2 adds the Arms and the Club to the circular motion of the Pivot just for the generation of Clubhead Power (10-19-0). (9-2)

Included in Zone #2 are Grips, Grip Types, Basic Stroke, Stroke Types & Variations, Fix, Address, Pressure Point Conmbinations Left Wrist Action, Lag Loading, Trigger Types, Power Package Assembly Point, and Power Package Loading Action.

(6-C-0)Accumulator Lag (7-19) and/or Thrust (7-11) determine the amount of Power generated by the Power Package -- Zone #2 (9-2).

Now all that said, we have :

Pivot Lag (9-1) is Body Power for Swingers (2-M-4), launching pad for Hitters (2-M-3), and for both, operates like a "gear train" to extend the Swing Radius of the Pirmary Lever to any point from teh Shoulder Turn on down to the Feet (Zone #1). Both Inertia and the Moment Arm of the Thrust act the same in that the farther from the center the greater the authority.

(7-12) Pivot .....It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer of the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).

My understanding the Pivot though it doesn't generate the power, it can amplifly the power that is generated. For example standing in place and throwing a ball overhand you have a limit how much you can do. Now take and do the same motion while running, you have extended you range cause you are no longer stationary (the power package) but it is on a moving transport that amplifies it. Maybe not the correct terms but I think the idea comes across.

Martee,

What I think we have here is basic difference in terminology. In a physics sense "What powers the swing" is the legs. Eg. what does the work to power up the rotor. In a golfing sense of "Boy that's a powerful swing" it is mostly techique - power accumulators, alignments - that produce high clubhead speed by harnessing the momentum of the body via the Golfers Flail. Utmost importance must be placed oupon techinique. Almost everyone is capable, assuming the technique is in place, of turning fast enough to propel a golf ball a long way.


Golfie

and all the people said...AMEN! =D>

Proabably with a doubt terminology is at question when we enter these discussions. Between what we have read, what we feel, what we think we are doing, all adds to this problem.

That is where I find TGM to add clarity. The Zones as defined, the Muscles used, etc.

But even in physics the base unit that the motor is mounted on (Iron Byron) is not considered what powers the rotator movement. Without a doubt it does play a role, but I can't see that it is what does the powering.

Maybe I am missing your point.

Topic has legs, so do good golfers
 

Point is the legs are the motor.

Re: Topic has legs, so do good golfers
 

Well that makes it simple, we disagree. TGM doesn't support the legs as the motor and I don't subscribe that either.

I would ask if the legs are the motor, then what would be the type legs reqguire to play power golf? (Like in running, sprint runners vs long distance running.) Also how did Hogan do it after his accident. At the LA Open he could barely walk but yet he cranked to ball out there.

The biomechanics and speicifc exercises for golf seem to support that legs /lower body require strength for stabiliztion as well as endurance to play 36 holes. Now the lower body does control the hips, amount of rotation, amount slide possible.

I tried kicking my right knee inward to move my hip. I had to reach the run out before the hip was moved my this motion. That basically would place the knee in what may be considered post impact position or close to it. Shifting weight? Is this changing the pressure between legs? Still no power generation that I can feel.

Hip turn
 

Martee,

We can agree that weight shift is irrelevant to power generation (with obvious exclusion of alignment issues.)

There are many muscles in the legs all with their particular functions. I cannot tell you which (and be sure to include the glutes) do turn the hips but I know they are down there.

You can turn your hips can't you? And you do not have to turn them fast to produce momentum. Do muscles muscles other than those in the legs cause your hips to turn?

Do you understand that you cannot turn your hips with muscles in the upper body? Well at least not in the directions that golf downstrokes require.

Golfie

Re: Hip turn
 

Add the hamstrings for rotation along with the glutes which as I understand it don't belong to the lower body/leg grouping. Also the oblique's play a role as well.

It is not clear to me which muscles cause which movement since I have conflicting data.

Again I will go back to my premise, the lower body amplifies the power of the upper body. You can't swing the golf club with only lower body movement, you can however swing the golf club without lower body movement (e.g. sitting on chair and hitting the golf ball).

Let's clarify
 

Martee,

Have you bought into any of Jack Kuykendall's notions. Jack hits balls from a stool, hits them quite well. Unfortunately he sits on a swivel seat and rotates 45 degrees on BS and through 90 degrees on DS - powering from the legs. Pure junk if you have.

How far can you hit a ball while seated? Anywhere close to full distance? If so you have an amazingly strong torso and have at it.

If your answer is 200yds. I regret to inform you that in order to move that ball out there 300 you need to find not 50% more power but 125% more power. You would only find this kind of muscle mass in the legs. This is not amplification . This is the real deal.

Muscles above the hips do not turn the hips. period. Think the twist. Equal and opposite reactions etc...

What happens in the golf swing is the hips rotation drive everything else. If you want add some torso firing, left shoulder effort or anything else into moving your golfers flail, have at it and enjoy the struggle.

I'm done

Golfie

Golfie,

Can you show us the formula that you used to come up with a 125% more power to move a golf ball from 200 to 300 yards??? Under normal math conditions, the number should be 150%!!!

I have seen one study conclude that the body only contributes 4.6% clubhead speed and 8.9% Power to the golf swing....with those numbers I would have to come to the conclusion that the body really makes a minimal contribution to the distance the golf ball travels.

Go to chapter 9 of TGM

Quotes from 9.1

ZONE #1 includes all the elements of Body movement and balance, and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships of the Body Components.

“The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso.

Quotes from 9.2

ZONE #2 adds the Arms and the Club to the circular motion of the Pivot just for generation of Clubhead Power (10-19-0). Zone #2 includes all the elements of the Force and Motion of the Arms and Club action—the Power Package—strictly the development of Clubhead Power rather Ball manipulation.

Quotes to ponder!!!

DG

Where Angels Fear To Tread
 

Man, I love this place!

then why do we all bother to turn our hips?...hmmm, 250 yds.*1.089=272.25 yds...ah yes, now i remember, greed! \:D/

-hcw

Mathematics and what powers the swing
 

DG,

Glad you could join us. I assumed that most would have tuned out this discussion.

In order to adequately address your question, we’ll have to introduce another physics term: Work is what you get when a power source (e.g. muscles) operates over a period of time.

Power * Time = Work

In terms of what this means in terms of velocity of the clubhead, you can use this formula:

Work = Kinetic energy (KE) = 1/2mv*v (1/2 mass times velocity squared)

So let's say that the 200 yds swing had a clubhead speed of 100 mph (not true but bear with me - just keeping it simple) and the 300yd drive had a clubhead speed of 150 mph.

This means that the differential in work as expressed as a % increase to go from 200 yds to 300 yds is:

(150*150 - 100*100)/(100*100) = 1.25 or as I said above 125%.

Stated in another way - and ignoring the units and absolute values - the 300yd swing requires 2.25 times the power source. This is actually at a minimum as there is a second factor here - namely that the more muscles you recruit (thereby increasing your rotor motor horsepower), the sooner the swing is over. Therefore you need even more muscle to do sufficient work in the shortened timeframe.

Re: the very low % ascribed to body power in studies you mentioned. Please provide references if you could. One needs to scrutinize these carefully as often they make statements like" well the hips can only more 2 mph" and do not understand anything about angular motion. Jorgenson in "The Physics of Golf" determines that only the legs contain enough muscle mass to power the golf swing.

Golfie

Re: Mathematics and what powers the swing
 

GMcG,
doesn't the above calculation make the assumption that all the difference in KE from 100 to 150 mph is transferred to the ball?...i don't think a 150 mph impact speed clubhead slows to 100 mph during impact...anyway, as i've said before i think it is the equation F=ma that answers the distance question and not velocity but acceleration at impact that makes the most difference (assuming equal clubs and equally good ball contact) and that is why slow easy swings with late release and therefore high late acceleration can hit the ball as far or farther than some really hard swings.

-hcw

Golfie

1. I don't subscribe to JK. Have read only a little of his stuff and ......

2. You seem to rely on Jorgenson

Interesting to note Jorgenson did a paper exercise to come up with most of his conclusions. Actually regarding the power, he used the formula and applied it to the golf swing. Based on a professional golfer generates 2 hp (not sure where this number came from) he deduced that it require 32 pounds of muscles or 1/8 horsepower per pound and muscles must be used in pair, so 32 lbs. Since the arms and shoulders don't have 32 lbs he reasoned that other muscles must be used. Those were the legs, buttock, back aand abdomen. He considered these to be the lower body muscle group.

The hips are key to momentum transfer. If hip action is initiated it is with the buttock's muscles. The leg muscles (hamstrings) can push and pull the hips.

I find that in the introduction by Jorgenson, his description of Chapter 3, "... explains how the golf swing compares to theaction of a bullwhip, how the large muscles of the lower body, although they are not connected to the arms are used to enhance the speed of the golf club, how the pull of the shoulder on the arm works in the golf swing and who we find that the golfer does not swing about a quiet center in the downswing."

I find his choice of words, 'enhance' to support the position I have held and what I have said. I stated earlier that the lower body 'amplifies' allowing greater power.

As for the hip movement, I subscribe to this being either the first action in the down stroke, or as the golfer is about to complete the back stroke (for those who want a reference 12-3-0 section 6 #24).

Golfie,

Thanks for the follow-up with your equation....looks good!


The source of my study on clubhead speed and power comes from Mark Evershed's book....The Golf Solution....

Here is an excerpt from that study....

If you still believe that the body creates the speed and power in your golf swing, and pervious pages have not yet changed your mind, You can stilll prove it to yourself by following the directions below. You will need a device to measure your clubhead speed.


S1 After warming up, measure the clubhead speed of your driver using your normal swing and averaging the three highest readings. This figure respresents 100% of your speed and energy potential.

S2 With your feet together, swing and measure your clubhead speed. (This eliminates the contribution of the body).

S3 From your knees, swing your driver and again measure your clubhead speed (This eliminates the body and the sequence (vertical drop).


S4 Finally, while still on your knees, swing the club with your hands, wrists, and forearms stiff or immobilized. The clubshaft should point at the middle of your chest during the entire swing. (This eliminates the body, vertical drop and hands, and measures only the contribution of the arm swing).


Here are Mark Eversheds results....someone who is accomplished golfer....

Quiet Body Clubhead velocity Contribution 4.6%
Clubhead Power Contribution 8.9%

Educated Hands Clubhead velocity Contribution 60.0%
Clubhead Power Contribution 58.9%

On-Plane Arms Clubhead velocity Contribution 19.1%
Clubhead Power Contribution 3.6%

Sequence (Vertical Drop) Clubhead velocity Contribution 16.3%
Clubhead Power Contribution 28.6%


The above exercise is in Mark's book....if you do the above procedures and send in your inputs Mark will mail back your results...


Mark's golf swing is based on an arm swing (right arm swing)....


The vertical drop term means, the start of the swing is a dropping action of the arms....

Quiet Body term means....the body is responding to the action of the swinging hands and arms.....the right forearm is supplying the arm acceleration.

DG

Re: Mathematics and what powers the swing
 

Hcw,

Calculation used to determine the relative amounts of energy required by the Golfing Machine to reach various velocities – not modeling around impact.

Other matters you allude to such as seemingly slow swingers out hitting those moving faster are cases of efficient transfer of power producing late clubhead speed. This is a matter of technique.

Golfie

Evershed
 

DG,


This doesn't seem terribly scientific or reasonable. For instance it may be that S2 tests a player’s balance or the contribution of lateral movement in the swing but eliminates the contribution of the body? Nope.

I suspect that he may have an agenda here.

Golfie

Martee,

I have read Jorgenson and am glad that you have as well. I do not consider Jorgenson to be a definitive work (science does not stand still) and even within the quotes you have provided there is an error that I will show you that is pertinent to the discussion.

Now let’s be clear about what we are talking about. We are talking about which muscles perform the work (physics sense) that causes the rotor of 7-12 to spin and drive the Golfer’s Flail.

Choices are:

Leg muscles that drive hip rotation.
Torso muscles that drive torso rotation relative to the hips.
Care to add any??

Can we at least agree on the topic and choices?

Golfie

dg,
well this probalby illuminates why we were on different sides of this issue...i disagree that the above exercises eliminate the body components as listed...in all of these your hips are still moving and this is powered by muscles in you legs...S2 and S3 maybe eliminate some hip turn velocity b/c of decreased balance ( for S3 depending on how far apart your knees are), but especially problematic is S4 which i think does pretty much the opposite of what's stated as far as the body element goes...if your arms are fully extended and immoblized then none of the arm muscles including the trail tricep do anything...what is moving the whole assembly are you hips via you leg muscles and maybe some torso muscles, you have really eliminated everything BUT the body/hips/legs!

-hcw

Re: Mathematics and what powers the swing
 

GMcG,
fair enough on the first point and totally agree on the second...however, i think the problem is that so much focus is often put on the parameter of clubhead velocity that it becomes the ultimate goal and obscures the more important technique of "efficient transfer of power" which i call "maximizing acceleration" at impact...well at least that's what happened to me, i think :(...luckily, that is slowly but surely being corrected!:-)

I am not sure where this is going, what you are trying to prove but the original discussion has long since been left behind and you continue to reframe the questions.

I also don't know where I incorrectly posted a quote, unless it was a spelling error, what did I quote wrong?

As for last suggestion, I can only conclude I am either not making myself clear or you are not reading what I have wrote.

Obviously we are having a failure to commincate.

I would be interested in seeing your references to back your position, cause I think it is clear Jorgenson doesn't but does support my position.

As for work, that was not what we were discussing.

As for the most powerful swing, if a golfer didn't use his entire body and longest club he would be a fool.

Power sources and not understanding
 

Martee,

I will post, in the next couple of days, a whole treatise on which muscles are useful for powering the golfer's flail. As to not responding to your comments specifcally there are many particular comments I could have made along the way but was hoping not to have to overeducate. It appears that more of a treatise approach may be more benfieical for anyone who still cares as the post-response dialogue inevitably leads to wiggling, misunderstandings due lack of common base, talking at cross-purposes, and sidetracking. I now more appreciate why Yoda goes to such lengths to compose comprehensive responses to significant rather tyahn trying to go along step by step.

Until then enough for now.

Golfie
P.S. It was not your mistake but Jorgenson's for listing incompatible muscle groups in his search muscle mass.

This is getting very interesting!!

I believe that one's PERCEPTION of WHAT is POWERING a golf stroke may be, and often is different than what actually is the case, in the most efficient and powerful strokes. One may FEEL the whole thing with their HANDS, but we know there is much more going on. One may FEEL SOMETHING within ZONE 1, but that does not negate the contributions of ZONE 2, AND 3, whether the golfer is aware of them or not.

PIVOT LAG(6-C-O) is in there in the most efficient and powerful strokes. Try to stand on ice and strike a ball... you will see!!