LynnBlakeGolf Forums - Standard Hip Action vs. Delayed Hip Action

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 88477)

Whip,

With love in my heart, I write this Open Letter to you.

Scrolling through all the posts in this thread, there is no doubt that you have a wonderful understanding . . . of all you understand. You also skillfully articulate that understanding and defend it with passion. Bravo!

But . . . you also have a big missing piece. (Please don't take this last statement and the 'point-counterpoint' in this thread personally; it is how we learn.) And that missing piece was the subject of my first post here (#5); specifically, the Hitter's Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3 / B). It is this procedure that necessitated -- indeed required in Homer Kelley's own case -- the Pre-Turned Right Hip.

The Angle of Approach procedure and its derived Angle of Approach Plane Angle dictated that a more "inside" Path be made for the Hands in the Backstroke. That Path had nothing to do with Standard Hip Turn (Hips leading Shoulders) or Delayed Hip Turn (Shoulders leading Hips) or whatever. It had solely to do with Homer Kelley realizing that he had to pre-clear his own Right Hip so that his Hands could take the very Steep (but Inside) Backstroke Path. In so doing , the Clubhead could then COVER (not 'Point at' or 'Trace') the Angle of Approach Plane Line.

And COVERING the Angle of Approach (with the Clubhead) is what the Angle of Approach procedure is all about. If the Clubhead merely 'points' at the Angle of Approach (to the originating, geometric 10-5-A Plane Line), then you would be Tracing it, as if it were a 'normal' Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) with its own unique Angle of Approach (and Attack). And that ain't the case: The Angle of Approach Plane retains the identical Impact and Low Points of the original Geometric Plane Line. As Homer so eloquently (and to most readers, mysteriously) stated in the 6th edition, "There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure . . . " .

That last quote is not in your book (I understand you have the 4th edition). Nor is it in the 5th. In fact, Section 2-J-3, the player's Visual Equivalents of the true On Plane Angle of Attack and Arc of Attack, did not even exist in the first three editions of The Golfing Machine. These were the things, Homer would say, that "seeped through slowly". As the Good Lord gave him more time, he wrote them down.

Section 2-J-3 was introduced in the 4th edition and revised extensively over the next four years in the 5th and 6th editions. Still, he wasn't satisfied, and he continued to tweak the verbiage. A final version (transcribed from revisions he left) appeared in the 7th edition, 23 years after his death. None of the information in the earlier editions was wrong, it was just that Homer tried desperately in so many different ways to get the same points across to us . . . points that to him seemed so self-evident and simple, but which he learned we simply could not understand.

Personally, I think mastery of the two Visual Equivalents and their two procedures (Swinger's Arc of Approach and Hitter's Angle of Approach) requires an understanding of Section 2-J-3 in each of the editions 4, 5, 6, and 7. If you don't have those editions, well, you don't have them. One more reason to search my archives.

Putting a red ribbon around our personal give-and-take over the last couple of days, the Pre-Turned Right Hip is not so much a Delayed Hip Action procedure as it is an enabling Angle of Approach procedure.

For 'the rest of us' -- if you've read this far -- I know this post sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook. To which I can only say, in its defense, that it is correct and that it will be worthwhile to those whose journey takes them there. Knowing that, I can sleep. Otherwise . . .

I've wasted an hour of my life.

:salut:

RED MEAT......Rich fatty caramelized seasoned perfectly.....beautiful stuff here....

YOU HAVE NOT WASTED AN HOUR OF YOUR LIFE....YOU HAVE DELIVERED THE VERY BASIS OF THE SYSTEM THAT IS THE GOLFING MACHINE ....PERFECTLY!!! AS USUAL NO DOUBT!!! GREAT POST....

PIGGY BACKING HERE....

The thing to keep in mind in all this...for the hands to go IN (as stated above particularly in an angle of approach procedure)...the right hip MUST "get outta the way" ...IMO EARLY....this is the beauty of what Homer was systematizing....IN HOMER'S MIND THE EARLIEST WOULD BE....BEFORE THE HIP IS SET "IN MOTION"....Some will achieve the required depth "dynamically"...depth as required by the selected delivery line and/or plane angle...

remember ALL GEOMETRY STEMS FROM IMPACT GEOMETRY.....hence the crucial importance of 2-J-3....the sweetspot is executing a DIFFERENT MOTION IN A HITTING VS. SWINGING PROCEDURE...therefore your delivery lines and hand paths are necessarily different....another factor is the plane angle....essentially the lines in your 2-J-3 Ben Doyle-ish mat on the ground are dictated a. by your procedure b. selected delivery line c. plane angle....so as the plane angle steepens and flattens the delivery lines and hand path NECESSARILY CHANGE...which also implies a change in the pivot....that is why the pictures of the King are sooooooooooo sexy....beautiful GEOMETRY....his swing in his younger days was very much unappreciated....this cat wasn't just a brute....he had HOT lines....

I doubt Palmer had a clue about his procedure....BUT his geometry arrived at likely spontaneously rather than systematically is beautifully compliant with 2-J-3 Angle of Approach Hitting Procedure....Homer states that the pivot is to comply with the delivery line....

Note how AP's shoulder lines, right hip depth in connection to the left knee line and his left arm all are approximately parallel and in my mind ...RELATED TO THE ANGLE OF APPROACH...

Note the standard knee action...allowing the right hip to reach deep....to tilt the hip girdle...tilt the shoulders...achieving a relationship that to me is related to the angle of approach delivery line....

Even his neck and head seem to be tilted such that his eye line is compliant with the angle of approach...

Note the primary lever assembly's (left arm and club)relationship to the right shoulder (back stop in the hitting procedure)...truly an uncompensated alignment from which the right forearm and pivot can LAUNCH/DRIVE OUT...the sweetspot....

Note the beautiful level right wrist (don't so much like the archy left wrist but nobody is perfect)....the hitter being reliant on ALIGNMENTS cannot afford to have a slack laden set of flying wedges...no double cocked slingy wedges...the swinger can get away with it...not the hitter...with his simultaneous release he can't have no double cocked right wrist that he has to wait for cf to line up....very much like keeping the left arm UNDER the right shoulder...no wasted space,motion or slack....lines very much compliant to the selected delivery and release type required to execute the selected hitting procedure...can't count on old cf to help you line up your junk...better have your alignments correct ... the throw out of the sweetspot is "IN YOUR HANDS" literally and figuratively...you won't be getting an assisted from a cf palm to plane karate chop...3 stage rocket release....you got them batteries connected and the firing is happening all at the same time...no building up in this release type.

AP's hands are DEEP...allowing for the Sweetspot to be delivered out to the plane line at a faster rate than the swinger due to the SIMULTANEOUS RELEASE TYPE COMPLIANT with the Hitting Procedure...this is why NO MIXING....the sweetspot is driven out and off the face of the plane EARLIER...so as not to "come over the top"...the handpath is necessarily more inward in the Angle of Approach procedure...the elbow IS NOT PITCHED...it is PUNCH...there fore compliant with the required release type to comply with Hitting.

The left arm striving for depth as dictated by the angle of approach's INWARD direction...the left arm (top leg of the primary lever) NEVER ABOVE THE RIGHT SHOULDER...

THE DUAL AGENT IN THE POWER PACKAGE....ALLOWING THE ABILITY OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER TO MAN HANDLE THE LEFT ARM...LAUNCHING THE PRIMARY LEVER DOWN PLANE IN RELATION TO THE ANGLE OF APPROACH...WITH THE LEFT ARM NEVER RISING ABOVE THE RIGHT SHOULDER(DUAL AGENT..PART OF PIVOT AND POWER PACKAGE) THERE IS CONSIDERABLY LESS "SPACE", "SLACK", "TIME", "MOTION" TO "MAKE UP"....THE HITTER FROM THIS ALIGNMENT CAN IMMEDIATELY BEGIN TO DRIVE THE SWEETSPOT DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE....the clubhead never falling behind the hands as in swinging....

note the comparative lack of depth in the right hip in Toms and Eldrick....Primary Lever ...lifted up...less deep...set up for a delivery line that is the geometric plane line...thus better set up to swing...

Note the picture of Robert Garrett (OLYMPIC DISCUS CHUCKER IN EARLY 1900'S)....preparing to LAUNCH the discus....he would NEVER allow the mass of the discus to rise ABOVE his right shoulder...the mass well below the right shoulder as to have NO SLACK in the system...therefore he can recruit his PIVOT to DRIVE the discus down plane....in studying discus throwing....some of their focus is on LOW POINT...otherwise the discus would be launched too high and out to the right....

Instinctive genius of the King....Systematic Genius of Homer Kelley....

I have been having some FAN-FREAKIN'-TASTIC YELLOW BOOK CONVERSATION ON THIS WITH THE EVIL GENIUS MECHANIC...EDDIE COX....IT MAY JUST BE TIME FOR ANOTHER PINEHURST REUNION????????????......HMMMMMMM?????????????

why does homer recommend delayed hip action for his swingers basic pattern and not standard hip action? Surely he is not using the the preturned hip, which is an angle of approach enabler(hitting). Wouldn't the shoulders leading the hips fit more with a carry back hitters procedure? Whereas swingers with their swing away would seem more fitting to use standard hip action.

Ps Arnold Palmer and Tommy gainey probably two of the most incredible motions ever to be seen on the PGA tour highly underrated. I thought toms was a hitter who went on to end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88482)

I got the 4th in my office...so I'm not sure if the patterns have changed based on whatever edition you may reference as far as the patterns in chapter 12....BUT....my assumption would be based on the patterns....the plane line is square square....the handpath is therefore more "straight away" for both patterns...I think delayed works better with the less depth in the geomeotric plane line delivery as opposed to an angle of approach delivery....angle of approach delivery is VERY DIFFRENT (and in my mind superior for Hitting) than a geometric plane line delivery....problem: Homer didn't leave us with a component list for an angle of approach procedure...it would certainly be interesting for somebody (maybe a certain tiny green somebody) to develop that listing....I think the components would necessarily be different...it would be an instructive undertaking for sure...

not sure if that answers your questions...BUT...remember Homer was very much not in favor of RECOMMENDING ANYTHING....so I imagine it was difficult for him to be "pigeon holed" into being restricted to the patterns in chapter 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 88484)

Homer listed delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern in the 4th 5th 6th and 7th editions, Homer layed out the basic patterns as a starting point, a recommended example, there must be a reason why delayed hip action was chosen over standard. My opinion is that because delayed is lead by the shoulders in the backstroke this variation would tend to prevent overswinging as he says vs. A swing that is lead by the hips is probably more conducive to a maximum swing radius. When looking at the rest of the components for the swingers basic pattern at least in the 5th edition he uses flat left foot action and right anchor, two components that will limit the range of motion vs. Standard foot action and standard knee action which would or could produce maximum swing radius. So as you mince your way through G.O.L.F. You may be able to lengthen the swing but it is first recommended to use a swing with emphasis on a shorter swing radius, a more anchored swing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88485)

Homer listed delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern in the 4th 5th 6th and 7th editions, is the hitters basic pattern not a component list for the angle of approach procedure? Homer layer out the basic patterns as a starting point, a recommended example, there must be a reason why delayed hip action was chosen over standard

I don't have 6 and 7 here....but plane line is square square for both in minez.....AOA requires CLOSED...if my recollection is correct...would make sense to me anyhow...So have a look AOA in the 6th I believe REQUIRES the 10-5-E plane line stance line combo....

Not sure what edition and this was discussed out here in the day...there was a pattern that Homer had in one of the earlier editions I think 3 or 5 maybe that had the grip type as 10-2-D rather than 10-2-B....that pattern MAY HAVE BEEN the 10-5-E pattern...not sure though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whip (Post 88485)

I think you are sniffing it....HOWEVER....some of the precision in this analysis is lost in the PLANE ANGLE and procedure type..."length" is a nebulous concept in my mind....TSP hands go HIGH and less DEEP...Elbow plane hands go DEEP and less high....I depending on the amount the power package is "lifted"...you COULD HAVE a really "long" swing with high hands and MAJOR hip turn in some ways allowed by standard knee action...or you could have a "short" swing with major hip turn ala Ken Venturi...one component Homer didn't make complete allowances for (other than axis tilt) is deviations in the flexibility of the spine...

Yes, correct angle of approach uses closed stance line, ...that is why I deleted that sentence. Maybe it is not the overall length that is the important factor but rather the live tension that is more easily noticed with a restriction to a motion (which would be conducive to shorter overall swing radius), such is the case with flat left foot action, right anchor and delayed hip action. I think the key is that in 10-15-b he says "tighten the left side tension and set the stage perfectly for the hips to initiate the downstroke shoulder acceleration." Which is a very crucial moment and concept when swinging. 10-19-c drag loading wants you to launch the right shoulder down plane via the hips, and as homer states delayed hip action can set the stage perfectly for this.

Of course the application must still be there, but discussing this stuff I feel my swing has improved without even picking up a club, as homer said you can do a lot of learning in your armchair. This is the beauty of the yellow book. By simply reading and studying a subject that information is absorbed into the computer, upgrading your album instantly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 88484)

Another in a long line of great post Bucket!

Didn't Homer Kelley just consider the patterns in Chapter 12 as a starting point and expect us ALL to take them in different directions? I am very fond of that approach. Keeps it very simple when starting out, and lots of OPTIONS as we become more advanced.…

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 88481)

The thing to keep in mind in all this...for the hands to go IN (as stated above particularly in an angle of approach procedure)...the right hip MUST "get outta the way" ...IMO EARLY....this is the beauty of what Homer was systematizing....IN HOMER'S MIND THE EARLIEST WOULD BE....BEFORE THE HIP IS SET "IN MOTION"....

Great stuff, 12pb. Love those pictures.

Just to make sure I understand you correctly...

Are you suggesting that a player using a Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure with Top alignments like the King in your pictures PRETURN HIS HIPS as far as illustrated in these pictures before the backstroke motion (Start Up) starts?