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  Does this drill look like a drill used /recommended by a player who believes in squaring the clubface early or late? Does it look like a drill used by a man who uses his right hand alot for imposing power? Maybe..but not to me...I love this drill...encourages sequenced release in my experience. |
Dariusz
We certainly have a very different perspective on golf mechanics, physics and biomechanics. You wrote-: "Do an experiment yourself - address the ball with a severely closed clubface with an attempt to hit the ball straight forward - you will see how hard (or even impossible) is to hook the ball in such a scenario. What will happen is that you subconsciousnessly hit the ball with a more open clubface that it was at address and most likely (depending on your swing characteristic) you'll obtain a fade pattern. No CP, CF or other forces will be ever able to overcome your subconsciousness." You claim, amazingly, that a golfer will likely fade a ball if he addresses the ball with a severely closed clubface, because you believe that the subconscious mind will overcome CF, or other biomechanical forces, that predispose to hitting the ball left if the clubface is severely closed at address. I personally don't believe that it will happen, and if it does happen, then the golfer has to markedly intefere with the natural release swivel action. Normally, the back of the left hand and clubface swivels 90 degrees when the club moves from the delivery position to the impact position. During this time period, the left wrist is also completely uncocking as power accumulator #2 fully releases. You are essentially recommending that a golfer's subconscious mind needs to interfere with this natural release swivel phenomenon, that is happening very fast in the late downswing, so that the golfer can prevent the closed clubface from closing too fast during the release swivel action. Phew! I have heard of recommended measures to prevent the ball going left, but this particular recommendation is far beyond the outer limits of my understanding of golf mechanics. If Hogan really harbored this belief, then I am not surprised that Hogan would have tried not to reveal this idea to anyone! I will resist the opportunity to formally request that you answer the obvious follow-up question - how does the subconscious mind get the arms/hands to interfere with the natural release swivel action in a controllable/repeatable manner. Jeff. |
Jeff, I am sorry that I constantly amaze you :)
In fact, you start to amaze me, too. First, for unknown reasons, you resist to try on yourself to check what I recommend you to do in order to verify if my feels are correct or not. FYI, the "shut face drill" is one of the best I know to learn proper pivot and proper impact position. Just try it and report back if you are able to hook the ball while trusting your subconscioussness. When you are driving a car - do you think about pressing the gas pedal, changing gears or turning steering wheel ? If you really do I guarantee that you are much worse driver than this who has his thoughts in the clouds and lets his/her subconsciusness drive the car. You also amaze me with lack of intuition. In your opinion, the natural release is a swivel action. Please spent more time with total beginners and you will learn that noone starts to hit the ball like Hogan (Cotton's push release) or Els (Cotton's crossover release), but they slap-hinge it (or, as you TGMers call it - flip), bent left wrist in urge to hit the ball in the air and chicken-winging. This is a natural way to release the club that does not mean the best. All other things (as proper pivot, flat left wrist, swivel, etc.) are educated things. And, IMHO, you do not educate your hands - you educate your subconsciousness to not interefere with a technically proper way to hit the ball since the intuitive way is not good for many objective reasons (as e.g. not believing in loft of the club or not believing in body turn or not believing in proper CoG shift, etc.) Now, imagine that everyone except Hogan did not educate their subconsciousness to not interfere with such a "strange" subject as opening/closing clubface concept is. And that is why only post-accident Hogan (not counting autistic Moe Norman) owned his swing and made it repeatable and consistent much more than everyone else did or does it. Try to look at the big picture - the best thing you can do in a golf swing is to minimize timing issues. Answer yourself what should a man equipped with main body and four distal parts (legs and arns) do in this matter. Hogan apparently succeded in minimizing timing issues in his swing - this was his key to success and I am trying to discover it by making my own mistakes and errors. The closing/squaring clubface issue is, IMHO, one of the most important, since the ball react to the contact with the clubface and what really matters is what angle the clubface is coming from, what angle does it have at contact, and at separation. Until now, nobody succeded in finding Hogan's secret(s) - and that is why there are still no golfer who can be in Hogan's league as regards accuracy, consistency and repeatability of shots. Unfortunately, Mr.Kelley (as well as other instructors, swing analysers and coaches) also apparently failed since there are no TGM students who may be compared to Hogan in this sense. Therefore, since Hogan took the majority of what he discovered to the grave, all avid Hogan fans should try to keep further in the dirt - and this is the difference between us, since you do not want to "dig in the dirt yourself" but prefer to concentrate on what is already written. What I see is that Hogan's clubface is square to the arc for a longer time than all other players I had the pleasure to analyze. It's a fact for me. Moreover, the correlation between a square-to-the-arc clubface in the whole impact zone and minimizing timing issues is so convincing, that is hard to believe it can be a better way...if you know a better way - share your thoughts and I'd be the first to follow your advices immediately. Now, I am trying all the time to learn how did he do this in the way it was almost automatic for him. That's why I am on serious golf fora, like here at Lynn's site. And, finally, this is why I am not rejecting any ideas, even those that appear to be very goofy at first sight. |
Dariusz
Because I know that you are a serious student of the golf swing, I would recommend that you stick-around, and participate, in this golf forum. You could learn a totally different way to think of the golf swing. You must get HK's TGM book and read it multiple times, and you must read all of Lynn Blake's archived posts. If you do, I suspect that you will never again state-: "And, IMHO, you do not educate your hands - you educate your subconsciousness to not interfere with a technically proper way to hit the ball." HK's "educated hands" concept is fundamental to learning the "technically proper way to hit the ball." Hitting a golf ball, like driving a car, is not an intuitive skill. It is an acquired skill that only becomes intuitive when one clearly understands how do it subconsciously. However, the golf swing must first be consciously learned, then rehearsed at a slow speed, eventually at faster speeds, while paying attention-attention-attention to the details. Eventually, with proper learning and the requisite amount of "correct" practice, it can become subconsciously efficient. If you read HK's book, then you will likely never have the need to again use Henry Cotton's terms "crossover release" and push release". HK offers a much better swing vocabulary that is more precise and more biomechanically coherent. There is an endless interest among many golfers in discovering Hogan's undiscovered "secrets". I have read a fair number of articles and books that have supposedly discovered/exposed a hidden Hogan "secret". I have never found ONE of those "secrets" to be convincingly true. I think that the great secret about Hogan's swing is divulged (within the limitations of Hogan's theoretical knowledge) by Hogan himself in his "Five lessons" book, and made much more understandable when viewed through the prism of HK's theories on golf physics/geometry/mechanics. Finally, you wrote-: "Moreover, the correlation between a square-to-the-arc clubface in the whole impact zone and minimizing timing issues is so convincing, that is hard to believe it can be a better way...if you know a better way - share your thoughts and I'd be the first to follow your advices immediately." Once you study TGM and understand that the clubhead never travels in a straight line, and that the clubface only needs to be square at the moment of ball-clubface separation (if you want to hit the ball straight), then you can start to learn how to "educate the hands" and the supporting body pivot action how best to produce a consistently reliable ball flight pattern. A good place to start learning about the TGM learning curriculum is in Lynn Blake's free video gallery - view the entire Colin Neeman and Jeff Hull series of video lessons. Jeff. |
Jeff, I am a bit disappointed with you and you lecturing tone of your last post. Is 2 months a long enough term for you to forgot how to speak with standard non-TGM language ? Is it long enough for you to change subjects the way you do and just only lecture others to study the Book ?
Do you think that I am not aware of the fact that clubhead does not travel in a straight line or that a golf swing must be conscioussly learned ? You also said you have never found any "secrets" of Hogan to be convincingly true - how can you say this if you neglect digging in the dirt yourself ? how can you say that the Yellow Book is the best way to understand what principles Hogan used to be the best ballstriker in history of the game since, as I told you, noone of TGM students could ever duplicate or be close to Hogan's overhuman accuracy and consistency ? I have been studying many theories for months and years and, frankly, noone can produce a Hogan-league ballstriker. Why ? Because noone is able until now to fully grasp and understand the whole concept how to make the swing motion almost automatic despite all well-known human body flaws. I am sure I will study The Book somewhen just for my own pleasure of being a more educated swing theorist in the future. This may be the best golf book ever written, I do not neglect this. However, as a post-accident Hogan swing analyst I need much bigger biokinetic picture than concentrating on details. I am saying this not to underrate Mr.Kelley's work - au contre, I am here to know a pure TGM version on Hogan's motion - something like Yoda said in the TGM language which I do not understand and still await his version for non-TGMers in order to check how close they are to The Secret. Lastly, do not underestimate Hogan and his theoretical knowledge - IMHO, he was a much smarter guy than many of us think and if he only wanted to reveal all what he knew in another never-written book - this would be the best golf book ever written BY FAR. Cheers |
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I have not read the book for a while but i'm sure this was a drill for beginners so i don't see how it applies to to the debate |
[quote=Dariusz J.;53691]Jeff, I am a bit disappointed with you and you lecturing tone of your last post. Is 2 months a long enough term for you to forgot how to speak with standard non-TGM language ? Is it long enough for you to change subjects the way you do and just only lecture others to study the Book ?
Dariusz You should listen to Jeff he knows everything about the golfswing and much more than a lot of respected authorities on the golf swing regardless that he can't play. Take a look and watch the great man in action on youtube :laughing9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku1L4EieJ5M |
Pistol
Your participation if anything is consistent...positions without much substance which generally gravitate to personal attacks. Can you please point us to your knowledge base so we can better appreciate your journey. :) |
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But it is a drill that teaches a correct motion, on-plane...no throw away...good enough for anyone IMO. |
Dariusz
You offer two arguments that are particularly weak, and these arguments come up all the time when people comment on Hogan's swing. You wrote-: "You also said you have never found any "secrets" of Hogan to be convincingly true - how can you say this if you neglect digging in the dirt yourself ? how can you say that the Yellow Book is the best way to understand what principles Hogan used to be the best ballstriker in history of the game since, as I told you, noone of TGM students could ever duplicate or be close to Hogan's overhuman accuracy and consistency ?" This "digging in the dirt" argument is woefuly weak because you have no idea how much time I spend "digging in the dirt" in an attempt to understand the golf swing. By the way, despite spending endless hours "digging in the dirt", I can never personally hope to become a good golfer because I have too many physical handicaps/limitations. Hogan, although an extraordinary talented golfer, was also a mortal golfer who based his swing on many golf fundamentals/principles. Those same principles are present in many other golfers' swings. They can be studied and understood by a person like HK. However, even a perfect understanding of golf swing fundamentals cannot create an "expert" golfer, like Hogan. It requires, in addition, an inherent "gift" for executing the golf swing. The same fact applies to other sports. Roger Federer may be the greatest tennis player that has ever played the game of tennis, but that doesn't mean that one cannot study and understand the tennis principles/fundamentals that form the underlying framework of his tennis skills. I have read an endless number of golf instructional books, but none of them equals the TGM book with regards to the critically important criterion of having at its "core" a fundamentally sound scientific approach. Jeff. |
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