That's what defines the Plane. Hands and Clubhead.

I know.

So ideally at impact you have the whole club, the hands and the right forearm on plane. The whole left arm and the right upper arm is above plane. That is a lot of moving mass above the swing plane right there. This moving mass isn't counter balanced with mass sitting below the swing plane. Cause there aint nothing there.


In other words; the primary lever assembly isn't properly balanced for an on plane motion powered by an on-plane linear force. If you thrust on-plane the lever assembly will be moved off plane. And the clubface will be rotated open. So you have to manipulate the direction of your linear thrust and add a little anti clock wise torque to keep the cluface under control to make the stroke look pretty and and well behaved through impact. But you would really fighting against a mass distribution that is unbalanced.

But I don't think good golfers do that. I think they swing and thrust on planes we don't see. Cause we really haven't figured out what planes we should be looking at when we study the physics involved.

Some good golfers are so close to what is commonly held as ideal planar motion that we take it as a confirmation of a very good stroke and a very good theory. At the same time there are equally consistent players who are doing all kinds of plane shifting and plane bending that are equally effective. Then we tell each other that we are looking at compensation and that they get good results not because of but in spite of.

Well, "if" TGM is, in the main, power package alignments? That is no small thing you just said!!

The Bear

BerntR Didnt realize we'd be sneaking some more "disagrees" in before the new year....cool. It aint over till its over.

I love your thinking mans approach, keep em coming. Im being perfectly serious here. You make me think .........which is often kinda pathetic but hey Im trying.

Imbalanced ..... ya, that changes everything. So we've got the circular orbit , which seeks out a straight line given enough force (like a rock on a string) but we need to direct this straight line not through the ball in some manner (arc or angle of approach visual equivalent given parallax) but somewhere else? This somewhere else must be different for each club , for each swingweight for each ball position ..... how do we locate this moveable feast of somewhere elses?

That would make golf not difficult but impossible wouldnt it? Like looking at the ball through prism glasses? Which you can get when hitting out of water if you know what I mean.

The Aiming Point can move ...hmmm We direct the force at it and its not where the ball is ........necessarily. Hmmm On the same Delivery Line as the ball I believe to make up for the rate at which different club switch ends ..

Are you talking about different places located on the Delivery Line , clubhead path or outside or inside of it? Something in total conflict with Homer's directing the orbit or its straight line, plane line through the ball? Which would move the plane to this new somewhere else not through the ball.

Your reverse torque sounds like vertical to me......maybe steering even. Not being insulting here every body fights it. Put me on a mat for five minutes and Im doing it. Do you fight pulls but tend to miss both ways? Sounds like a compensational "reverse torque" to me if your answer is yes. Maybe I dont know what "reverse toque" means? Ah, in fact I know I dont know what it means.....

The Sweetspot Rules
 

Nor is a hammer "properly balanced". But, if you hurl one end-over-end, it must rotate around its longitudinal center of gravity, i.e., its sweetspot. Not symmetrically like a Chinese throwing star, but in a funky sort of head-over-heels way.

And so it is with the "On Plane Motion" of the Golf Stroke. The Clubshaft and Left Arm must rotate about the Sweetspot. Unless you prevent that from happening (which most golfers do). We have a name for that . . .

Steering.

The First Snare (3-F-7-A).

The "On Plane Linear Force" (Centrifugal or Muscular Thrust via the Right Forearm) is applied "at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity" (1-L-11). The Force (Thrust) is indifferent to the configuration of the Primary Lever (In-Line or Out-of-Line given the Grip and the #3 Accumulator Angle). Except, of course, as that configuration ultimately determines the location of the Sweetspot.

:cool:

I do believe BerntR is talking about the primary lever. The mass of the left arm is above plane through impact so pushing on the left hand would be like a "swing" (childs playground swing) if the forve is on plane of the shaft- 90 deg to the plane of the primary lever assembly. For now I will not even attempt that exercise.

The Bear

Babes In the Wood
 

I hear you, Hungry Bear, and I understand.

Guys, I know that, for newbies, my ideas (as presented and explained in literally thousands of posts) may sound so 'out there' and 'technical'. But, they are -- as precisely as words can convey -- exactly what must happen. And, as a guide for those studying The Golfing Machine, I usually reference the key points.

Trust me, I can "dumb it down". In fact, I make a living "dumbing it down", but only within the context of a student's own athletic motion and his understanding of exactly what must be done. However, for most readers of this site, whose Motion I can't possibly know, I cannot differentiate individually. Since I cannot, I do not. That relegates you to your own understanding as to where you comply with geometric principle and where you do not.

But, mano a mano, and in less than a minute on simple questions such as the above, I show you The Truth, and you say . . . .

Oh Yeah!

I see it.

I get it.

And then you'll stripe a host of shots right up the sprinkler heads.

That is when I know we have reached our own understanding.

:golfcart2:

I like your confidence Yoda,

And I believe you. But even you need some discussion to validate a theory based on empirical results ;-)

If you ease on the dumbing down for a minute: What are the causes of the different post-impact alignments we see in VJ and Hogan? I think I understand VJ's move pretty well. But less so with Hogan.

How does Hogan manage to hold his wedges so well and so far past impact?

Common Ground
 

I've seen swing sequences of both Ben and V.J. with markedly different impact alignments . . . in their own swings!

Please post a specific photo comparison together with your own observations and conclusions. I'll then add my own. Everybody else feel free to join the fun!

:salut:

Has anyone considered "Plane Line Tracing"? ______________________________________________

Although there may be multiple causes for Off Plane Post Impact Shaft Syndrome (O-PPISS) :) , maybe the solution, if one finds it necessary, is going back to the basic fundamentals.

I'm for sure cool with tracing . . . BUT . . . we can't forget 1-L-5 . . . That is what I see Hogan doing so well . . . doesn't deviate from the line nor does he deviate from the selected plane angle (elbow plane in his case). He lays the shaft on the plane as well as anybody who's ever laced 'em up.

Has a lot to do with right shoulder geometry and trajectory too . . hip and knee action . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlzCoxiTdg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KI9XsiiA-Q

I guess I had it coming:laughing9

I need a good down the line or up the line Hogan photo sequence or film to do this. One where I can see hand path and clubhead path on a number of position from end to end. I have spent about two hours browsing for Hogan sequences but I can't find something that is good enough for this purpose. If anyone has something that can be used please let me know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMN...ayer_embedded#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg&NR=1

Could u use that hogan swing path without the tremendous lag he generates?

Average guy would turn the sod over it trying that move, wouldn't they?

you would not want to actively uncock and roll.

Thank you Daryl,

The first film there is much better than I could find.

Let me throw in this quote for consideration....

Its from the book
The Pro: Lessons from My Father About Golf and Life
by Claude Harmon (Author), Joseph Buttler (Narrator)
---------------------------------

Once when practicing with Ben Hogan Claude Snr. asked Ben about swing plane. Mr. Hogan pointed his thumb down the range at the other players and said;
"They keep trying to get their hands high, more upright, and I'm trying to get flatter all the time. As I get flat when I move into the ball with my left side, it drops me inside even flatter and I come from the inside every time without ever coming over the ball. The flatter I get the fatter my wallet gets."

Hence the pane of glass . . . . . .

Nice, I felt like an idiot the other day.
 

Doing the Gregg Mchatton had my club feeling like it was my belt. The only way that swing works is by leaving the club face wide open and pulling the handle straight left!

Wait a minute....:smiley2304: :cheers:

Off to the range!


ICT

inner my boy, you are gaining on it.

sounds interesting - how did it go on the range ?

So weird!
 

By keeping my club face open and Pivoting/Pulling straight left, my right shoulder seemed like it was driving my hands to the ball, but I could not make my shoulder just do it. Anyway, I pushed a lot of balls 5-10 yards right of the targets on the screen, usually at the targets or over them! :golfcart:

Last night, I was consistently 10-15 yards short of the video targets. Tonight, I was even with them or a little past. It felt like I was hitting the ball with more of of my body. My PW went to 62 mph according to the radar and was about 125-128 yards.

I really realized that I try to drive my hands a lot and am disconnected. The "left" down stroke feels a lot more like an oblique angle, a lot flatter and my right shoulder felt like it was really driving the hands to the ball-like an axe-flat more than steep.

Very interesting.

ICT

Back to post one . The yellow line attached to the right shoulder. It points more out in startdown then more down later on........ Is that significant or am I off topic again.

Bucket Im truly interested in "where you coming from" so lay it on the line, baby.
No harm no fowl......no chicken wing, no sheep, no whatever. Im in.

That last photo sure looks like he's going to .........CP, or swing left or .........Angled hinge on the elbow plane, whatever. Im throwing around terms that I really dont understand here. ..........cept for the last bit maybe.

Here's what I consider to be Launching Pad..........like i said earlier but this is just me.......right shoulder kinda hangs back. Although 4B it would go through more.

You'd tend to think Arnie was 4B given all the effort etc but upon looking at this sequence? I dunno . Look at how little his right shoulder moves from frame 8 to Both Arms Straight, frame 10. Launching pad or what? So was his shoulder move in Startdown Motion or Work?

Did he load the Knuckle ?......no way especially given his "literally flat , geometrically arched" left Hand at Top. First joint index finger for sure Id say. But......

Maybe Yoda, who is a huge Arnie aficionado would have a more learned opinion. Actually I know he would.

This man was a King.

When I was playing my best this summer, it felt like my initial move to the ball was a pulling action to get my hips clear and hands positioned to then PUSH through impact.

I then proceeded to fight this from the end of summer on, thinking that was the path to becoming a "switter." I think, for me, this may be the right feeling to keep my hands from going OTT.

I'll be working on getting the feeling from the Alignment DVD exercises. I'm especially concentrating on that initial hip slide and stretch while the hands remain behind. THAT feeling will be the one I suspect that will let me know long before the swing finishes if the results are going to be good! No stretch feeling, probably not going to be an optimal swing. Good stretch, sequencing likely to be good with hands in a position to drive down AND out.

Motion Versus Work
 

Thanks for this, O.B.

In the Start Down, the Right Shoulder Acceleration is actuated by the Hip Turn. This Hip Turn -- with its Action -- is more than mere Motion. In fact, it does the work that throws the Right Shoulder (and with it, the entire Power Package) into Release.

Motion permits but causes nothing.

Work actuates and causes everything.

Arnie definitely pulled the Club from the Top.

Then, from Release, he drove it through Impact and Follow-Through.


:salut:

"pulled then drove" Swingers startdown Drag, then Drive.


So we're looking at 4B with Arnie there is that right? Shoulder Work?

Perhaps we're discussing the quick flip of the hips versus the slow startdown? So when I see a rather static right shoulder positon from Release to Both Arms Straight am I wrongly assuming Shoulder motion from Top to Release , 3B ?


So , even for Drag then Drive 4B , there can still be a rather static "launching pad" right shoulder? Is that right?

Or maybe the Right Shoulder is rather, somewhat static from Release to Both ARm straight for swingers and hitter alike .....somewhat. This is something Ive been looking at. Homer did say after all, that the swinging or hitting the right arm is always driving.......

Sure . . . to you first point . . . pointing more out at startdown . . . could just be the way I drew the lines. Not too precise. I was just trying to illustrate the tip of the right shoulder working on top of the left arm . . .

However . . you are correct it does in fact point more "out". Hogan tended to "lay the shaft down" at start down. So it's "super flat and off plane-ish"





Then he steepens it out . . .

There are some pretty distinct similarities in the shoulder motions . . . but the hips do considerably different things LATE . .

Have a look . . .










Right shoulder stays pretty high and works out.

Compare the hip motion . . .

Have a look at this . . . Palmer turned his shoulders as steep as anybody ever . . . this is a DRIVER . . .









I think you'll find that Palmer actually exits LOWER than Hogan . . . due to the fact that he doesn't continue to release his hips forward and up . . . which would raise the shaft up more . . . staying bent over is going to make the club exit lower . . . but the club ain't working out away from him.

Zone 1

Hogan hand path
 

I tried to capture the butt end of the club on each frame. Some of the frames are interpolated blurs and useless, so the precision is probably so-so. However I am confident that the overall trend representative.

The hand path basically shows that Hogan "swings left" from end to end - whith his hands.

I was also planning to capture the clubhead path but that is impossible from the videos I have excamined.

The ball goes stright down the middle of the frame, it looks like a very straight shot that dies to the right. You can see the swing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMN...ayer_embedded#

In case anyone wonders about the thumbnail; is still a mystery to me how to upload photos here at LBG.

In case anyone wonders about the thumbnail; It is still a mystery to me how to upload photos here at LBG.

Earlier in the down swing.



If I was a bit better equipped with editing tools I would have drawn an arrow from Hogans right shoulder down to his right hand.

During a major part of the down stroke Hogan's right shoulder is very close to being on the same plane as the hand path. Thus, he can thrust his hands through the path (or keep them there) by drive loading or extencior action.

TGM emphasise the right threeceps as THE muscle that operates the drive loading or extencior action. Personally I believe that there is a litte more involved, but I don't think the geometrical relationship betwen Hogan's left hand and shoulder is a coincidence. A straight push will help him hold the hand path.

As we saw in the picture in my post above, Hogan's shoulder path crosses over to the outside of the hand path towards and past impact. It's a physical fact that when club picks up speed it will impose a centrifugal force on the hands that will tend to push the hands outside their path. This is very evident in Ricky Fowler's low point position, but not so with Hogan. He holds the form exceptionally well through impact. When his right shoulder gets outside the hand path, his pushing with the right tricep will to a certain extent oppose the tendency of clubhead inertia to pull the hands outside the plane - and still drive the hands down their path.

Hogan's hand path is outside-in past impact in spite of CF trying to throw the hands out. THis means that Hogan's application of force around impact and past impace is even more outside-in than the hand path shows.

Let the record show that Daryl added a cigarette and aunt antenna to Mr Hogan's head in that final frame there.........

Daryl, you wanna stay late after class again???? Hand me that sling shot too there fella .... and do you have any caps that dont have a propeller on the top?

I think part of the difference between Hogan and Fowler is best understood in face on view.

I was going to borrow a couple face on images that wer posted earlier. But where have they gone bucket?

Anyway,

As Daryl clearly shows, Hogan and Arnold keeps zone 1 going while Fowler blasts his hands past the pivot. Application of Accumulator#4 makes a difference the hand path and also to what you can do with the pivot post impact.

Right Shoulder Motion , Elbow Plane Hitter.......
 

In regard to Right Shoulder Motion the more I look at good golfers the more I see a shared alignment ......namely the Right Shoulder and the Hands on the same Inclined Plane in Startdown. Despite where the Hands and Right Shoulder were respectively at Top.

For some it doesnt last very long as they drop their Hands down to a lower plane , seemingly blowing right through this alignment, for others especially those who started with this alignment at Top they can ride it for a while until their Right Shoulder falls behind and goes its own direction somewhat......above Plane post Release.

Im talking TSP here of course. Look at how high Palmers right shoulder is at Top, as Bucket pointed out. Wow, thats beyond Rotated isnt it? Which is undefined perhaps in TGM. And still it would seem he gets his Right Shoulder and Hands on the same Inclined Plane in Startdown. Or does he even locate a super high super weird TSP at Top?

See 10-13-C for a procedure where Rotated can locate "a" TSP Angle at Top followed with a move of the Right Shoulder On Plane in Stardown. Thereby taking the Hands down that same plane , the "mechanical advantage" of the TSP range of angles. The Pivot via the Right Shoulder taking the power package down in Startdown.

Or ......Im seeing things that arent there. Thats the other possibility. But I see it everywhere now, Jack, Arnie , Ben......
And of special note ....The Left ARm is not on this same Plane , just the Right Shoulder , #3pp , Sweetspot and golf ball. And its still Hands to Pivot , in that though the Right Shoulder is dragging the Hands down.......the Hands are directing, seeking out the Plane Line. It is the Hands that complete this journey while the Right Shoulder falls off directionally. I know this doesnt square with the feeling you get when Angled Hinging on the Elbow Plane but ...... The Hands do overtake the Pivot its just a matter of when. I sometimes for some shots, where I delay the overtaking , have a feeling for keeping the hanky tucked under my left side but ....thats just one type of shot.. for me anyways.

gone??? That sucks? Look at how closed Fowler's shoulders are comparatively.

Since we're talking Hogan startdown, elbow plane etc
 

Homer at one point discussed the laid off look some really fine golfers get at Top. Well I guess its not really at Top but in the very first stages of Startdown. A little wag of the club to the left. I dont think Homer mentioned Hogan in particular but he tossed around the idea that it was an early adoption of the Elbow Plane alignments .... briefly off plane in appearance but soon to look on plane once the shift to the elbow plane is complete.

The thing about this photo that makes it really look off is his footline which shouldnt be assumed to be an indicator of where the Plane Line is. Foot line and Plane Line are not one and the same. Another possibility is a fade shot perhaps. Not saying Hogan didnt get laid off , he did sometimes...

Food for thought. You wouldnt want to lay it off if like this if you're not a shifter downer, elbow planer . Thatd be just plane wrong.

Me I got a feeling his Right Elbow is tucking in Pitch style and wagging the club ....which is an early adoption of an elbow plane alignments....

nice smoke . . . .

3 different pivots . . . Hogan the most forward with the hips and shoulders open . . . . Palmer maintains his waist bend . . . Fowler tilts back some right shoulder works underneathish.