Not an issue, but rather THE issue!
 

Daly has never been mistaken for someone worthy of emulation! Unless of course your thing is morbidly obese (pre-surgery), alcoholic, mulletted knuckle-dragging neanderthal golfing savants! Talent without character is a milestone around your neck. I guess I lost my way in the discussion. I agree that there was a lot of "massaging" going on as far as Tiger's public personae.Anyone taken by surprise is naive i.e. that the public and private do not match up. However, if you are not surprised by the disparity between the two then you are jaded at best! I have already stated that Tiger had demonstrated to me that he had embraced his larger than lifeness by small incidents of poor self-control (profanity and compulsive gambling...something yet to make headlines). Robert Redford wisely said that success is something you spar with, but never embrace.The biggest sucker in the media-hype that surrounds Tiger is...Tiger. I think the strongest indictment may be directed towards those that think that the only important thing about Tiger is his talent, or his march into the history books, not his character. Madonna (the moderately talented Louise Veronica Ciccone) is famous, Mother Theresa is GREAT. Fame is fickle and fleeting, but greatness is sublime. It is a mistake to fragment people in this manner. It suggests a gross misunderstanding of humanity. Talent merely provides the context for the development of their character.A means to an end, never an end in itself. I always thought that is what Earl Woods meant with regards to Tiger. You have talent...you are your character. For the purpose of this discussion I do not care if you are a Kantian ethicist, or an evangelical Christian...character counts.It is not a thing, it is the thing. As Bucket has suggested the grotesqueness of his transgressions is telling, and does not automatically fall under a general category of misdeeds. Morality is always the issue. In my rant I am suggesting that I care more for Tiger's personal struggle than his public future. The consequences of his actions is not what puts him in jeopardy, but rather the source of those actions. Great people build altars (their talent is tethered to the sacred trust that comes with it)...famous people pitch tents (they eventually believe that there talent is self-originating and will therefore deny its primary purpose of it in the first place)

There may be dirt on the likes of Jack Nicklaus that has not come to light. But I am almost sure that he did not conduct himself like certain forum members would in a goat paddock. So I will tend to think that Jack Nicklaus did what he did as a golfer while doing what needs to be done as a husband and father. Tiger will never challenge JWN in my mind ever again. If this is a minority opinion then I will take that as affirmation.

There is no doubt that the hoochies are complicit. But like marriage it is never a 50/50 proposition. It is an "all in" kinda thing.

I do believe that Tiger can make a character comeback, lest you think me to be a pharisee. But it is on that basis alone that he will make a real comeback. I wish him well.

The goat was cuter than that Perkins chick though :BangHead:

Post of the year . . . maybe of all time.

Read the text messages between him and Jamie Grubb (was there ever a more appropriare name?) today and it seems he wasn't just doing one night stands. He was text flirting right through his marriage.

Makes it even worse in my opinion.

Living in the UK I'm not really able to make this comparison so I'll let you yanks tell me if it is similar but would Tiger going on to break Jack's record now be considered sullied in the same way as Bonds breaking Ruth's home run record is?

Bonds record is tainted because he (allegedly) used performance enhancing drugs to make it happen. I seriously doubt anybody will credit Tiger's on-course achievements to his off-course 'transgressions'; if anything I would think all that sneaking around and apparent late nights would have hurt his game.

Nobody I know thinks less of Kobe's, Jordan's or Wilt Chamberlain's body of work on the basketball court because of their promiscuity off of it. Tiger being friends with guys like Kobe and Jordan all seems pretty fitting now, eh?

He had multiple year long flings with woman, he obviously had no regard for his wife...I don't know how she could stay with him.

Unless it comes out that Tiger cheated on the course this has nothing to do with his golf....now if it affects his golf that will be another story.

Agreed but there is some smoke coming from a distant fire that points towards a possible WADA transgression. I hope he wasnt aloof or stupid enough to take the banned meds.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/enter...402/story.html

The Tale of Two Tigers
 

My righteous indignation is strangely not assuaged by the knowledge that Tiger only cheats off the course!

Compare with David Duval, who wants to play like he used to so his wife and kids can see how good he once was. I know who I am rooting for. That is character.

Nice point . . . Duval had an interesting take on this . . . Heard it on the radio . . . this was prior to all the skanks piling up. But something basically saying that he was gonna get ambushed by the press . . . whatever that means. Love Duval though.

Maybe, Okie. I like what your saying but lets not get ahead of ourselves. There is a lot of speculation and innuendo coming from all the wrong sources. Lets wait before we pass judgement in the court of public opinion.

Its interesting that that story isnt "news" in the States. I bet Tiger, Nike and the Tour office are following that one pretty closely though. We now know that he has had a blood spinning procedure performed by a Doctor who stands accused of importing and prescribing drugs which are contrary to WADA. I know, like who hasnt got a Doc like that? It looks bad for sure but is proof of squat.

BUT, the insinuation of a WADA transgression and therefor some damage to his golf rep is already there for the taking. Perhaps TMZ doesnt have the stomach for this quite yet. If it isnt a nightmare for Tiger already it could become one quickly. I hope it wont happen.

This entire affair is speculation isnt it? Which one of those sweet little gals looks like she could speak an untruth? Elin has moved out, no she hasnt she's at the hospital with her mom. There is a lot of bs around this whole thing. Lets not be too quick to judge him, despite his rudeness in your presence which you are right to adwhore. Thats a typo. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law anyways. ( Man, it does look pretty damning though doesnt it.)

I just want to see him back playing and some of us cheering. Maybe Ill be cheering, I hope so, TBD.

What do you say we all go see Ivictus (sp?) and let this thing settle for a bit? Morgan Freeman's accent?

Anyways
Pleasure
Ob

Shame on me....maybe!
 

Sorry O.B. I was not referring to the allegation of improper drug use. I think his anemic apology of "transgressions" suggest that the core events of the scandal are true. My remarks are based on the information that there has been multiple infidelities, over a protracted period, with unsavory types. If it all turns out to be a blood-letting conspiracy perpetrated by the toothless brigade :drool: of the KKK in order to dethrone a multi-ethnic icon then I will eat humble-pie ala shame :blackeye:

No need to apologize. I see it both ways. I am conflicted on this one but more and more wary of the sources we are relying on here. Although Naughty America Live is normally a credible source of news on most days.

I am with you on the "where there's smoke...." thing, for sure. Seems like it.

The KKK? Do they have any little blond Swedish women running around in IKEA linens?

There is serious money and market inroads being made on this thing by all the wrong forms of media to my mind. That might be the real story here. The most damning for us anyways. Lets be careful lest we end up like the .........Brits!!!!!!! Hey those guys are kind of quiet on this. Like too quiet. Where the heck is Golfbulldog and those guys anyways. Must have a really good page 2 girl today in News of the World or something.

Tiger is a mama's boy. Has anyone read some of his text messages. It's embarrassing dribble.

On the Golf course, he's the greatest. Off the course, immature and insecure sexual deviant.

I don't think that he's involved with performance enhancement drugs or related matter. His work out regiment would kill most of us (4 hours per day strength and cardio and sex three times per night).

PGA Tour Player calls Tiger the "B - Word" Ben Crane and... Ha ben recanted by the media now saying they talked with 2 guys that said they were Ben Crane and Charles Warren.

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/de...rn=golf,207961

Sorry Burley. I have now lost ALL respect for Mr. Crane. This is between Tiger and Elin now.

Kevin

I'm with ya! That was uncalled for by both him and Charles Warren but, I guess everyone has a right to there opinion. Wounder which other PGA Tour players will speak out against Tiger now?

not the smart ones

Kev, I love ya man but Crane did not call Woods a bastard. He said what the rest of us are thinking. Crane, who would prefer 7 hour rounds isn't anyone's firm favourite anyway (especially not Rory Sabbatini!)

If you are a PGA pro (which I'm pretty sure you are), are your comments regarding Tiger and his conduct any different?

GPStyles,

I have nothing but respect for you as well, and do NOT want to ruin any friendships with anyone over something like this disaster that is out of control.

I don't care to discuss religion or politics among friends, nobody wins.

I just feel this is between Tiger and his wife now. It is a very sad situation. Sad for us, sad for golf, sad for Mr. Woods and his family. Please don't take any comments I have made as a personal affront.

Kevin

No mate, no affront taken.

Between Tiger and Elin is exactly what the cheating rat bag wants. Truth is that if she stays with him (for any other reason than for their kids) she will drop as far in my estimation as he has.

I don't think that its only between Tiger and Elin. It's between Tiger, Elin, their attorney's, Tigers PR people, his sponsors and all and any of his ex-girlfriends wanting money or publicity and anyone else with some story to tell or trade for money. When that's done, then Tiger is free to tell his side of the story in any way he chooses. Then we'll be expected to swallow all the koolaid and become happy and supportive fans.

Tigers income machine is based on his ability to bring his fans to his sponsors, not the other way around. We are the product. We, are what the sponsors are paying for.

Tiger made one hundred million last year. Ninety three million from sponsors.

I think Ben Crane is pretty high quality . . . with the way he handled the Sabo mess . . .

May want to have a look at this .. . .
http://www.cgfonline.org/about/index.htm

Crane hosts 30 college golfers every year at his place I think . . .

Okie here is an example of what I think we both would agree is a very high journalistic standard.

From the good folks at the South African Broadcasting Corporation 2.

Pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjbQUp9SR8

"UPDATE"

Statements by Ben Crane's and Charles Warren's (Agents) are being questioned as false media or imposter's!


http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/de...rn=golf,207961

It turns out that was just more tabloid reporting by the media. Mr. Crane didn't make those comments. I regret making that post. Apologies.

Kevin

Stories that are publised by the press always seem to be pretty far from the truth. Some of it is flat out wrong. A lot of the parts that has some truth in it is put in the wrong contest and basically misinterpreted.

I have been interviewed by journalists a couple of times and it can be quite frustrating and even embarrasing to read what they present as "your" version of a topic. And to this day I have never met anyone with first hand knowledge of events that hits the news who say that media got it right. The journalists and reporters are basically looking for an excuse to present a good story rather than a truth story. When they have their hypothetical intrigue ready they dig, selects and twist facts, and disregard conflicting information to build their case. And they tend to stick to their initial story no matter what the facts says. That's just the nature of the beast.

Each single story regarding the Tiger scandal should be taken in with a large grain of salt. And even though the dirt digging brings more undisputable facts to the table, the interpretation of the facts and the selection of which facts to present will probably remain twisted as long as this is big news. Just my 5 cents.

The total coverage of this scandal is likely to give us a better idea about what has really been going on, how and why. And I have to admit; Some of the evidences looks pretty solid and it doesn't look pretty even if you read between the lines.

Right now I find it highly unlikely that Tiger has invented this sort of behavior himself. And it's partly thanks to some of the posts in this thread. Which I think is quite sober and trusthworthy overall. A lot of it must be grounded in the people, the culture, the values that have surrounded him since he was a kid, destined to become a star. I think cynism is a proper word for it. This doesn't make Tiger a better person of course. But it makes what has happened more understandable. And perhaps more sad too.

If I had a son that was a really good golfer I am not sure if I would encoraged him to aim for a playing pro carreer right now. It may not be a good way of living even though the golf is great and the money is good and the girls are pretty. But I wouldn't encorage my kids to climb the Mount Everest either. Base camp is probably OK I guess, but it becomes increasingly dangerous as you get close to the top. Above 8000 metres a human life seems to be less worth than in a war zone. Everyone's ambitions of getting to the top pushes empathy way down the value ladder. And everybody involved seem to be OK with that. Life at the top is highly overrated and Tiger has been at the top for a long time. I don't think he has chosen his own destiny and I feel sorry for him.

Nice, just say your a player on the tour to some mag that would not know the difference and write anything....man I feel for Crane, a really quality individual who has been hammered over slow play, is now going to be stained cause of this.

Wait a minute, we're approaching noon EST and skank free so far today.............Headlines:

"is Tiger stalling in his quest for 18? "

"What's wrong with Tiger?"

"Is Tiger Slumping?"

"Tiger Slump Deepens"

Below the Belt
 

Burley,

I find no rationale for your provacative post. No where in your linked article (or in links imbedded within that article) did I find the "B" word. Further, Ben Crane and Charles Warren have both catagorically denied making the attributed remarks.

This situation is tough enough as it is and needs no inflamatory posts from here.

I don't think he'll have a problem getting to 18...

He will get to eighteen by the end of next week.

They Changed the link then, Yoda! That was the first artical that the media magazine quoted them as saying then, they Devil Ball came back with another artical saying that Ben Crane came forwarda and said he never spoke to this magazine. I posted the second link that was the recant from both players agents saying " Neither one has ever spoke to this magazine".

I saw the original too Blake. Not your fault. We need to learn not to get sucked in by "tabloid" journalism. I won't speak for you my friend, but I am way too gullible!

Kevin

Thanks gfan.

My point , obtuse though it was, is that most of the story, things we take as truths originate from the tabloid press or blogs and could be, indeed probably is, a fine manure like mix of truths and lies. Designed to confuse our normal wariness of "news" from those sources.

Im thinking , hoping he'll hit 18.......... majors that is. Just not sure whether Ill be cheering or jeering.

Does anyone know? If the press confirms 12 tiger girlfriends, do ya think someone will print and sell 2010 calendars of them?

Jenny Sanford, wife of the South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford who found his "soul Mate" in South America, has announced her Divorce Filing today. Following repeated attempts at reconciliation, sadly, it's over.

My respect for South Carolina women and Jenny Sanford in particular just doubled. My respect for South Carolina Women was always very high, especially since one of them cares for "12 pc. Bucket". It just proves their strength of character.

Jenny Sanford has self-respect and the courage to stand by her convictions.

Take a Stand
 

http://web.tigerwoods.com/news/artic...17801012/news/

Tiger Woods taking hiatus from golf
By Tiger Woods


I respect your decision Tiger. I wish you and your family the best.