I'm doing a disservice.....you're the one with Tom Tomasello demonstrating it on video in the gallery of this site.

Lynn....you need to watch the videos of Tommy....eventhough he is throwing/karate chopping from the top the clubhead is not going into it's release orbit. I believe that's why we have seen a change in the release component in the 6th to 7th edition....where the change went from 10-24-B to 10-24-E (even on your first phone call to Homer....Homer told Tommy to concentrate on Longitudinal acceleration...it's lengthwise acceleration). It's an automatic release. Watch letter series #2 video..you can't be a good student if you don't watch the instruction!!!:eyes:

DG

Yoda - In defense of DG's position, I cannot understand how you can infer that TT's "right arm throw" action should start with a 8-7 start down move. I can understand a pivot-driven swing starting with a 8-7 start down move and that the right arm throw is only used to trigger the release of the power package. However, TT specifically states that one must start the downswing with a "right arm throw action" that throws the clubshaft down-and-out onto the plane before the body moves. TT also specifically states that one should get the "feeling" of getting the clubhead past the left thigh before the body moves. Of course, that's not possible, but I cannot understand TT's intent - which is to make the body reactive to the throw, and that it should respond secondarily to the throw action - rather than preceding the throw action (ala Ben Hogan).

DG

My understanding of a karate chop action is an action where one drives the forearm down in such a manner that the wrist will uncock in the plane of the forearm motion, which means that the forearm movement must be in an ulnar direction. That's what the left forearm does during TT's right arm throw action where the clubshaft is thrown down-and-out onto the plane. However, the right forearm is 90 degrees opposed to the left arm flying wedge which means that the right forearm must move in a direction where the ventral aspect of the right forearm (front of the right forearm) is thrown down-and-out. In that sense, the motion of the right forearm cannot be correctly described as a karate chop action.

Jeff.

It's interesting that the first sentence of 10-20 of the 7th edition which is a change from the 6th and it reads...."Trigger Types are classified according to the point of origin of the action." That seems to be consistent with Tommy's explanation on section 20 FOR SWINGING. Five ways to start the downswing...which I believe is consistent with Longitudinal Acceleration. As Tommy said "one smooth motion"....

This is my last response until after next Saturday....have a good week.

Truth In Triggering
 

"Point of Origin" in 10-20 refers to the originating point of the Action that Triggers the Release. In other words, the locus http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/locus of the Triggering Action. Is that locus the Hands (10-20-A)? The Right Arm (10-20-B)? The Right Shoulder (10-20-C)? The Left Wrist (10-20-E)? Or, for Automatic applications, the end of the Delivery Path (usually in Combination with either the Right Arm or Left Wrist / 10-20-D)? Or in some other Combination (11-20 lists some, but certainly not all)?

The quote emphatically does NOT apply to the three Release Points (Sweep, Random and Snap) or Release Types (Full Sweep, Random Sweep, Snap and Flip). While the Variations of the Trigger (Component #20) and the Release (Component #24) are ordered to reflect their parallel nature, the Release Points and Types are specific to the Release Component (11-24).

I continue to post in this thread because I believe there is value in refuting -- by differentiating with the facts and appropriate references -- the misinformation attributed to Tom Tomasello by his most ardent proponent.

:salut:

Here is a link to a Peter Croker article.

http://www.petercroker.com/englisch/...olferapril.htm

I believe that Peter learnt TGM from TT, and I can sense TT's influence in his swing methodology.

The first photo series summarises Peter's swing methodological approach.

1) The idea is to get the clubhead down to the ball as fast as possible using the hands to throw the club.

2) The body reacts to the hand throw and does not initiate the downswing action with a pivot-drive.

3) The hand throw must throw the clubshaft down-and-out on plane - the plane of the uncocking left arm.

4) There will not be an early release (clubhead throwaway) if the throw is on-plane - see his photo series. One can see that Peter maintains his power package assembly intact in photo 2.

In a spirit of intellectual curiosity I have experimented with this technique, and I believe that it is a very viable method of swinging.

Consider the technique of swinging the hands down-and-out "on-plane".

One option is TT's right arm throw method. In that method one is using the right arm to throw the left arm/hand down-and-out. In the first part of the throw sequence, the right arm is adducted to the right side and the right elbow positionally approximates the right hip area (photo 2). This action drives the left arm/hand down-and-out on the plane (while keeping the left and right flying wedges intact). In the second half of the right arm throw action, the right elbow actively straightens applying pressure to PP#1 thus causing the left arm/hand to continue its down-and-out movement. Eventually PA#2 releases by centrifugal action and finally PA#3 releases automatically (as Peter describes in his tennis raquet sequence).

From my perspective, there is potential danger to throwing the left arm/hand down using this "right arm throw" technique. If one is driving the left arm/hand down-and-out onto the plane using a right elbow straightening action, then it is possible for the active right arm thrust to i) over-accelerate the left arm/hand too fast into impact and providing insufficient time for the complete passive release of PA#2 and PA#3; or ii) the right arm thrust may produce too much push-pressure at PP#3 thus causing the clubshaft to be driven forward in a hitting action. That will interfere with the centrifugal release of PA#2.

I think that a better method of throwing the left arm/hand down-and-out on plane is to simply pull the left arm down-and-out onto the plane while aiming one's hands at the ball (aiming point). This allows for a passive centrifugal release of PA#2 and a natural/automatic release of PA#3 without any interfence by the right arm/hand applying push-pressure at PP#1 or PP#3. In this method, the right arm/forearm/hand's only contribution will be to i) apply extensor action throughout the swing; ii) sense clubhead lag at PP#3; iii) maintain the clubshaft on-plane through the magic of the right forearm. The right arm will be not be used to power the downswing left arm/hand throw action.

Jeff.

This might be the difference between a "hand motion" controlled pivot and a "hands sensation" controlled pivot...no...those terms are not in the book but ...

The book and TGM tend to focus on learning through sensing lag pressure...once sensed the pivot can direct the hands along a delivery path appropriate for the shot. The book mentions taking sufficient time at "top" to plot the required path for dwonswing.

But this system requires time for lag sensation to be experienced at loading...brain then computes required delivery path...then action taken.

What would happen if the brain automatically moved the hands along a preprogrammed delivery path...without any conscious waiting for lag pressure.

To a player it might feel like "just moving the hands"...

maybe?? more fuel to the fire... and either way - I suspect that the body moves first anyway! :laughing9

Subconscious Performance
 

Ultimately, all these skills reside in the subconsious. Then, per Chapter 14:

". . . finally may come the time where the intended Ball behavior could be all the only consious programming you'll need to do . . . "

-- Homer Kelley

As in 'tying your shoelaces', you just do it!

:golf:

Delaware's Detours
 

DG,

Your post has about as many confused concepts as it does lines, and I refuse to waste my time correcting them. I will, however, expose (and correct) the most egregious error relevant to this thread.

The Basic Stroke Patterns (12-1-0 / Drive [Radial] Loading and 12-2-0 / Drag [Longitudinal] Loading) were introduced with the 4th Editon. The Right Arm Throw (10-20-B) was the designated Release Trigger (Component #20) for Drive Loading and the Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E) was the designated Variation for Drag Loading. THAT HAS NOT CHANGED! Not from the 4th to the 5th editions. Not from the 5th to the 6th editions. And certainly not from the 6th to the 7th editions.

In fact, in ALL the Stroke Patterns of ALL seven editions, NEVER ONCE has the Right Arm Throw been associated with Longitudinal Loading. The truth is that it has ALWAYS been associated with DRIVE Loading.

DG, your continued blatant disregard for The Golfing Machine as written by Homer Kelley and studied by Authorized Instructors and interested amateurs around the world is inconsistent with the mission of this website. Given your 'time in grade', to say that I am disappointed is an understatement. If these outrageous (and seemingly deliberate) inaccuracies continue, my only recourse will be to limit your posts to a dedicated thread prefaced by my own Caveat Emptor warning.

Wow....I wish I could say more...but this is your website and I'm you sure you would delete my response. Did you and Tommy have a falling out. I can't believe you were friends at the end.

DG

Whoops....Little Man with Big Stix
 

Wow....I wish I could say more...but this is your website and I'm you sure you would delete my response. Did you and Tommy have a falling out. I can't believe you were friends at the end.

Even before Tommy shook Homer's hand....he had 48 hours worth of phone conversations on audio tape. Wow....must have been a wealth of knowledge in those 48 hours let alone the 8 12 hour days that he spent with Homer in his master class that he also caught on audio tape. I really don't know how Tommy could've have gone wrong. And even Golf Illustrated interviewed him...something good must have been happening in those Swinging, Hitting and Advanced schools. I'll let the members of this forum be the judge. Oh, btw, a number of the top University Golf Coachs studied with Tommy at his Myrtle Beach studio....even sent complementry notes after their instruction. Go figure....

GI:What happens to the shots of a player who executes these moves?

Tomasello: The player will immediately hit the ball higher and straighter, and substantially longer. The flight pattern will be dead straight to its apex, with the ball falling a touch left or drawing fractionally as it descends.

Imagine that...surely none of us want that.

DG

And I'm sure I won't be the last ardent proponent.

For Swinging...."Centrifugual Force Uncocks BOTH the Left Wrist and the Right Elbow." Reference 7-1. Even after telling me to start the club down with the right arm Tom Tomasello reference that sentence in 7-1.

As Tommy said...."the learning is never ending." GI 1991.

I'll be the judge...
 

Re: btw

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showt...1559#post51559

DG wrote-: "Even before Tommy shook Homer's hand....he had 48 hours worth of phone conversations on audio tape. Wow....must have been a wealth of knowledge in those 48 hours let alone the 8 12 hour days that he spent with Homer in his master class that he also caught on audio tape. I really don't know how Tommy could've have gone wrong. And even Golf Illustrated interviewed him...something good must have been happening in those Swinging, Hitting and Advanced schools. I'll let the members of this forum be the judge. Oh, btw, a number of the top University Golf Coachs studied with Tommy at his Myrtle Beach studio....even sent complementry notes after their instruction. Go figure...."

This is a totally irrational argument. One's ability to understand TGM is not directly proportional to the amount of time a TGM enthusiast spent with HK, or the number of hours he personally spent thinking about TGM teachings. There is a confounding variable in this simplistic cause-and-effect equation - the intellect of the TGM enthusiast and his mental ability to correctly digest HK's ideas. When DG states that he doesn't know "how Tommy could have gone wrong", it only reflects his personal bias and his inability to mentally entertain alternative perspectives. I would greatly respect DG's opinions if he could describe TT's ideas using TGM terminology and TGM mechanics/biomechanics. However, he never attempts to describe TT's ideas - he simply states that the "evidence" is clearly evident in TT's articles/videos/audio tapes. That's like the church scientists of the Vatican who clearly believed that the earth was flat (because of their biblical teachings) and who didn't think that alternative perspectives (Galileo's belief that the earth was round) could possibly be correct.

Jeff.

The Tired Tirade
 

First, there is no TGM defense of DG's position.

Second, since you provided no quote or reference regarding my "inference", I can only presume that you are referring to my Post #120 above. That being the case, I clearly stated that the Release Trigger is employed at -- gasp! -- the Release (8-9) and not at Start Down (8-7).

Third, as far as Tom Tomasello and what he taught is concerned, I could care less, except that I am growing weary of correcting misconceptions either taught by him or promoted as being taught by him.

Jeff,
Review the Letter Series and the Australian Series- especially Chapter 2 and Chapter 5 - it's all there!!! You need to watch it at least 100 times before you understand the details. If you want the article from Golf Illustrated - PM me and I'll send it to you - Go Tommy YEE HAW!!!

In Summary . . .
 

LOL, Mike O. You nailed it!

:laughing9

A Question of Credibilty
 

Lynn,

For the four the years that I have been reading your posts....I've learned nothing. Zippo...

It's interesting....one minute you're saying how much you appreciate my input on this site and now you're giving me a hard time because of new information about swinging from Tommy that goes against your instruction.....talk about lack of crediblity....in my book it's the worst kind.

DG

The Whole Problem
 

Dave,
You've summarized the whole problem and what everyone has been trying to tell you. Glad you finally figured it out. Don't worry too much about it - you had the same problem with Tommy. PM me when you get your next degree.

Mike - that was funny!

I have seriously tried to be open-mided about DG's point of view and I have seriously tried to understand TT"s "right arm throw" action, but my understanding is handicapped by a lack of a detailed TGM-based description that is logically coherent and logically consistent.

Yoda

There is one part of TT's "right arm throw" action that I believe is practically possible - the idea of throwing the clubshaft down-and-out without a conscious pivot-driven move preceding the throw action. If it is practically possible - then I would like to understand the process better using TGM terminology and TGM mechanics/biomechanics. In a Ben Hogan style swing, the downswing action is pivot-driven, which means that the left arm moves secondary to the release of PA#4 (left arm is blasted into orbit when the pivot subsides). However, TT obviously throws the left arm downplane without using a pivot-driven release of PA#4 to move the left arm downplane. I am not implying that it's a desirable method of moving the left arm in the downswing. I merely acknowledge the fact that it is a possible method of executing a left arm swinging action and I am trying to understand it from a TGM perspective. Peter Croker also teaches a similar swing style, and I would like to better understand its strengths/weaknesses from a TGM perspective.

Jeff.

Mike....everytime I watch the Tomasello material I learn something new. The funny thing is....I am not the only one. There are a lot of forum members getting a lot out the Tomasello videos and interview. Your petty comments mean nothing to me Mike...everytime you make these silly little comments, it reminds me of the thing about Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan. Jack use to watch Hogan practice....Ben never watched Jack practice.

DG

Dave,
Petty indeed - It is just frustating to watch someone not be able to communciate their view clearly or acknowledge someone's else's view clearly -no communication - and then repeatedly say - just watch the video or read the article.

You know...as bad as you guys consider Tommy's instruction you sure give it a lot of attention. Thanks for giving me the spotlight. And I didn't even finish my bio...your loss:eyes: :happy3: :confused1 :laughing9 I tell you...I believe someone in the TGM community will surface and will back Tommy's instruction. Someone will come out of the woodwork...Tommy taught too many individuals. Take for instance Coophitter...

DG

DG, would it be possible for you to edit the relevant sections of your TT videos, add in some title/description pages and post a "video argument" on youtube? ie. a video which you feel shows TT's belief / ideas ...collated from the segments which you often reference but few of us actually go back and review :laughing9

I think that would allow you to demonstrate what you are trying to describe - if there is video evidence of TT not only saying what you say he said...but also demonstrating what he said he did... that might help too.

I am guessing that one bit would be the right handed arrow in Australian clip ?? The one where he makes a faster swish ??

Really, until you can post something like that...I think the post will continue to disintegrate... but with Microsoft Moviemaker...a few hours of video editing ....and you have your position visible for no cost $.

In the Case of "TGM versus DG" currently being held at Salem Court House:laughing9 - The facts which need to be explained are:-

For The Prosecution witnesses
Homer, for all his precision, said in 10-20-B "...usually restricted to hitting"... which ,if you take Homer as 100% precise, means that he must have had another application for this trigger. He did not say "Always restricted to hitting".

What was the other application that Homer had in mind which restricted him form stating "always restricted to hitting" ?

For the Defense witness (thats you DG!)
DG, How can you explain the video evidence which (to the best of my knowledge) always shows the pivot move before the right forearm?

From my own view, I think that you will find that the intention to move your right forearm as you describe causes an actual pivot motion which precedes your forearm motion -

ie. - in order to allow the forearm to feel like it is pulling the pivot does something first to allow your intended action (so the player feels their intention first...but the video camera sees the pivot move before the right forearm - a fact that you need to explain)

And then, once you feel you are pulling "down and out" like TT / Croker...the pivot moves in response to maintain balance.

I also think that Mike Austinites, who claim to throw from the top (but clearly have a pivot motion preceding their hands/forearms),...their feels can also be explained by this same method.... The pivot preempts the intention to move the right forearm... and then reacts to forearm motion to maintain balance.
This is the only way I can square this circle - TT did not invent a new Biomechanical/kinetic paradigm....but he did describe a new feel.

Annoying thread
 

DG Unless you put up some of the video or audio evidence you claim to have viewed to support you position I do not feel further discussion is warranted. I have reviewed a video of one of TT's master classes and find nothing to support your position. It was filmed at Deer Track inside with the shades drawn, Tommy is sitting at his desk or standing in front of the windows hitting balls into a net. Lots of great stuff in video but nothing different. I would love to see and hear what you have. I do know that Alex Sloan disagreed with Tommy on several of his interpretations of Homer's book. However all of these anticdotal stories are just that, not acceptable in proving a point. We need to have Tommy's words edited, compiled and presented by you to further your argument

Amen!
 

Amen belongs here!

Possible post of the year for 2008!

Been There, Done That
 

"Hand-Controlled Pivot", anyone?

"Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot. That does not abolish, neglect or replace the Pivot, but it does revise its role . . . "

-- Homer Kelley (9-1)

Same old story
 

Dave,

You must be the only member on this site, instructors included, who hasn't learned anything from Lynns 7000 + posts. It begs the question, why are you here?

Of course the answer is to promote Tom's teaching.

We are happy to promote Tom as well and don't have any problem with his teaching - The problem lies with your interpretation of Toms teaching. Your statements are always peppered with "I believe" this is what Tom meant, and those types of inferences can be challenged.

There is a living teacher here (who owns this site) with very deep and factual insights on TGM. I believe I'll listen and interact with him. Since you haven't listened to other instruction going back to the TGM site Chuck was running, you might consider starting your own commercial website.

Golfbulldog

You wrote-: "From my own view, I think that you will find that the intention to move your right forearm as you describe causes an actual pivot motion which precedes your forearm motion".

The question becomes - which body part moves first, and what reacts to what, and whether there is a biomechanical difference in the pivot action between Hogans' pivot-driven swing and TT's "right arm throw" swing".

I sincerely believe that TT's "right arm throw" action is the same move that I make when I perform a stone skipping action starting with my right hand held at right shoulder level. When I start the action, my mind is definitely focused on my right hand/stone and the first conscious move is an adduction of the right arm towards the torso with the intention of bringing my right elbow down to its pitch position. Near simultaneously, I feel my lower torso move to the left as I replant weight onto my left foot. That lower torso move is not a conscious move, but an unconscious reactive move, and it occurs fractionally later than my right upper limb move.

My description is very different to Hogan's description in this swing video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Hogan clearly states that he starts the downswing with a lower body move and he therefore makes no conscious attempt to pull his right elbow down to his right side. The right elbow moves reactively/secondarily to the lower body move. In other words, there is a biomechanical difference in the pivot-action of TT's "right arm throw" swing than Hogan's swing, although it may appear similar to the untrained eye.

Jeff.

Skipping Rocks the Old-Fashioned Way
 

Wow, Jeff, we sure do skip rocks differently. I skipped about a million of'em into the Rhine River as a kid, and I always stepped left before I made the skip. Never once did my right arm start forward before my left foot hit the ground. For sure, I felt the pull ("adduction" in your lingo) of my right arm, but that was because my stepping left leg was doing the pulling!

The same thing happens when you step forward before you throw a ball. Look at any ball player's throwing motion: At no time will you see the arm start forward before they step. In fact, I would argue that it is still going back.

Heck, who cares about throwing, just walk around a bit, let your arms swing freely and tell me: when you're right arm has swung back, does it start forward before your right leg steps? Of course not. Again, I would argue that it is still going back.

The same thing happens in a golf swing. I cannot believe that any intelligent person would think -- much less teach -- that the motion originates any other way.

:hang:

The Dividing Line.....
 

Wow....The Dividing Line above....what an excellent place to end this thread.

Remember this....Tommy was able to teach the Mental game too over 20 years ago...he had it down then.

Mr. Tomasello had way more going for him than just swing mechanics...

Happy Holidays...

DG

The Shrine
 

Not so fast, DG. In fact, there's no end in sight on this one! Especially now that you have introduced Tommy's heretofore unknown Mental Game.

As we head into 2009, this thread is hereby deemed Open in Perpetuity and dedicated to Delaware Golf and his Tomasello Memories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nSCkfXuyqw

"Yee Haw!"

:salut:

Yoda - you wrote-: "Wow, Jeff, we sure do skip rocks differently. I skipped about a million of'em into the Rhine River as a kid, and I always stepped left before I made the skip. Never once did my right arm start forward before my left foot hit the ground. For sure, I felt the pull ("adduction" in your lingo) of my right arm, but that was because my stepping left leg was doing the pulling! "

I fully understand your stone skipping action. I can understand why you believe that your "stepping left leg was doing the pulling." Your stepping left leg allowed your lower torso to start the throw action with a lower body rotary movement that torques the entire torso. The entire torso unwinds and pulls the right arm into action - like a baseball pitcher throwing a fast ball.

I use a different stone skipping action. I pre-place the lead leg in a forward position so that it can accept the weight transfer that will occur secondary to the initiation of the right hand throw. I then focus my mind on my right hand in preparation for the throw action. I then start the throw action with a definite "feeling" of adducting the right arm and pulling the right elbow down to the right hip area. However, before I can even move my right arm I unconscioulsy transfer weight to the lead leg so that the lower torso can move targetwards and form a base of support for my spiralling upper torso and thrusting right arm. I don't use the lower torso to pull my upper torso and right upper limb into the throw action. I move the lower torso laterally towards the target so that it can continue to effectively support my right arm throw action and rotating upper torso as a bracing support structure.

Your pivot action will result in a more powerful throw, but my action (with a primary focus on the right hand) may produce a more accurate throw.

You wrote-: "The same thing happens in a golf swing. I cannot believe that any intelligent person would think -- much less teach -- that the motion originates any other way."

I thought that HK didn't rigidly dictate how the golf swing should evolve. I thought that he was more focused on delineating all the options. For example, I have decided to describe my "reactive pivot action" in a separate thread. Don't you think that HK would have found my approach acceptable as an alternative approach that is suitable for golfers with a different set of biomechanical strengths and limitations?

Jeff.

Simple - you don't want to.

Personally i have no idea how Yoda puts up with you given your cunning personal slights and degradations.

John,

I do not post messages on this site or any website to start an arguement, I'm here to seek the truth in a positive way....but really, you don't know me. And I believe the people who I have helped with TGM will see through your comments.

I'm sorry, I believe my perspective is a lot different then yours. I have yet to experience any revelations about the book with Lynn's instruction. I had over ten years with the book and read the book every day for 5 or 6 years (1991 to 1996-1997 got a lot of my questions answered with my instruction with Tom Tomasello in 1993)...I stopped reading it every day soon after I went back to school in 1996...but still read it a lot until I completed my two Engineering degrees in 2000) when Lynn came on the seen, it's been fun watching the little green man grow as an instructor.

btw....I remember when most of you were learning about the hitting stroke a few years ago....for me it was fun to watch/read/listen to your discovery....it was something I knew about...practiced and incorporated into my game over 10 years ago. I believe soon you will come to realize the genius behind Tom's decision to develop a swinging school, hitting school and advanced school to make a student a really complete...high level player/shot maker.

For me...it appears the true dividing line is the swinging stroke pattern....is it a true dividing line or is it an area in TGM that will bring together the whole TGM community....I hope it's the latter. I didn't start this thread to take sides...only to seek the truth. How could I not with a GSED who claims he knew the book better than anyone (Tomasello.crica 1987/1988 )...Tom also said he studied TGM closely with Homer for 5 years (which included hours and hours of phone conversations on audio tape). And Tommy claimed Homer became like a second father to him...I truly don't believe that Tommy deviated from Homer's instruction...

DG

Truth In TGM
 

You might want to review my above Posts #9, #34, #120, #124, and #128. Maybe you missed a nugget or three.

:book:

Small Wheels and Large Wheels
 

Can you explain the difference between Circle Delivery and Straight Line Delivery....and the concept of a small wheel and a large wheel and how they relate to the Circle and Straight Line Delivery. And also how one would execute that with their stroke pattern....swinging or hitting.

Thanks,

DG

Old Dogs And New Tricks
 

Yes, but why go into all those pesky facts now? Let's just enjoy the current moment and throw the club with the right arm to trigger the start of the downswing.

:notworthy

Serious Request
 

Sorry Yoda....that was a serious request? Might give you an opportunity to teach me something. Right or Wrong???

DG

Play It Again, Sam
 

I luv ya, DG, but having been 'round the block with you more than once or twice these past five years, I must defer. Somehow, it always results in the same ol' song. I respect that song, of course, and applaud your ability to sing it. It's just that . . .

I think we all get it now and are ready to move on.

My perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZmB988vvSI

Click, watch as the rotor spins the record (close-ups halfway through), then minimize -- and enjoy! -- as you contemplate on these things, then KNOW that . . .

This is LAG.

Rotor lag. [Body]

Record lag. [Arms]

Needle lag. [Hands]

Music lag. [Club]

Just do it.

:salut: