Wouldn't touch it . . . I'd teach him how to putt . . . If I knew how . .

I mean talk to me about his alignments . . . I MEAN ALIGNMENTS . . . not how his hands work . . .

What's not to love about this golf swing?

Tripod?

Flail?

Hula Hula?

Hinging?

Tell me what you see . . .

Folding like a cheap deck chair!
 

I can't believe you called me on that! You grew up in smoke-filled back rooms with the clink of plastic chips as your lulla-bye...didn't ya?

I'm going to check out one his swing sequences and manufacture a scurrilous critique after the fact. You have not heard the last of me...Bucket!

I would have had him make a bigger hip turn going back, take the pressure off his lower back. All I can come up with on short notice!

Slinking away....

Better come back with a putter sequence!

“You have no need for your weapons with me, Gurney Halleck.”

I’m not in disagreement with you. We drive on the right side of the road to travel from point A to Point B. The English, drive on the left. Would you give them an “F”? If you were sitting next to them in the passenger seat, would you tell them to move over to the right lane?

If we are in America and I was telling someone how to make a left turn, I would say to, first drive through the intersection and then turn the steering wheel counterclockwise. If you do that in England, You’ll crash into an oncoming car.

In my (our) Book, we would first teach him to Hinge the Primary Lever. I would ask him to practice Basic Motion Strokes and attend to the Curriculum as outlined in the “Book” of Revelations: “The Golfing Machine”. But first, I would ask him to hit 100 balls his way, because it is sooo much fun to watch. It’s Fluid, Graceful and Powerful.

Bucket Said: Homer said EVERYTHING is workable basically . . . even Pivot Controlled Hands and intentional Clubhead Throwaway.

Daryl Says: Ya, but he didn’t really mean it, unless you’re willing to give up your childhood to make it workable. It’s in the Cliff Notes.

Bucket Said: The Flat Left Wrist is rooted in the Law of the Flail. It is the relationship of the Clubshaft and the Left Arm that Homer was describing . . .the Left Wrist can thus be anatomically Flat and Geometrically Flat . . .OR it can be Anatomically Flat and Geometrically Flat . . . but in order to satisfy the conditions of the Flail it is ALWAYS ALWAYS Geometrically Flat.

Daryl Says: The Arm and Club are only Flail like. It is Geometrically Flat if the Clubhead and Hands have the same RPM.

Bucket Said: Notice the pictures in 2-K . . . there is a true Flail and a Golfers Flail . . . The true Flail CAN BE VALID in golf. I submit that Couples and Garcia seemingly THROW the club . . .BUT the appearce of their wrist conditions can be deceptive . . . You have to have the proper perspective to see it . . .it is the Left Arm and Shaft that must comply.

Daryl Says: Not. It is the Hands and Clubhead that need to comply by having the same RPM before the Club and Arms reach full extension.

Bucket Said: The grip is essentially just how you attach yourself to the golf club. In order for the club to work the hands have to do certain things based on complying with the Law of the Flail . . . the may not always LOOK right if you focus on the hands and not the club and the arm.

Daryl Says: Is English your first Language?

Bucket Said: In Orlando I was hitting these low lefties . . . very solid but a bit low. . . Lynn comes over and goes . . .Your Flail has to work like this . . . Left wrist cocks and BENDS to get the club out of it's follow through alignments. The ball instantly went up . . . compression increased . . . and ball go straight.

Daryl Says: Did the Ball go up because of your follow-through or because of something you did to produce that follow-through? Did Yoda reach for a Martini afterwards to calm his nerves?

Bucket Said: Don't always judge the book by its cover or the golfer by their wrist alignments.

Daryl Says: I don’t. I judge them by their choice of "Kool-aid" Flavor. :laughing9

The Guy on the Top, has extra layback because his right elbow is hanging back. Too bad he doesn't swivel but uses his Pivot to Roll the Lever. Look at Frame #8. This guy is great. TVA Grip. Could Have been a perfect Horizontal Hinge.


The Guy on the Bottom is TTU. Strong Double Action Underhand Grip. He has the same right elbow alignment problem as the Top Guy. It's laying back the Clubface through impact. He's comming in over the Top. Look how High His Right Forearm is. If his clubhead arrives a split second early, he'll high-hook the hell out of it.

Yeah Bucket...what Daryl said!

My Goodness!
 

I LUV this place!

Great posts, guys.

:clap:

P.S. There is not a better Right Forearm Pickup (2-F) -- with Full Pivot and Centered Head -- than Bucket's sequence of Fred Couples (Frames 2-4). There is not a better 'Through the Ball' (7-24) Release Sequence (Release to Follow-Through per Sections 8-9/11) than Daryl's sequence of Lee Trevino (Frames 7-10).

Peanut or Plain?
 

Thanks Yoda!:laughing9 Hey Daryl, have referenced the "cliff notes" a couple of times. Are you holding out on us, or what? I know you alumnus-types have all the goodies, don't ya? You don't seem to like the 7th Addiction a whole lot. Spill the M&M's! Until Yoda and Marvel get their respective acts together, and publish a TGM inspired comic book series, I need all the inside stuff I can get. Extensor Man thrusting to low point! Speaking of low points...I apologize:laughing1


I was thinking almost exactly what your post script said. Freddie is a good example of how there are no flat spots in a circle!

Couple's Sequence
 

Pic 1 of Freddies swing can't be the same sequence :)

I'm only telling you this because I like your posts so don't go private messaging everybody out there.

Once you reach 422 posts, LBG sends to you, by Special Delivery, the "Teachers Guide" and an e-mail link to the "TGM Advanced User Website" where you can participate in three forums.

They are:

1. "TGM Simplified" :laughing9
2. "Secrets" :naughty:
3. "Answers to all of the Questions" :confused1

Have you notice my comments became more credible after post #422 compared to previous posts? I think that 422 posts is an average. I read, on the Secret Web-Site, that it took Bucket 800 posts but only took EdZ 324 of them. "Cliff Notes" is a secret word used by the advance members when they refer to information on the "Advanced User Site". "It's in the Cliff Notes" means that the information is readily available on the Advanced Website.

Who knows? Maybe you'll get lucky. :happy3: I'm not sure, but Bucket knows, that golfers Posting and Participating in the Forums on this site, can sense the "Cliff Notes" coming. :)

One of a Kind
 

:laughing9 LOL, Daryl.

If people could only 'hear' your voice as you 'say' all this! Those who can only 'read' your posts miss a ton.

You, sir, are an 'original'.

:salut:

We'll have a lot of fun at the reunion! :)

The Homecoming
 

It will be more than a reunion . . . we'll have lots of new folk, too. All LBG members will be welcome!

Don't invite the "CALIFORNIANS". Not Them. How about just those that live between the East Coast and California. :eyes:

The only reason he's got a bad back is because he plays golf for a living . . .

Original what???

In my (our) Book, we would first teach him to Hinge the Primary Lever. I would ask him to practice Basic Motion Strokes and attend to the Curriculum as outlined in the “Book” of Revelations: “The Golfing Machine”. But first, I would ask him to hit 100 balls his way, because it is sooo much fun to watch. It’s Fluid, Graceful and Powerful.

D . . . Fred Couples won't answer the phone because "someone may be on the other end." If you tell Freddy curriculum and Hinge the Primary Lever that dude glazes over like a box of Krispy Kreme Doughnuts.

You like watching Freddy swing because his ALIGNMENTS ARE GOOD . . . your eyes recognize it . . . but your brain cells ain't there yet.



Daryl Says: Ya, but he didn’t really mean it, unless you’re willing to give up your childhood to make it workable. It’s in the Cliff Notes.

Did your rip Chapter 10 out of your book?


Daryl Says: The Arm and Club are only Flail like. It is Geometrically Flat if the Clubhead and Hands have the same RPM.

Almost right . . . it's the LEFT ARM not the hands . . .Define the Primary Lever . . . it is the WHOLE LEFT ARM AND THE CLUB.


Daryl Says: Not. It is the Hands and Clubhead that need to comply by having the same RPM before the Club and Arms reach full extension.

Again . . . Define Primary Lever . . . the Hands are what connect the shaft and arm . . . can operate like hinge that don't allow Horizontal Motions . . .OR it can operate like a STRAP HINGE THONG TYPE THINGIE (don't go there . . . that's my job) . . . which is what you see in Sergio, Freddy, Bobby Jones and many others . . .the Law of the Flail is beautifully complied with just not the way you are used to seeing it . . . Freddy's Flail works different than Hogan's. But it still complies.

Look at the pictures . . . but this time don't cover up your eyes with your hands.


Daryl Says: Is English your first Language?

awwwwhellnawbowegondowntudapiggywiggygetusagrapsod aanamoonpie. isanglishmuhfirstspanglishwhatkinnakewishtonisdat?


Daryl Says: Did the Ball go up because of your follow-through or because of something you did to produce that follow-through? Did Yoda reach for a Martini afterwards to calm his nerves?

Ask Lynn about perverted Swivel . . . and not the one that Mike O does out behind the dumpster peepin' in on the water aerobics classes down at the old folks home.

Now answer these questions without using any language from the book . . . just look at sequence of Couples and of Lee Buck.

1. Where would you say the clubhead passes Freddy's hands?

2. Why does the club pass Freddy's hands?

3. Describe the differences in where Freddy's face points at the top and where Lee Buck's face points at the top.

4. Describe the similarities and/or differences in the clubshafts in the impact frames

5. When does the club pass Lee's hands? When does the club pass Fred's hands?

6. Describe the similarities and/or differences in how their bodies are positioned at finish.

No book words . . . just regular people words.

Daryl,

Not singling you out - love your posts.

But - the guy above (Trevino) appears to me to be simultaneous release. Look at pic 8 - face is looking downplane (as a side not - which would necessitate angled hinging, or hook it off the planet), left wrist appears to be uncocking, right elbow opposes the shaft. Hitter all the way to me.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'Too bad he doesn't swivel but uses his Pivot to Roll the Lever.'?

Guy on bottom, to me, is a swinger. His elbow is deep pitch, and in the 5th shot, is leading the hands - to me a sign of 'pulling'.

Anyways, want to hear your elaboration of pivot roll versus swivel.

Thanks,
Patrick

High Right Forearm??? These cats have On-Plane Right Forearms better'n about anybody ever to lace 'em up . . .

Submission Couples . . .






Submission Lee Buck . . .

Freddies Right Forearm does come in from too high.

1. Where would you say the clubhead passes Freddy's hands? After Impact.

2. Why does the club pass Freddy's hands? Clubhead has greater RPM.

3. Describe the differences in where Freddy's face points at the top and where Lee Buck's face points at the top. Freddie: On Plane. Lee: Looks closed.

4. Describe the similarities and/or differences in the clubshafts in the impact frames I don't see a Freddie Impact frame.

5. When does the club pass Lee's hands? When does the club pass Fred's hands? The Clubhead does not pass Lees hands.

6. Describe the similarities and/or differences in how their bodies are positioned at finish. Both Finishes are consistent with their backswing lengths. Hitter vs. Swinger

Bucket Said: The Flat Left Wrist is rooted in the Law of the Flail. It is the relationship of the Clubshaft and the Left Arm that Homer was describing . . .the Left Wrist can thus be anatomically Flat and Geometrically Flat . . .OR it can be Anatomically Flat and Geometrically Flat . . . but in order to satisfy the conditions of the Flail it is ALWAYS ALWAYS Geometrically Flat.

Daryl Says: The Flat Left Wrist is Rooted in the "Lever". The Flail was his explanation not his inspiration. The Arm and Club are only Flail like. The Lever, specifically the Arm and Clubshaft, is Geometrically Flat if the Clubhead and Left Hand have the same RPM.

I see what you see. Lee is Angle Hinging, I agree. But look at the Reverse Roll of his Right Hand before Impact. Classic Swinger. But his grip Rolls the Clubface so he doesn't need to Swivel. It's difficult to critique his swing and draw many conclusions. Swinger like, Hitter like. I don't know.

......and lag pressure is maintained until at least separation.

There are sooooooooo many lessons to learn about how it works from studying the idosyncrasies of Lee's swing . . .

There are soooo many conclusions you can draw and apply to what people do and should not do etc. etc.

You are looking at a golf swing that is based on extremes that works very well as far as hitting the ball solid every time and straight and low and with left to right spin and eliminate the left side of the golf course.

So the conclusions you should be able to draw . . .and let's see what you can come up with is . . .

1. What causes the ball to go low?
2. How did he eliminate the left side?
3. How did he hit HIS fade?
4. How did he manage to hit the ball solid almost everytime?

Uses your eyes and what you know . . . you can learn from this golf swing.

1. Plays the ball a little back, hands are well ahead at impact, club stays low well after impact.

2. Replanes the club well after impact, that is, down-the-line the club exits below the left shoulder. Also, angle hinges. Finally, he rotates his body hard aiding him in rotating the clubface very little in the downswing. Combine very little clubface rotation with a good amount of trigger delay it is hard to hit a hook.

3. See #2

4. His clubshaft came into impact in almost the same position (down-the-line) as it inhabited at address. Other players that did this extremely well, Nelson, Hogan, Snead, Price, all extremely solid ballstrikers. While it it not necessary to bring the shaft through at the same angle (or very close) as it was at address, it is pretty hard to do this and NOT hit the ball solid.

Matt

Daryl

Is this quoted from the 6th edition. Can you please leaborate on the second last paragraph please.

Thanks.
Quintin.

I should have said that 10-18-B more securely Loads the #3 Pressure Point.

Homer believes that the Left Wrist should become Flat after Startup and continue its Flatness till at least Both Arms Straight for both Hitters and Swingers. That’s my interpretation. It would be less confusing if he said that the Left Arm Wedge, the Left Arm and Clubshaft must not get out-of-Line. But he didn’t say that. He truly wants the Wedges established as soon as possible and maintained throughout the Swing.
Elbow Locations:
The Elbow Locations differ because the differences in Left Wrist Action Startup create different Elbow Locations.
Loading the Primary Lever:
The Hitter Loads the Primary Lever when he goes to Top. That means that the direction of Pressure on the #3 PP is against the fleshy part of the right forefinger and the Aft side of the Shaft. If a Hitter is at the Top Position and does nothing else but applies Pressure against the Shaft with this Fleshy Part of the Right Forefinger, then the Primary Lever will be forced off Plane only OUT in front of him. So the Hitter should not use Right Arm Thrust until the Right Elbow returns to Plane so that the Thrust is Down, Forward and Out. It’s important for the Hitter to Load the Primary Lever and maintain Extensor Action because CF is not going to be available to stiffen it. If the Hitter uses Left Wrist Action 10-18-C and Fans the Right Forearm at Startup, then the Right Elbow will go a little backwards at Startup and will be at his side during Release and his Right Elbow will be located for an On Plane Push/Thrust of the Primary Lever through Impact and the Left and Right Arm Flying Wedges relationship Geometry will be created.
Loading the Secondary Lever:
The Swinger should Load the Secondary Lever, the Clubshaft, and Homers solution is to take the Swing to the End Position. That position will create #3 PP pressure against the Top Side of the Shaft and against the Top side of the first Knuckle of the Right Forefinger if you follow his recommendation. Using Standard Left Wrist Action 10-18-A, when Fanning the Right Forearm at Startup leaves the Elbow stationary (in front of you) until Extensor Action raises the Arms and Club. This Action keeps the Right Elbow pointing more downward. This is where it really gets interesting. 10-2-B will have a Visual Bend in the Left Wrist IF we prevent the Right Wrist Bend from exceeding its Impact Degree of Bend. Then, the Geometry of the Right Arm Flying Wedge will be at Right Angles to Clubshaft with a Lower Right Elbow and the Left Arm and Clubshaft will keep its in-Line relationship.
Focus:
Hitters Focus more attention on the Left Arm Flying Wedge and should maintain the Wedge throughout the Swing. Swingers Focus more attention on the Right Arm Flying Wedge and maintain it throughout the Swing and will regain the Visually Flat Left Wrist at Impact because of Swivel. HK wants both Hitters and Swingers to focus on Both Wedges. The Million Dollar question is “Can you have a Left Arm Wedge if your Left Wrist is Visually Bent?”. I can’t answer that.
Comparison: End and Top
TOP Position for a Hitter is an alignment that doesn’t allow the Pressure to change from the aft Side of the Shaft against the Fleshy Part of the Right Forefinger which becomes simplified by using Left Wrist Action 10-18-C. The Hitter needs the Visually Flat Left Wrist because he needs to Create and maintain undisturbed Left Arm Wedge impact geometries so it is better for Him to Start his backswing at Impact Fix Hand location and maintain the Geometry throughout the Swing. Except for the Hitter, we should get it out of our heads that the Visually Flat Left Wrist at Impact means a Visually Flat Left Wrist during the Backswing.
End is a Geometrical Alignment of a Loading Action. End can be anywhere along the Backstroke Path. Using a 10-18-B and Fanning Startup will place the Pressure against the Top Side of the Shaft and Top of the Right forefinger knuckle for any Length Backstroke. If you apply extra #3 PP pressure in this geometry ( the Pressure being against the Top of the Shaft and Top of the Knuckle) then stopping the backswing at any location will show that the Secondary Lever, Clubshaft, will move On Plane, not only in the Out-direction like with the Hitter. This is important for the swinger because Pivot Thrust must not misalign the Clubshaft for the eventual Takeover of CF.
Solutions:
For a Swinger, in Order to maintain the Impact Degree of Bend of the Right Wrist and maintain a visually Flat Left Wrist throughout the Swing, then use Grip 10-2-E, VTU, with 10-18-C. Now you have a Visually Flat Left Wrist, it maintains the Correct Degree of Right Wrist Bend, the Flying Wedges have geometrical relationship, it allows the Right Elbow to return to a Pitch Elbow Release Position and all with a Straight Line Delivery Path.
My Component Selection Solution, 10-2-B, or better 10-2-C, with 10-18-B, Doesn’t disturb the Right Forearm Wedge and prevents the Right Wrist from exceeding its Impact Degree of Bend with a Pitch Elbow Position. Using a Pitch Elbow allows Less Right Wrist Bend at Impact than Push Elbow. Also, 10-18-B has less Slippage with the #3 PP and the #3 PP Pressure will return to the Aft Side of the Shaft at Impact during the Roll portion of a Sequenced Release.

Great Stuff....
 

I know its old now (going back to March), but, Damn, that was a good read. Thanks guys!

Daryl - wrote-: "If, at the start of Release, the Left Wrist , Forearm and Clubshaft are in-line (Primary Lever), the Left Wrist Flat and the Right Wrist Bent, then you can only Angle Hinge (10-3-C, 10-3-D and most people who use 10-3-A). You need to Un-Cock and Roll simultaneously or you will bend the Plane Line. You have no Choice. Get a bench and see for yourself or better, address an imaginary ball facing a wall with your Clubhead touching the wall. Position yourself at Release with a Flat Left Wrist, then Uncock, then Roll. You’ll see exactly what I’m talking about.

Start your downswing and stop at Release. Is the Clubshaft parallel to the ground and parallel to the Plane Line. If your Left Wrist is Flat (not bent) then your Right Wrist is Bent (Strong Single Action Grip) and if your Clubshaft is On Plane, and your Hands are approximately in front of your right leg, then you are Angle Hinging. For a Hitter, that’s good because the Primary Lever is rolling (Pivot) while the Left Wrist is Uncocking. Look at your Clubhead at this point. It is slightly Toe Down. If you’re a Swinger, and everything looks the same as above, then you must use Angled Hinging too.

The swinger who uses Angled Hinging must not try a Sequenced Release because you will bend the Plane Line. Swingers can compensate the Simultaneous Release by using a Very Strong Left Hand Grip (10-2-D) and still benefit from CF, with the Left Thumb and #3 Pressure Point directly behind the Shaft at impact (Like many Pro’s). If you don’t, then you’re Switting. Keep in mind that the Right Wrist remains Level throughout for both Hitting and Swinging, or Simultaneous or Sequenced release.

Flat Left Wrist/Bent Right Wrist at Release is not compatible with Sequenced Releases. Bent Left Wrist at Release is not compatible with Simultaneous Releases."

--------------------

I have higlighted certain of Daryl's statements in bold.

I don't understand all these claims - i) that there is necessary causal connection between a swinger's grip and/or left hand position at the delivery position and an ability to perform horizontal versus angled hinging post-impact; ii) that a swinger who uses angled hinging post-impact must not use a sequenced release and iii) that a swinger's left hand appearance in the downswing means that he is using angle hinging during the downswing (whatever that means).

Here is a photo of Tiger Woods and Adam Scott at address and at release (delivery position).



Tiger has a neutral left hand grip while Adam has a strong left hand grip.

At delivery, they both have the left hand flat but with slight variations in the degree of toeup position, due to grip variations.

Both of them can employ horizontal hinging naturally in the followthrough.

I know of necessary causal connection between i) a golfer's left hand grip and ii) the degree of left wrist flatness at the delivery position and I know of necessary causal connection between either i) or ii) and a golfer's ability to iii) perform a sequential release swivel action and square the clubface by impact and/or iv) a golfer's ability to perform horizontal hinging in the followthrough.

Jeff.

In post 37/38 12PB and Daryl are arguing about Sergio's right wrist position in this photo.



Daryl states that it is upcocked and 12PB states that it is level.

I have a problem with the idea of stating that the right wrist is either upcocked or level when the right wrist is maximally dorsiflexed. When the right wrist is maximally dorsiflexed, then it cannot cock freely in any direction - therefore it may be meaningless to describe its degree of cocked-upness. I think that a wrist can only cock freely when it is in a neutral or palmar flexed positon, but not when it is maximally dorsiflexed.

Daryl wrote in post #43

"The Clubshaft is On Plane. I agree. But it's too far Up Plane because his Right Wrist is Cocked. His impact needs some really critical timing. He has the talent and dedication and is able to make it work. However, if he Leveled his Right Wrist, he could Horizonal hinge."

I understand the situation very differently. I think that the the clubshaft appears too far up-plane because his right wrist is maximally dorsiflexed. When the right wrist is maximally dorsiflexed, the right wrist will appear upcocked because there are no choices in the degree of wrist upcockedness when the wrist is maximally dorsiflexed. However, that doesn't mean that SG cannot horizontally hinge post-impact because his right wrist will not be maximally dorsiflexed at impact and there will no restraints (imposed by the right wrist) on his ability to turn his flat left wrist horizontally (like a door opening) during the followthrough phase of the swing.

Jeff.

Daryl - you made number of statements regarding SG's swing

That his right wrist was upcocked at the delivery position.

That he must have therefore have a 10-2-D grip - based on inference rather than based on observation.

That he was obliged to use angled hinging in the followthrough because of his right wrist hand positon at the delivery position.

Here is a swing video of Sergio Garcia's swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bDGTEvnPjU

Here are capture images from that video.



Image 1 shows the end-takeaway - that doesn't look like a 10-2-D grip to me.

Image 2 doesn't show an upcocked right wrist - from my perspective.

Image 3 and 4 - shows the release swivel phase and how left wrist uncocking precedes release of PA#3.

Image 5 and 6 - shows horizontal hinging action in the followthrough.

Jeff.

but isnt the hinging noticed at both arms straight, thus image no.5 showing angled hinging? image 6 is past that point imho.

Powerdraw

That's a good point. Its' my impression when studying the swing video using my swing analyser program that the back of his left hand is moving vertical to the ground during the followthrough (rather than being vertical to the inclined plane), but it is seems that there is less external humeral rotation of the left humerus per unit time than one would expect if he had a more pronounced horizontal hinging action.

It could well be that I am wrong and that he is really using angled hinging.

Jeff.

Hard to say particularly with the plane angle that Sergio swings on . . . the flatter the plane the slower the face rotates for a given amount of roll.

12PB

That's another good point - the amount of roll required to complete a horizontal hinging action depending on the flatness of the clubshaft's inclined plane.

My main point is that I cannot personally identify a necessary causal connection between a golfer's right wrist/hand position at the delivery position and his ability to selectively perform a horizontal versus an angled hinging action in the followthrough. I also don't think that it makes sense to debate whether the right wrist is level or upcocked at the delivery position if the golfer employs a late release action where the right wrist is maximally dorsiflexed at that late release time point.

Jeff.