Hi Roy...

Instant Acceleration Hip Action.........


IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO.......

SOMEONE....

named.....

Ben....

Hogan.

-----Patrick

Yeah, yeah, Kelly used Hogan as a model & Hogan's hip rotation sequence can be called anything, but that doesn't change the fact that the swing tip in the WWoG tape still is not, as VJ Trolio has proven, what Hogan actually did in his swing. BH was 90% on his left leg as the club started down v the "hip/weight transfer motion" (small step) in the WWoG clip. VJ has gone so far as to state in his book that it appears Hogan may have done one thing with his swing while in front of a camera and another in competition to guard his "secret". That's one of the reasons VJ used competition footage to back up his analysis.

Hi Roy,


Please forgive me if I offended. I did not intent to.

Patrick

Philly, nice to see you around, still sharing the ol' wisdom eh?!

happy new year.

Please!
 

Please Powerdraw!- Let's not entice him- if Philly would ramp up and then Bucket ramps up - it'll be like the Matrix and the whole system would crash- if you like visiting the forum, then you really need to make a decision- Do you want to take the blue pill or the red pill?:confused1 Never mind - I think I forgot to take my medication.

hehe....i always take the darkside of the pill....lol

Matrix??? What grade are you in retard?

Hey Power! Happy New Year!

And dont listen to Mike - I've already taken my blue and pink and yellow pill.

:):):)

Ben's Move
 

Where does the move begin in this sequence?

One or two more
 

HG,

Thank you for posting that wonderful sequence with the gridlines.
If possible could you include one or two more prior to where they currently start? I think then the move will be more clear. By the first frame of your sequence, the move has been essentially made, the way I am understanding it.

Great post!

UPP in cold Ohio

[quote=vj;47255]

The Missing Piece isn't clubface control. It is simply Hogan's way of eliminating many unwanted shots. The physics and geometry it sets up explains his belief about planes he describes in Five Lessons. Mark Blackburn and I saw many people for many years that were "running out of right arm" because of where their center of mass was and what it made the left shoulder do. Dave Hamiliton helped me so much with the physics of the motion. All we want to do is contribute to what we have been taught by numerous teachers and players. That is one of the greatest things about the game...we can all share knowledge and pass it down through the generations.

[quote]

got my copy this mo by Fedex, 2/3rds through already and i'm really enjoying it alot. This is completely different then my present pattern, but as youve described in your book, i have many 'wobbles' especially about the pivot. I have much incubation to do now.

I just wanted to say thanks, when i get through the book and hit some balls, i will definately want to pick your brain:salut:

Three more frames
 

UPP...here are 3 extra frames in advance of the 1st one shown above....hope this helps...O:)

VJ,

i dont know if you mind me asking, but here gos.

question regarding page 49 at the end of the page. There is mention of impact circle with an axis 5 feet behind left foot, i dont see that in my noodle, could you explain?

I am really having fun with this book, we are in the deep frost right now in canada but indoor ranges open next week, for now, ice and snow are getting the wallup of the move, lol!

The impact circle axis is shown in Figures 11 & 12 on page 37.

Please sir, may I have some more
 

If it's not too much trouble, can I impose on you to post a few more frames in the sequence with the grid lines; from where they currently end, to follow through.

Thanks (either way)

I second that request. Those are great photos, HG.

In the other,black and white, video sequence of Hogan against a grid he looks to be sliding around on his left foot. No doubt he was swinging on a hard studio floor perhaps even in his street shoes.

Regards
O.B.Left

More Frames
 

Here you go Tank & OB Left. :)

Thank you, but the move as I interpret it is not evident to me in the sequence you have so generously shared. I would have expected to see the right hip move targetward as the arms start to swing back.

UPP in almost good enough to play Ohio

Per V.J.'s Instructions
 

Remember, Upp, the Turned (or Turning in V.J.'s description) Hip's Downstroke Slide does not begin until after the Backstroke's 'hip bump' (lateral Weight Shift / Hip Motion). And that Downstroke Shift does not start until after the Arms are well into the backstroke.

In fact, the 'where' of this Move defines V.J.'s 'secret'. If the lateral Shift occurs near the Top, then nothing new has been added. Among countless others, Bobby Jones, Ernest Jones and Ben Hogan himself have written of the near-top 'Reverse', i.e., Lower Body Leads . . . Upper Body Lags.

Body pulls Arms.

Arms pull Hands.

Hands pull Club.

In V.J.'s 'Secret', the Body Pull begins much earlier in the Backstroke -- with the Hands approximately waist high. Also, the 'look' is vastly different when the Head is held Centered (or nearly so) instead of being allowed to Sway -- purposefully or not -- to the right.

And therein lies the discussion.

:)

Thanks
 

Thank you very much

The move is best viewed from directly behind Hogan. It becomes very evident when you watch a sequence filmed from the back.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-YOe8f89Qg

Before you analyze too much
 

That sequence you are looking at is the one Hogan demonstrated for Shells Wonderful World. VJ does not think that Hogan used the move all the time. He believes that he was fully aware of doing it, and only did it in competition. If you watch in the final credits when he is actually hitting a shot during the match it is very clear that he is using it. There are also other videos on the three disc set when Hogan is in competition where he uses it.

yes thank you i can see that.

I just dont understand the explanation of having the axis at 5 feet behind his left foot with driver...

wait a minute, oh, the axis would be perpendicular to the lowpoint and the angled impact circle lines to left shoulder? i think i get it now, 3D not 2D.

I think VJ analysis from the back side makes looking at Hogan's swing and I am sure many others as well quite different than what it looks as if is being done.

I have been a Hogan fan for many of years. I have not master his swing, BUT I did go from 26 hdcp to 5 hdcp in 16 months using that book. But never got better, in fact overtime I managed to lose a lot of what I had learned and executed.

Most apparent was a Sunday afternoon in GA where I was asked, been reading the Hogan book? How close do you think Hogan thought the elbows needed to be? I think Yoda thought I was working on being double jointed so I could get then to touch the entire stroke. Oh, well... those days are gone.

I am will to be in the next coming months Hogan's swing will be reviewed again and again and this time there is going to be a bit of different spin or focus than from before.

I think VJ has given us something to work on and what will be more interesting is that if he is teaching this pattern to students, to start seeing them appear and being analyzed by the so called heavies.

Thanks VJ.

Absolutely none taken...BH was such a guarded, shrewd, & clever individual it's interesting to sort out his quotes & myth from reality. There are differences as his swing evolved especially post accident & it's a shame Kelly was unable to take advantage of today's swing analysis sotware. VJ took the correct path of using competitive images v "staged", as me thinks Hogan was so dayum good he only revealed what Hogan wanted to reveal. Somethng I find very puzzling is why BH allowed an amateur 8mm film of his swing to be shot at Augusta in '67 while rejecting CBS's request to professionally film it the same week? I've never read BH was at odds with the network, so why would he care unless he felt something might be seen that he wouldn't approve of? Hogan obviously believed his swing was still good enough to win & be put on public display at the Masters. Odd.....

PowerDraw you have the impact circle axis. Rhythm is dead on in my belief about Hogan. The video sequence here with the grids is a "staged" image of Hogan and my research shows that he uses a different pivot sequence during these moments. The pics from Palm Springs are the same.

Hogan's secret is a pivot sequence which ensures low point moving forward. Nicklaus from his instructional video "How I play golf" moves low point forward also. This is also evident in Bobby Jones instructional videos. One of the biggest differences between the above mentioned is the speed at which Hogan's hips turned in the downswing. Through words and in action, Mr. Hogan believed in cranking up the gyroscope! Following Leitz's instructions I pieced together a particular swing in which Hogan rotates his hips a total of 100 degrees in 0.18/sec. It is evident this type of speed is correlated to having the center of mass over an axis of rotation. Great swings start from the ground up and Mr. Kelley eloquently speaks of this in 6-C-0.

Involved in this sequence is also the shallowing of the pane of glass. Mr. Hogan's shallowing of this pane takes place as his weight is shifted to the forward leg during the backswing. Tiger's goes down, just as most, during start down. These motions, coupled with hip slide/hip turn have effect on the relationship between low point/the golf ball and impact vectors.

Every swing is a puzzle. Every shot is a puzzle. Golf instructors, like the ones here on Lynn's corner of cyber space, sometimes just point to the correct piece and sometimes create the piece from scratch. But they do it with passion, sincerity, and honesty for enhancement of an individual's game.

Wow
 

:salut: :salut:

There you have it from the man, his own self!

:salut: :salut:

dude, thanks so much for your response, i have been diligently doing your drills and the move seeing my pivot has always been iffy, the feel is quite different, the feel of post-impact too finish seems so much flatter than accustomed but in my current swing the shaft exited over left shoulder so off plane.

For me, it is pivot training. Although your description is mostly just turn the hips, i must admit that adding zone 2, the arms, really seems to add a hella'uv a wallop!

I was wondering if i could ask you about pitching and chipping using such a pivot motion? I would guess setting up the axis as impact at address?

thanks!

Real Stuff
 

Does it get any better than this, folks? I think not.

:salut:

From his heart, V.J. reveals the Instructor's side of Golf Instruction's two-way street. The other side is the Student's responsibility. And where the Student's desire (and willingness to learn) meets the Instructor's knowledge (and ability to teach) . . .

Magic happens.

Everyone.

Please forgive me - for I am a 4 year old in a world of MIT students. Just wanted to throw out that, I entirely enjoy the discussion - whether I agree, or disagree, or am lost, I really enjoy the in depth conversations.....

I echo Yoda.

Patrick

A couple of questions for VJ
 

VJ,

I have also enjoyed the book very much and I hope it makes its way to a wider audience. I have a couple of questions, if you could be so kind to answer:

1) I think in Chapter 11 (I don't have the book with me) you talk of a "recent multiple winner on the PGA Tour" who does THE MOVE. Is there a reason you can't name him (or the "mystery" analyst who talks about the "fastest rotation on tour")? I'd be interested to know who it is, just to study more sequences and video of the move applied to another swing. My guess is Chad Campbell, but I am not too sure....

2) Like Powerdraw, I would like to hear some ideas about applying the principles of "the secret" to chipping and pitching. In my experimenting, I have found that for chipping, starting with the weight over the left leg seems to work well, and for pitching, doing the "move" without the bump. Any thoughts?

Once again thank you for an entertaining and informative book...to those of you who have not purchased it, I highly recommend it as a thoughtful piece of research and an original work of instruction. It is a privilege to be able to communicate directly with the author via this forum.

Carl Lohren
 

In the book, One Move to Better Golf, Pg 18, Carl Rohren mentioned
"I noticed that when he (Hogan) was about half-way through his
backswing - his hands between the belt and the armpit - his lower
body started moving left. It amazed me that his lower body moved
forward so early, but I could readily see that Hogan couldn't
"Hit from the top" with that kind of action. There was no way the
right side could be brought into play too early with that swing."

My reading for the rest of the book, was that Rohren couldn't make
the move work for him was because he did not believe in axis tilt.
He seemed to work toward a verticle axis at all times?

I was also wondering what the TGM'ers think about this pivot motion?

And the fact that there is a 'slide' of the lowpoint from startup too impact to get to that forward ball location?

My take
 

I think the move is sensational. One of the great things is about TGM is the variety of options available. While some sequences of options are more effective than other sequences, Homer wanted us to know about them all. If this pivot sequence is more effective for you, use it when it works.

For me, that is a cool thing about TGM.

I am sorry Roy,

But may I ask, how did you come up with that conclusion that Ben had 90% of his weight on left leg at start down?

Just curious.

Also, please forgive me, but I do not know whom you refer to - VJ - he might be the best. I do know a certain older man, whom saw Homer (yes, Homer!!!!), and whom player Demeret, Snead, and yes, Hogan (he was on his staff) whom, in his opinion, says Hogan's 'secret' was his cupped left wrist, nothing more.

His opinion, not mine.....

But....his is good enough for me.

:)

Patrick

VJ
I have read your book and loved it. I was immediately drawn to what you were talking about. I took a TGM class with Lynn and Ted up here in NY.
I was pleasantly surprised to see you here on this site as you being here just completes my circle as far as golf swing. Thanks for a wonderful book and a good read to boot.

Tommy

Also...

I meant no disrespect to VJ...I have been out of the loop for a few years. Just wanted to clarify.

Thanks,
Patrick

The most appropriate of titles
 

First off, my great thanks to VJ for writing the book.

Considering this thread started around when my son was born, I'm not surprised I missed it, but I'm sure glad that I had a moment to order the book and video recently.

In a previous post, VJ said:

"Five Lessons now makes perfect sense.....at least for me."

And I could not agree more! Me too. As a life long student of the game, I've studied Hogan's Five Lessons with complete focus on trying to make his move, but could never quite get it. Over the years, I've had times where I could feel the things Hogan described, but never the whole package.

Having just read the book and watched the video, I went out this morning and hit a bucket. Mind you, I've had very little time for golf in the last 18 months, so the few rounds I've played have been less than ideal.

Right away I knew "The Final Missing Piece" was dead on correct. I have never felt PP#4 load so solidly, or the swinger's throw out so effortlessly.

For reasons VJ describes in the book, I too was prone to the push. I've always tended to hit a draw, and while I can hit fades on demand, I never felt comfortable.

Today I hit some of the best, most efficient fades I've ever hit. Best of all, the 'sizzle' and 'crack' is back at impact.

Rifle shots.

I think Schlee did the move, but perhaps didn't understand it, or couldn't articulate it. Others were close (Austin, Armour).

Thanks VJ. I can't wait to get this move on tape and see if what I am feeling is as close to Hogan's move as I think it is.

Your work deserves recogntion to say the least. Every copy of 5 Lessons should come with your video!

- EdZ

EdZ

I hope when you do tape the move you can also share it with us & post it...would love to sequence that one.:)

HG