The crux of the matter is that the nature of the power package alignments and the way best to plan the shoulder motion's dynamically moving line per law of the triangle into impact.

You see the impact alignments that Homer Kelley pointed out relate to the primary lever assembly and the right forarm positioning - if you see the power package you have two which are under the constant control of the hands to precise alignments however if you visualise you can see yet another triangle from the left shoulder to the right elbow. By just using the primary lever alignments and right forearm alignments this triangle sits on a plane - this plane can be rotated on a line from the right elbow and the only means of control you have to this triangle is the amount of elbow bend. Elbow bend at fix is an amount in degrees and as such the best you can have a close approximation with the intention of the stationary head allowing enough leeway with the point between the shoulders that the right shoulder thrusts to a point (hip slide) before spining on its axis without significantly affecting the nature of the power package alignments mid stroke. This is fine tuning...

If you move the head out of its constant stationary position...suddenly the whole clubhead orbit and how your alignments operates, changes during the downstroke and becomes out of presise control. You turn a mechanical advantage into a thing that requires compensation. This is on a different radio show altogether...

The stationary head is a wonderful thing. The centered arc is the fundamental bedrock (as Jack Nicklaus might say) of G.O.L.F.

Otherwise just grip it and hope to rip it...:)

Well haven't been in here for a while....guess I have posting to do....sigh....

Ya he was poking fun at me and maybe Brian...(not a big deal tho)...

...

BTW "bowing down"???

Gimme a break....that's really really low. I actually did think u seemed like a good dude after you apologized for that comment there. Dunno where that "bowing down" junk came from.....I'm not like that at all I think FOR MYSELF.

There's not many things that I take more seriously than that BTW.

No way in....heck. It's beautifully simple. Too simple for some ppl I guess. Tell me please how there is a better benchmark than results...

And it doesn't mean u disregard principle or lower your standards either. (although if you have one ideal in mind anything but that would prolly seem like lowering your standards) If that's what you think then you don't understand IMO.

All it means is exactly what the "spaghetti man" says: "Let the Imperatives (how well you hit the ball) dictate the Components."

Not the other way around.

Yesyes.

Manga manga! (tee hee hee)

You see, you just don't understand what a bandaid really is. (no you don't)

And you don't fully grasp what "whatever works best" (for that person) means either.

It's not just some sloppy, defocused "Oh, well I'll just do whatever."

THAT IS A "WHATEVER WORKS."

lol....too easy.

"as long as the hands led the club into the ball"...

Translation: "The ball only knows what the club is doing."

i.e. 3 Imparatives. (however you can do em best, time after time after time)

I mean....now that I think about it u'd think u'd appreciate that I'm a guy who says "whatever works"....I could just as easily be trying to completely shoot down "tripod" and Stationary Head....but that's not what I'm all about.

There's room for all kinds of differences in this game...based on....

"WHATEVER WORKS." (damn right)

U don't understand in the slightest. (what I'm all about)

Yes I guess you were the only one who didn't realize I was trying to lighten up the situation. (for your sake)

I even used an emoticon for God's sake....

Smiley emoticons usually mean "warm and fuzzy" u know....

I guess booger jokes aren't very civil??

Ya I agree. Civil discussion does go a long way.

Anyway tho....

Civility? Brian calls it as he sees it and is pretty blunt sometimes but....how unfair is it really most of the time? Should we all be yes men?

....I like the openness.....sure there's a bit of an edge sometimes (I agree he could work on the delivery to ruffle less feathers while he's making his point) but big deal....

I guess it would all seem "uncivil" if you disagreed or were on the recieving end.

I mean....I know I ain't an "uncivil" guy...

I might be the most civil guy I know actually.

...

BTW....regarding "the dust he does raise".....so long as there is a good point dusty always kicks the crap out of squeaky clean.

Oh yes they are divine! Esp. the big yellow ones!

(thumbs up)

Done without bias by whom?

...

HK doesn't comment on what pros do in TGM as far as I know...

BTW I've already said (prolly more than 2 times) that while HK's opinions obviously DO deserve a large amount of respect and DO hold a substantial amount of weight they are not the END to any argument by any stretch.

If that's what you think then I think you are kidding yourself frankly.

...

BTW no I am not gonna do the said analysis right now. Are you?

That would take forever and would require many sequences and lots of time.

It is the only way tho if we are gonna start tossing pictures around.

Ya it is a hot topic it seems. (important tho no?...look at all the responses even)

Look how easily we got on it this time around.

Yes.

Yes.

"Possible" I of course have no problem with. Even "possible to play world class golf with extreme precision"...no problem with that whatsoever.

Again: "Whatever works (best)."

...

However, it is "correct" (or "perfect" or "always ideal" or "superior" or w/e other rigid words) that I do not like....

...when it is given as the only option I mean.

And in my opinion, "you lose" is incorrect, or (at the very least) very incomplete.

There are so many posts to answer...(and lord knows I can't stop now)...

...

Posts #121 and 122 (almost didn't get through 122 tho...I'm very tired) are typical...and even seem very logical BTW.

That is not "end of story" tho by any means.

You have regurgitated what Homer says and have not addressed WHY it is possible to play such good golf with a head that is not Stationary or not always Stationary between the feet.

To answer quickly, my response (and there are those who know much better than me) would be that anatomical "things" make it reliable (I know that is vague but it's Friday night and I don't really care...think about it for a bit tho)....

...as an aside from the simple logic and Geometry of "Low Point is here and if your head moves Low Point moves and must then move back."

Again that is only my answer and there are those who know much better than me.

...

I'm gonna toss in a "whatever works (best)" here too BTW. (*toss*)

Uh no thanks Justin. (it's Justin right?)

I understand the "compensations" very well thank you. Glad you actually listed them tho. (some ppl say things and don't give any reasoning)

Everyone has compensations in their swings, so live with it. Sometimes, getting rid of or minimising these compensations will improve your ball striking. Sometimes it won't. The student and teacher has to figure it out. For a purpose built machine, it certainly will improve its ball striking. But humans are not machines no matter how much we want it to be.

Are you suggesting that the golf swing hasn't been studied by plenty of book authors and such for many decades? Forgive me for not citing specific examples, it was a general statement. You can use a photo or sequence to argue ANY point whatsoever. That's what I love about TGM, the golfer pictures inside only demonstrate the alignments and not 'this is how ____ does it'.



Not the end, just the best to date IMO.

Other Instructors
 

This thread seems to have run it's course, and I don't want to see us lower our standards here. Please either edit your posts regarding other instructors or delete them.

The ridiculous, false, and slanderous insinuations continue on the other forum, but we have put that entire organization on permanent "ignore". I would ask that friends of LBG do the same.

What's been done is forever behind us now and there is no looking back.

Thanks

Heck no. So....have "they" come to the same conclusions as you seem to have?

No big deal.

Fair enough....I just said for any given golfer you need to look at more than one sequence and more than on shot type and with different clubs in hand. Fair, no?

That is well and good as one facet of things. "How _____ does it" should hold some ground tho.

It IS the best to date.

You are 100% right Bagger.

There's no need to get into this...

I mean....honestly, when certain things are brought up I find it very very hard not to respond...

....but I do realize we're at the point where the thread can turn into to a crap-throwing contest. (or at least a pointless argument that has no place on a forum dedicated to golf instruction)

And frankly I feel like I should respond to those last few posts (and can easily) but I will refrain.

I'd rather talk about golf than shift the topic to something else anyway.

Birdie_man,

What do U use?

Stationary or not?

Can U do both? And if so, pls tell what U think of them. Benefits and so forth

My conclusion is, all the analysis done in the past still has us debating the subject.


Too often tho the talent aspect is not given enough weight.

:salut:


One last thing, would you agree that Canadian beer rulez!:)

:occasion:


(sorry Bam, couldn't resist)

Canada has good beer. Sounds pretty good actually, I think I'll head to the fridge. :)

Which Canadian beer is good? How about Moosehead?

I'm all for a good Canadian beer, but let's move that discussion to the lounge. Sorry for getting us off track :)

Stationary Head vs Still Head?
 

First of all, as a Novice and a 100% believer in TGM, I would like to report my right forearm is functioned so well that a 6-iron club head speed achieved 89-92 mph with around 180 yards. It is not heard before the magic of right forearm as so many pros taught using left shoulder; left arm to bring the club back and forward.

It is the book and Yoda let me know so many seem as if golf tips really don’t work. For example, take the club slow and low; swing along the target; keep the club face square to the target line as long as possible; return the club to the back of the ball; cocking of your wrists for power; don’t use your hands in golf; strong grip to cure slice etc etc…IMHO, that is really those tips made a potential good golfer to become a hacker.

Now, as I have visited TGM related web sites for one year, day and night, I learnt so much and saved so many materials. In fact, I had printed out a photo showing two highly respected G.S.E.D. smiling faces taken at a golf school. I guess that will be the last one since seem as if disagreement on some points of the book. Then, Band-Aid; Kool-Aid…Is there any first-aid to reunion the TGM family?

Back to the point, I came across a web site with information regarding pro and con of head movement and still head.

://coachesinfo.com/category/golf/58

After I read that many times and correlated back to this argument, I come to my conclusion as follows;-

As my uncertain understanding, I always think that 3 essentials and 3 imperatives are concerning prior to impact and follow-through (correct me if I am wrong).

As per Homer’s Notes put forwarded by Chuck:
The Physics of Rotation - The body acts like a rotor. Any rotating mass will make every effort to move on plane and on line. You must tilt the axis in the downstroke to bring the shoulder down plane. I.e.; leave the head still and move the bottom of the spine to create the 2nd axis tilt, sliding the hips.

I got 2 words to check with the dictionary: Stationary and Still
Sorry for wasting your time if you don’t understand me coz of poor English as a Chinese.:salut:

I don't know that what I use is overly important but I can put er down for the record...

I use a "between shoulders" Pivot Center....i.e. head moves to my right slightly.

Depending on the club or shot I'll setup with it in different places. As of now, pretty much always back of center with driver and most longer shots. Wedges etc. I setup with weight on the left side so my head will even be forward of center sometimes....it's never Stationary tho. (for Non-Pivot Strokes it would be actually....putts, chips)

As for benefits I'm not gonna get into that. U guys know I'm partial to a "base of neck Pivot center" by now so I'm not gonna go saying it's longer or more natural or etc. etc.

I think it's good to experiment for yourself and see what works best over some time. That will vary from player to player.

...

Also, I've hit it good using both....I just do better with a non-Stationary Head (which is the most important point)....also, I find it more natural for me and more in line with what I DO naturally.

Esp. with long clubs. (but not limited to them)

Oh ya that's a part of it for sure. U gotta weigh in technique too tho. These guys rose to the top for a reason. On this one, the answer prolly is somewhere in the middle I realize.....I mean, I'm not gonna say talent doesn't do anything.

The best argument from what I can see still has to be what works best for you.

O ya ur from the north country too eh....

Yes....yes beer is great.

Sadly allllll I can drink these days is BUD....I have developed some allergies over the past few years or w/e...wheat being one of em. (BUD is made from rice)

Man.....when I found out I could still drink BUD tho....I'll tell ya it was like being given a second chance at LIFE!! (I'll tells ya I will)

Hehe...;)

Birdie - do you swivel your chin ala Snead/Nicklaus? If not, experiment with this as your first move. You may find this makes it significantly easier to maintain a steady head, while still making a full turn. Should allow you to keep a 'straight stare' at the ball the entire motion.

No I don't EdZ....I will give it a try tho next time I hit the range.

I dunno EdZ....I just don't think it's for me. (at least not in the direction I'm headed right now....at least...)

I think we are missing something here......

Since the debate of stationary head has come to my attention, I have been reading carefully the book and having thoughts of why Mr Kelley preferred a stationary head.

After reading some thread both here and on another place, I have noticed what I think could be the answer. So here is my take.

Golf is not similar to any other sport in the world that has a kind of ball in it. The biggest difference is namely the ball!

In all other sports, and please correct me if I am wrong, the ball is in motion and the player reacts/moves in accordance to it.

In Golf the ball is stationaryand my thoughts are that because of this, Mr Kelley preferred a stationary head to accurately return the clubhead back at the ball.

And then again, I could be wrong..... Bucket where are you?

From what I can gather he simply saw mostly Geometirical benefits. Or at least gave them the most weight. (from what I can gather anyway)

i.e. "the stationary post does not 'sway' or 'bob'"

Upper spine still versus Head Still
 

EDZ, (And anyone else)
Since I haven't followed this thread throughout- I'd like someone to verify that one of the primary debates here is whether the head should stay still or the spine stay still and the head turns somewhat around the spine.

If that is the case then we would have:
1) The head does not turn or rotate at all- and the head stays still- and the spine stays still
2) The head rotates on the backswing and the head stays still - so that the base of the neck spine (Cervical) in that scenario has moved towards the target.
3) The head rotates on the backswing and the Cervical spine stays still so the head rotates around to the right on the backswing.
4) The head is pre-rotated- so that again the cervical spine and the head stay still.

There may be more options as I didn't put a lot of thought into this- but maybe others could add to it.

So both views have a stationary center at the top of the tripod- correct? , One has a stationary head with it and one has a rotating head with it.

Here's another question for Birdie Man or others- if you could pre-rotate your head to your desired top of the backswing location before you take the club away, then this would give you a still head and a stationary Cervical Spine- what would be the advantage to letting it move versus pre-setting it?

Those that favor head still- would within that context also be having a stationary cervical spine- correct? So the only difference is one is letting the head rotate and one is not letting the head rotate- and a pre-rotation would unify both camps-correct?

Finally, is there or has there been a perception that a centered spine would have a body "shape" that would show the back leaning away from the target at the top? Why would that be if the only difference is the amount of head rotation?

To clarify and summarize- via at least one previous post on this thread- you'll realize that I'm somewhat neutral on this "debate"- so the only agenda I have is learning more about the golf swing. And again, although I think I know the answers to my questions- I would just like Birdie Man or others who have been involved in this thread to confirm if I understand the issues or if I need some help in understanding them. I know I've got quite a few questions here and some of them repeat but would appreciate the appropriate feedback to confirm where I am on this.
Thanks,
Mike O.

My main point regarding using a swivel of the chin was to highlight the key reason that most people move their head. This simple address move has a number of very positive benefits to the motion, the most important of which is that it makes it significantly easier to maintain a dead still center. Additionally, it is very useful in preventing the right shoulder from going 'out' during the startdown - a very good way to help prevent roundhousing.

Is that the key reason tho?

The shoulder/chin 'collision' forces one to move the entire body away from the target and/or dip to continue the backswing shoulder turn - a common problem. Chin position can have a huge impact.

A swivel of the chin can help prevent this, as well as act as a 'backstop' for ensuring a complete turn.

Flexibility and/or lack thereof, is certainly a factor as well.

I don't entirely know....but something's telling me there must be reasons more "key" than that.

Seems those things could influence it...(although I'm a pretty flexible guy)...

I think there must be other factors.

I'm thinkin anatomy. (for one anyway)

For the record I'm not so sure about Serg anymore.

I did find a few driver sequences on Redgoat's site where his head sways and bobs.

It would take more study tho of different sequences, shots, and clubs in hand for me to get an idea of what he does.

Play It Again, Sam
 

At the considerable risk of sounding like a broken record, I suggest the following:

1. Set your Head (at Fix) where you want it to be at Impact.

2. Do your dead-level best during the Stroke to keep it there.

If your Head moves...

It moves.

If you can reduce that movement, please...

Do it.

If you cannot...

Then learn to live with it.

And work even harder on your Short Game.

:)

"If golfer have 5 mistakes in motion, golfer better have 5 compensations that golfer execute all time at same time." - Ancient Wisdom :) :)

Lynn: Cool that you have that easygoing approach when your preferences are not met. My POV tho is that I just don't know that a little head movement is worth worrying about in the first place. (or even a bad thing at all)

Just my POV.

comdpa: You say mistakes....I say "mistakes."

I would like to know what a 'little head movement' amounts to in inches?

The smallest amount possible for you, whatever that would be.

This thread turned out to be a hot potato. I choose to start it under 7th edition changes and the reason was the additional text under 2H

: "The important thing is that the true Swing Center for ALL COMPONENTS is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationay Head and the other in the ground, precisely between the feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time".

When I translate the underlined, you can setup with the head on different places. Lynn recommends to start from impact fix and let it stay there which sounds very sound/healthy. But thats an option, you could have it whereever you want but then leave it there and see what result you will get.

The debate about the SH will continue and trust me, there will always be different opinions on it. Try and Choose whats best for you.

Now, what I would like to know is why Mr.Kelley preferred the SH. I tried a few posts ago. Why has this additional text been put in?

If I translate it, then the pin will go right through the head, which means that it can rotate ( ala Nicklaus), as in 1L#2, which will make it easier to fulfill 1L#1, and as I posted earlier, you can always adjust your setup to obtain the SH.

Some observations:

1. It is possible for the top of the Swing Center Hinge Pin to be located anywhere -- extreme left, extreme right, extreme forward, extreme back, and anywhere in between -- with the bottom of the hinge pin precisely between the feet. Therefore, the concept of the Swing Center Hinge Pin seeks only a stationary head but does not mandate that the head be in any particular location.

2. Since the head can be located anywhere, the Swing Center Hinge Pin is neither the spine nor any other actual body part. The Swing Center Hinge Pin is imaginary - a concept.

3. The concept of a Swing Center Hinge Pin must allow for the actual anatomical structure, physical capacity and psychological needs of the individual executing the movement.

Locating the Pivot Center Hinge Pin
 

I agree (and have stated several times in posts) that it is not mandatory for the player to locate the Head -- either at Address or at Impact -- "precisely between the feet" in order to establish a Pivot Center. However, having located the Head (and thus establishing the Pivot Center), it is important that its position be maintained.

Personally, I visualize the Pivot Center Hinge Pin as being perpendicular to the ground, regardless of Head position. Thus, the Hinge Pin would fall "precisely between the feet" only if the Head were so located.

2 or 3. (DUE to rotating around "base of neck" Pivot Center)

And yes I believe it is a fairly distinct difference. (I'm not neccessarily saying performance-wise...but prolly that too for a good amount of people)

Starting location at Address I think can (and IMHO prolly should) vary too.

Personally,

As a small apprentice point of view.

There are 2 points i like to say.

1)Stationary head of course is the Uncompensated Version of the pivot, As long as the width caused by the bent right wrist, shoulder height position during impact head position is constant, its a more or less "perfect" impact.

2) I feel, the head a shy behind the center , swivels, and thus slight bobbing is more biomechanical and comfort, ie the head bending forward instead of proudly straight, bend forward spine, other things like trying to coil the torso, the concious or unconcious need to feel positive weight and momentum transfer, such and such, either can be merely a matter of what you want to feel. Most of this type of head position will in evitably need to bob slightly to the correct impact alignments for a solid impact, or make other compensation. But it does not mean its wrong. alot of great legends does that.

And I think its an acceptable preference and compensation. though I feel its still compensating. you do not need to do that as the less movement in golf is efficiency.

Just my tiny 2 cents.

This of course is the Golfing Machine answer. I think there is more to it tho.

We've been through this one already BTW.

Coolcool. I don't think it's just there to accomodate a feel I want to have in my stroke tho.

Assuming we're on the same page, we're talkin about a few inches of head movement here. (if we're still talking about a Centered motion..."base of neck" Center)

I'm usually not aware of or concerned about any head movement unless I stop and really try to monitor it.

So it really feels like nothing to me (err at least not like you describe it or for those reasons)...

If anything, I find it feels athletic. (and I mean the pivot that RESULTS in the head moving...the body position)

Coolcool. You can think what you want.

I don't think it's that simple tho as I've been saying all along.

You say compensation...I say "compensation."

A few inches is the difference between the sweet spot and a shank or even whiff. The difference between compression of the ball and hitting behind the ball. Inches are significant in the golf swing.

That said I think Jim Hardy was onto something when he said those that swing their arms upright (i.e. Watson) would benefit from some weight shift and consequent lateral head movement in the backswing (to give the arms enough time to swing down in the downswing) and those that swing their arms flatter (i.e. Hogan) should keep their weight centered and the head should not move.

As an aside I believe a really upright arm swing plane is less than ideal, but certainly works great for some.

Matt