Im not sure if I quite agree with you Edz, this is something which only recently i've really gotten into my head even though intellectually I knew it before.

The right arms role is to merely stretch out pp3 with extensor action(the stretch), right forearm pickup(the movement), and 'lock in' the plane by tracing its baseline (the point of that stretch) unless your hitting in which case the right arm also powers the downstroke(the movement). Remember hitting or swinging it is always a left arm stroke. The right arm allows control of certain alignments - as the right forearm traces back the plane line it controls the secondary hinge (the one that lifts the arm up and down) and cocking of the left wrist per the magic of the right forearm... it maintains its own impact alignment (right flying wedge) by pushing pp3 going towards the line. However the hinge action of the left arm staying flat on the primary hinge and its swivel joint turning and rolling whilst the left arm makes its motion against that hinge powered either by the pivot or right forearm creating a pressure against it(hint to those that think theres something called right arm swinging - its not happening ever ever!) is entirely a job for the left arm alone to monitor, it is not the right arms job to get involved with trying to monitoring it.

Note I mentioned right arm motion, not right arm action, an important difference.

Oh ok, ill let ya off then...lol:toothy:

Theres something I want to add to this....

The only way to make a hinge action of the clubface is if that swivel (left wrist) is held FLAT through at least from impact to followthrough and in its impact location against the blade of that hinge that the entire left arm is against. Otherwise your clubface control is feel and feel alone !

Edit - there is something else I want to add. Even though the upper left arm is theortically always going to be against that hinge regardless of how 'it is turned or rolled' - The real control is in that left wrist staying flat to the blade of the hinge which is what you monitor - so in actual fact even if the swivel is working is rolling against the flat part of the upper arm in 2k it is still a hinge action because the wrist is against the blade. But before any guys get their hopes up - this is not what 'Ben does'. But if you truely want the left arm to 'work as one' through impact - you'll need to keep it flat also (whatever its location may be) against the hinge at least through impact to followthrough, but it is not at all manditory...just monitor the left wrist to make sure its vertical to its associated plane of whatever hinge action you produce. This could spark off a whole new debate - should acc#3 be a motion made with just the wrist....:)

Fade? That's even batter.

Lynn,

First of all, I think that message was in response to Matthew....he spoke of conforming, etc.

.....

I realize that you didn't say exactly (i.e. to quote you) that "It is flat-out wrong" Lynn.

....and actually, I didn't catch the part where you said the Alignments "may have been intended and for a purpose"....thanks for pointing that out....that helps.

I dunno.....I just get the feeling that you and some people really are very opposed to this more-or-less entirely. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something??

...

You're right....you haven't raised any debate about whether this is about teaching slicers to slice....that is a related, but seperated issue. You're right. (maybe we can address that one later, no?)

The issue is Ben making a swing in that particular video....you are right on that one actually.

...

It has been said....it works for him (apparently)....and apparently it works for some people.

IF (if) Ben can hit straight shots (or slight fades, as it may be) all day long....case closed, as far as I'm concerned- it must be a viable way to swing. Not by Homer's definition of a Hinge Action neccessarily....but a viable way to move the golf ball from point A to B.

...

I have to assume also, that Ben and Brian fully understand how a Hinge Action (the way you teach it Lynn...the way it's described in TGM) works....I also have to assume that they're experimented with it fully. I understand the argument about executing a Hinge Action as a Swivel Action.....I have to assume they do too. They must. Who knows....I could be wrong.

....

That's enough for me really....(unless I've gotten my facts wrong).

...

BTW, I said that I thought Ben's Swivel was "a little strange"....

But then again....I don't like liver and onions much either....my dad likes em.

...

Good topic here.

Teaching Alignment Golf
 

Thank you for your clarifying reply, Birdie. I appreciate it.

Responding to your question...

I teach the Mechanics of Hinge Action and Swivel Action as defined in The Golfing Machine (2-G; 7-10 and 10-10).

What others choose to teach (and do) is their business. Including exaggerating the one (Swivel Action) in order to achieve the other (Hinge Action). Hopefully, they explain to the student the difference between 'Feel and Real' and their use of exaggeration -- a valid technique -- to achieve the ultimate goal. But if they don't, they don't. As I said, it is none of my business.

However, if I am asked in open forum if a certain exaggeration is a standard to be achieved, then that question becomes my business. The Instructor's job is to inform and explain. The Golfing Machine has given me the tools to do so with precision, and I choose that path. Let others do as they wish.

Sincerely, I am not "opposed" to those who choose to do it their 'own way.' Even if that way lies outside the 144 Catalogued Variations of Chapter 10. That is the purpose of the "X" Classification as introduced in 1-K and explained in 10-0.

In the words of Homer Kelley:

"The Star System does not advocate teaching 'unorthodox' procedures but does make provision for them." (10-0)

Bucket's goofy lookin'
 

Ok. . . I was thinking about this whole thing. How about if you forget about the Inclined Plane for a second? Raise the motion up where it's on the Horizontal Basic Plane ala Baseball. If you execute the Swivel with the Right Palm facing the Plane it feels and looks right. But if you over-cook the swivel it just don't work. Try it an see what you think. I don't think you see any baseball player executing this "over-cooked" move.

Tens of Thousands of Employees...One Signature
 

And, just before he retired...

The only man at Boeing whose signature could release a B-47 as fully-inspected and technically ready for sale.

Wow.....that's pretty cool. Didn't know that.

Do you consciously finish swivel or does it just happen?

The prosecution rests its case.

Swivel Consciousness
 

Unless you are among the Gifted Few, KappaRaider, the answer is...

Swivel first consciously according to the Instruction given in The Golfing Machine and in these pages.

Then, let the motion happen subconsciously.

Watch (in The Gallery) the 6bmike video short "Ready To Roll On the Plane" and duplicate my rotational Wrist Motion with a dowel in the FIST of your Left Hand -- NOT a regular Golf Grip.

If you don't KNOW that you are Swiveling...

Assume that you are not.

Because you probably aren't.

Yoda, what should you do if you are unable to finish swivel? In my case, I cannot rotate my left forearm so that my palm faces the sky. I get almost zero movememnt from the handshake position.

Assuming that I hinge correctly, how will having no finish swivel be effecting my ball flight and what might I do to make the best of my situation? I guess at the moment my left wrist just bends earlier than most and maybe so to the elbow.

How To Swivel When You Can't...Or How To Compensate
 

Interesting situation, Nevermind. Let me think on it. Meanwhile, remember that you don't have to Swivel your Left Palm to the sky. It need only Swivel back to the Plane, and that is not nearly so far off the vertical.

As a starting point, make sure you can fully pivot through the shot, turning your left foot more 'open' as need be. As long as your pivot/torso can move through, you can minimize the issue of not having a full swivel. This is an area where many falter due to lack of flexibility or improper lead foot position.

Thanks Edz, that makes sense. Look forward to Yoda's follow up.

In the most recent golf world magazine, AI Chuck Cook analyzes Hogan's swing and indicates his key to accuracy was the left arm moving left of the body quickly after impact. Is this a reference to the finish swivel as outlined in this thread or something else?

tracing
 

I would have to say, "something else". I have not seen the article so take my advice with a grain of salt. From what you've explained, it sounds like tracing the Arc of Approach. Homer said it was an inferior procedure to the tracing of a straight baseline. I think when Homer was asked if one could trace the Arc of Approach, he said, "...sure, but why would you?".

Chuck the cook
 

IMO, Cooks disertation is a little disappointing. Golf World probably edited out all the good stuff :naughty: . Here is his total quote regarding Hogan:

"Hogan's left arm went left so fast after impact that he was able to keep the clubface on the ball longer than anyone else. That's why he had more control than anyone. I watched him hit balls for two days and never miss a shot."

This may sound obvious to Ted, but just for clarity to the others...

The Arc of Approach Delivery Line is covered by the Clubhead, not Traced (point at). The Straight Plane Line is Traced, and this (superior) procedure should produce identical Clubhead motions as the Arc of Approach procedure. So, by Tracing a straight line we produce a curved motion of the clubhead.

very true
 

Well stated, Tong.

The Finish Swivel Of Arjun Atwal
 

Here is a great view of the Finish Swivel of PGA TOUR player Arjun Atwal as he lets loose on his way to a 64 in yesterday's first round of the U.S. Bank Championship in Milwaukee. Note that the Left Wrist has remained Flat and that the back of the Left Hand and the palm of the Right Hand have Snap-Rolled out of the Follow-Through (the Both Arms Straight position) and into their 'parallel to the Plane' conditions for the Finish (2-G and 4-D-0).

It doesn't get any better than this!

Doc . . . Should this "position" be achieved by a player with a Turned Left Hand grip as well?

Finish Swivel vs #2 Imperative
 

Question: In the Finish swivel don't you lose #2 imperative(clubhead lag pressure point)- leading to clubhead blackout? If so, does this mean that there is a ranking of imperatives?
Any help would be appreciated!

what happened to the pictures
 

Interesting thread. The missing pictures would be beneficial, though.

I am reading all 15 pages of this thread for the first time (as a new forum member) and I was wondering whether an over-swivel action that happens during the followthrough phase (from impact to both arms straight position) of the swing is due to insufficient turning of the upper torso. It is my understanding that the biomechanical action of horizontal hinging operates at the level of the left shoulder socket and left upper arm, and doesn't involve any forearm rotary movements operating below left elbow level. For horizontal hinging to happen without any superimposed swivelling action, I suspect that the body has to turn well through the impact zone, so that the arms are essentially kept in front of the rotating torso. If the body turn movement through the impact zone is sluggish (relative to the speed of the arms moving through the impact zone), then I suspect that there will be an additional non-deliberate rotary movement of the left radius over the left ulna during the followthrough phase of the swing (due to the momentum of the moving club) - and this will cause the clubface to face the ground instead of being parallel to the ground in the followthrough phase of the swing. I don't know if that phenomenon happened in Ben Doyle's posted swing photos, but I suspect that it may happen frequently in many golfers who have a relatively sluggish torso rotation through the impact zone.

Jeff.

Sustaining the lag
 

Watching TT today, I noticed that he uses a high followthrough with a bent right wrist that REQUIRES a full, in tempo pivot before allowing the arms to finish behind the left ear. Lag sustained at all times.

See The Video
 

Go to the Gallery. Click on Lynn Blake. then Click on the Swivel video.

For Swingers, probably the most important video in all the Gallery.

Yoda

I just read this very interesting thread from long ago. This may be slightly off the original topic but can I ask you a few questions regarding the vertical plane of the left hand cocking and un cocking and the associated club face alignment.

-When hammering in a truly vertical manner does the club face stay vertical and parallel to the left forearm (assuming it was so aligned at the start)?
-When moving this vertical action to the inclined plane does not the club face stay similarly aligned to the back of the left forearm?
-If so then is the face not laying on the plane of the left arm rather than the turned shoulder plane or the hands plane?

I can see how the left hand bends to the shoulder plane as the player approaches top or end but am confused about the club face alignment in regard to the inclined plane at top or during release swivel or finish swivel too for that matter (back on topic)

Regards
O.B.

Related Planes
 

Please re-read Post #64 above. It should answer your questions, or at least provide the clues you need to 'see' the correct alignments.

In The Golfing Machine, see also (1) the Left Wrist alignment in Photo 9-3-6 and (2) the respective Left Arm and Left Palm relationships to the Inclined Plane in Photo 10-6-B #2.

Remember, the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge is the Vertical Plane of the Perpendicular Left Wristcock Motion (4-B-0/1/2/3). The Plane of the Clubshaft is the Inclined Plane of the Clubhead Orbit. These two are related, but . . . they are not the same.

:)

You must Hinge first, and only then Swivel.


"

QUOTE]

Ok I am lost, is this statement for the backswing or the downswing?

Yoda, my green friend, are you punking me on Aprils fools day?

Post 65 by Daryl contains only a red faced smiley face hitting his head against a wall. An alignment I can often relate to. Also, my version 6 contains no 4 D 2 or 3. This stuff is dense enough already you rascal.

I can however see the photos that you recommended and in them a clear bending of the left wrist to the turned shoulder plane. Previously I would have thought this to be only the "new flat" of a strong single action grip as the left wrist is cocked. Now I am not so sure. Is there something else to be noted there?

I can imagine how the left and right flying wedges can stay intact while the club shaft travels the various planes of motion but I'm wondering if the club face should always be aligned parallel to the vertical plane of the left arm flying wedge? Is that right?

Post Edits
 

Sorry . . . my fingers flew through this post. It should have read Post #64 and 4-B-0-1/2/3.