burner, please.

the discussion was about the most powerful swings, not putting, but if i needed to add some "OOMPH" to a really long putt, i'd move the hips...on the rest i'll defer to the yellow book where both 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 list "Delayed Hip Action" (10-15-B) which says:

"The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn."

and

"...set the stage perfectly for the Hips to initiate the Downstroke Shouder Acceleration."


-hcw

HCW,

I use my right forearm to start the downswing....my hips react to that action making them appear to be moving first....at a full speed swing, the untrained eye can't tell the difference....


DG

dg,
having never had the pleasure of meeting mr. kelley nor having any "GSE" degree i may be going where angels fear to tread but i'll tak a shot and please feel free to correct me if you feel i go astray...i think homer is saying that if you have your elbow in front of your hip then you can get it and the hands further forward before release occurs for any given motion of the hips.

-hcw

DG,
fair enough, but then one also wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you started with the hips, true?...what i'm saying is that given a skilled operator (ie the long distance guys lagster started out talking about) i think hips first will give higher acceleration than forearm first...not necessarily better golf, just higher acceleration and longer distance...

-hcw

hcw,

Great job on these posts! Bottom line is that Pivot Lag is very important in powerful shots. Pivot Lag cannot be FULLY realized as a lower body reaction to upper body movements. You can unwind the shoulders and sling the left arm and get SOME Pivot Lag, but the ultimate is obtained by the hips preceding the shoulders. The most powerful tour players wear steel spikes and twist the hips against the ground.

Just a comment regarding the spikes and the body.

VJ wears softspikes. Last year in one of the tournments, his ball came to rest on the cart path. He took a mid iron (don't remember which one, might have been a 5, he was out about 190 yds or so) and played it as it lied. The announcer pointed out that if he had tried that with steel spikes he would have never been able to do it. Oh, it landed on the green after crossing over the trees and he made a birdie. The announcers originally didn't give him much of a chance on the shot.

Sam Snead, not to shabby of a ball striker, could hit the ball and did in fact play bare foot in practice, out there with the best of them.

The spikes are to help the golfer maintain position and balance. It is not the force up from the ground that is disrupting the position and balance but the the force down, from the shoulders, hips, etc.

There have been numerious golfers who demonstrate hitting golf balls while on thier knees, sitting down, etc.

The body rotation while trying to maintain balance is the key here. That is what the spikes do.

You want to become a better ball striker, practice barefoot or with flat spikeless shoes on. You might be surprised what you can learn about your golf swing and how to harness your bodies motion during the golf swing to maintain position, ALIGNMENTS and BALANCE.

Mr. Kelley thought a Stationary Head was an essential but could be substituted with the shoulders/spine center.

One could make the arguement that spikes help when the ground is not dired, one could make the arguement that on hardpan a golfer might be better off to remove the spikes.

Spikes can reduce power leakage, but the power is not generated from spikes.

That which has rotated to the right on the backswing - in order only to allow the correct positioning of the arms/club at the top - HAS to rotate, or clear, to the left in order for the arms to bring the club down out and through the ball with force generated by the arms.

Spikes are worn to allow the player maximum purchase on the ground where resistance to the downswing force is at its greatest; NOT as some sort of aid to phantom power generation.

Consider, === as the hip plane and / as the clubshaft plane and then explain how the horizontal plane, rotary, shifting of the former can initiate the inclined plane downward motion of the latter.

Burner,

You may have difficulty finding a rear-wheel-drive car that you would want to buy. :)

The rotation of the lower body does 2 things. One, it moves the tailbone closer to the target at impatc than at address (with open hips). This allows continuation of axis tilting and a longer straight line delivery path than otherwise possible. Two, drives torso rotation. The body has to bend to accomodate the rotation of the hips, maintain a steady head and allow translation of lower body turn into torso rotation. This provides momentum to be transferred (in a more correct plane) to the club via throwout during release.

Golfie

I think the point being made about the arms initiating is that the anticipation of the movement of the arms and hands causes the body to "respond". The body can anticipate the movement of the hands and arms and "respond" to them, but still "lead" by moving first. The key isn't whether the arms or pivot move first...the pivot obviously does in all golf strokes. The key is whether you have to think about it or not. Do you think about it when throwing a ball? If you were being attacked by a bear, would you think about it when trying to hit it with a bat and fight it away, or would you try to "throw" the bat into it as hard as possible?

Martee/Burner,

Here's what a couple of pretty good players think.

Hogan - "THE HIPS INITIATE THE DOWNSWING. Starting them first and moving them correctly -- this one action practically MAKES the downswing. It CREATES early speed."

Nicklaus - "The first move down is the replanting of the left heel, which starts a chain reaction upward through the body--it pulls the left knee toward the target, which pulls the right knee toward the target, which pulls the hips around and in turn the torso, shoulders, arms, hands, and club."

Nicklaus - "I get my power from my legs."

Well I am a big fan of Mr. Hogan. I hear what you say he said. I also have seen videos of his swing and him along with many top pro's seem to slide (move) thier hips back before they complete the TOP of the back stroke. In fact if memory serves me correctly, Ralph Mann found this to be a common trait amongst the 100 plus golfers in Swing Like a Pro.

Now I posted a drill that in fact has the hips move first then the club. Now why do you want this? Clearing so their is a path for the arms/hands.

I use a hip slide to start my down stroke. I just don't believe I hit from my feet up and I believe there is enough examples to prove that it doesn't happent that way. The resistance that lower body meets against the ground certainly support a power swing and maybe this is what you and others are calling power generation. I call it stability and solid foundation to work from.

Golfie,

Your post reminds me of the image of the "Twisting T" - the faster the twist, the faster the Right Shoulder fires down plane. This is how Woods does it(at least in 1996).

Martee,

You say, "it doesn't happent that way." Indeed for you and your examples that may be true. But, that statement seems to suggest that there is only one way for "it to happen". There are least two different ways - your's and Hogan's.

I don't think you read my post correctly.

As I said Hogan's hip movement started before the completion of his back stroke, just like the other pro's.

What I don't beleive is that the power is generated from the feet up. The resistance the feet provide aid the body's motion but it doesn't generate the power.

I would be the last to state that there is only one or two ways to make the golf stroke. I don't believe I can count high enough.

There is a great deal of golf instruction, descriptions, etc, especially by the pro's that make statements of how they beleive they do something, but again that doesn't mean that is really happening. But their preception is their reality.

The right shoulder went up the inclined plane because the right arm, backswing motion, took it there - this has nothing to do with lower body movement, rotary or otherwise.

The right shoulder travels back down its inclined plane because the right arm requires, nay compels, it to do so - not because the hips have rotated horizontally or in response to any phantom ground generated force.

Hogan (and other pros) DO NOT START HIPS MOVING WHILE THE CLUB IS STILL GOING BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The club goes back (loads) BECAUSE THE HIPS start.

:o

burner,
set up the exercise i described earlier with the club at shoulder height...with the club all the way back, turn just your hips and watch how the shaft moves "downplane" toward the imaginary shoulder level ball...now incline the plane by bending at the waist and then turn your hips back and watch the shaft and your trail shoulder move back "upplane"...the "secret" is that your hips aren't horizontal to the ground during a golf stroke.

-hcw

By "HIPS MOVING" and "HIPS start", I hope you mean turning rather than laterally moving.

Nicklaus - "My lower body starts forward while the club is still going back."

Moving laterally to the left while the club is still going back will load the shaft.

I referred to the horizontal plane of the hips and inclined plane of the lever assembly only for the sake of simplicity of expression.

In reality, the only parts of the, so called, "hips" that move are where the head of each Femur is located in the socket at the base of the pelvic girdle.

Movement of those parts does not, in itself, cause any movement of the arms per se - it merely alters the structure, by Axis Tilt, of the entire assembly: this being a necessary pre-cursor to, not a cause of, the arms swinging the club down, out and through impact.

"Movement of those parts does not, in itself, cause any movement of the arms per se - it merely alters the structure, by Axis Tilt, of the entire assembly: this being a necessary pre-cursor to, not a cause of, the arms swinging the club down, out and through impact."

The rotating hips CAUSE the Right Shoulder, IF HELD BACK, to move downward.

I will just jump in and say, there are many ways to load the club. Not everyone loads at the top, which is what you are describing I believe.

And we shouldn't probably confuse "which part moves first" with "where does most of the power come from?".

For example, Yoda's first move is a lateral shift of the lower body to "take out the slack". But his lower body is not the source of his power. :D

"Not everyone loads at the top, which is what you are describing I believe."

I didn't say everyone does that, only that IF you do that, it WILL load the shaft.

I can't speak for Yoda, but I can speak for myself and I can repeat what Hogan and Nicklaus said - hips move shoulders, shoulders move arms, arms move hands, hands move club.

MJ,

Well said. Pivot Lag anyone?

todd

Rotation and power
 

OK let's test a few things here. The following notions are solely based upon Swinging.

Why would anyone want to take slack out of the machine? Hmmm could it be so that efficient transfer of motion can occur between lower and upper body? The rotation of the lower body can be the driver for upper body rotation. Hopefully everyone understood my previous rear wheel drive comment in this thread. Lower body rotation is the source of power for almost all tour pros. Observe the relative openness of hips to shoulders at impact. Note the relative openness of torso to the target line. Edit: Do not be fooled by the relatively square impact shoulders. End edit . And if anyone believes that upper body effort produces this effect, think of the 60s dance craze "The Twist". In a slight modification, stretch your arms out and rotate them horizontally. Note the tendency for opposite spin of the hips.

Just because the lower body feels stable does not mean that it is not a primary power source. In fact it should feel exactly the as the Pivot must be completely trained and absolutely controlled. Proper technique is what allows a controlled (and seemingly effortless) lower body rotation to propel the ball a long way.


Golfie

As with Hogan's right knee move - when you take the 'slack' out, you have in a very real way "lengthened" the lever - in fact at both arms straight I can often literally feel the 'full line' of the train - from my right foot, all the way through my body, to impact. Supporting impact along the 'entire' train. A good drill is to move from impact fix to the finish with 'high hands' - trying to get your hands as far away from your right ankle as you can, such that you have a bit of 'Saturday Night Fever' - a diagonal line from your hands to your right ankle.

Choo, chooo...... all aboard! Drive that train - from the ground up, just like a pitcher does.

MBCpro said, "Pivot Lag anyone?"

Precisely, the first link in what Hogan called "the chain action".

Golfie/Ed,

Yes, why take up slack unless the tautness is needed for some reason. Now just what could that reason be? Let's see what Hogan says - "he(the golfer) wants the mid-section of his body to be tightened up. As the hips turn back to the left, this turning motion increases their tension, IT IS THIS INCREASED TENSION THAT UNWINDS THE UPPER PART OF THE BODY." The caps are by Hogan, not me.

I really cannot take seriously all this stuff regarding tension of the lower body causing the upper body to move and am greatly surprised that, in these enlightened times, anyone else does.

It is possible for most half fit guys to turn their shoulders back through 90* without moving their hips from a line parallel to the target line. You telling me that because I have not moved my hips in order to create tension with my upper body that I cannot get my shoulders back to, and beyond, the point from which I started? If not, what the bejabbers are you telling me?

It is also possible to make a backswing with the hips wide open and still get your lead shoulder behind the ball. Tension - what tension?

Furthermore, what happens when this fictitious tension is alleviated? Does your upper body react like a spring and leap, involuntarily and only by relief from tension, into action. Damn right it doesn't. Try it.

As for Baseball Pitchers; their totally ridiculous leg in the air starting posture is just that - ridiculous; showy but ineffectual. And, before you all pile into this Limey and ask what I know about Baseball I should tell you that I have spent a lifetime playing Cricket where throwing the ball fast, flat and accurately over distances of up to 75 yards is a regular feature of the game. Curiously, I always managed it without waving my front foot in the air to initiate the process.

The Pitcher extends his arm at 90* to his starting position - shoulders square to the batter - before again pivotting his upper body back to starting point only to facilitate the catapulting motion of his arm, against his bodily resistance, to the point where he releases the ball.

As in golf, the rotational motions of the hips, shoulders et al are merely means by which the arms are conveyed to the starting point of their intended function - the far end of the swing/throw - before they reverse the process in order to allow the arms to catapult/swing, forwards/down and out and propel the baseball/clubhead at its intended target.

Golfer's Flail
 

Burner,

Assuming that you are a Swinger, could you tell me what you think powers your golfers flail? Please be specific about the muscles involved.

Golfie

Ouch.
The rules of baseball requires the back foot to have contact to what is called a “rubber,” a rectangled shaped hard slab of rubber on a small hill called a mound. A pitcher does this by standing his shoulders perpendicular to the batter, not have them parallel like in cricket which is a running throw. A pitcher must make a stride - a forward motion - down and off the “rubber.” In order to make this slide off and down the hill or the mound, the front leg must lift and step forward. This becomes a weight transfer, what baseball players call “putting the hip into the pitch.” The pitchers shoulders do become square to the batter after the front leg lands after the stride. The front leg movement, the pitcher’s stride, is the weight transfer, pivot and power package of the pitch. A good pitcher does not throw flat long throws. 60 feet 6 inches. The pitch will move downward from the top of a high hand release, the wrist snap puts a spin on the ball and if well executed will “break” off its path a few inches from the batters whirling bat. Strike one!

To clarify, my mention of the pitcher was in regards to the 'brace' of the right leg, and its drive, or support of drive, in the throw.

Look at batters
 

By the way, since we are talking about pitchers...how about we mention batters!

Batters do not turn their shoulders 90 degrees! Yet they generate a lot of power with their bats.

How do they do that? :D

Having watched frame be frame video of Mark McGuire hitting a ball, the source of his power was pretty clear. He had a ton of "lag" in his bat and his hands were out in front of his "bat-head".

Is this still the physics thread? :shock:

Re: Look at batters
 

Not to mention McGuire and other great batters exhibit the right arm flying wedge.

Re: Look at batters
 

Trigolt,

I'm sure that home run hitters have 90 degrees of shoulder rotation prior to impact - check out Barry Bonds:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/bonds/flash.htm

It's just a different 90 degrees. :)

Lag is technique and the answer to "how do I get seemingly effortless - relative to hackers - power." It is not what powers the golf swing. It is what makes a swing powerful.

Golfie

A batter, like Lynn's golf stroke, just needs to complete the turn of the RIGHT shoulder and use its thrust to delivery the power package. The left just goes along for the ride. RH batter references.

"I really cannot take seriously all this stuff regarding TENSION OF THE LOWER BODY causing the upper body to move and am greatly surprised that, in these enlightened times, anyone else does."

Burner,

The tension which tugs the Shoulders into action is in the MID BODY.

Hogan's words - "he(the golfer) wants the mid-section of his body to be tightened up."

Here is Hogan doing a slo-mo demo of this "stuff", which you don't take seriously -

http://www.megspace.com/sports/moeto...demo_clip.html

This is a small bite of a video with sound in which Hogan is showing and telling how the hip turn initiates the shoulder thrust because of this "tension connection" between the hips and the shoulders.

MJ,

I hear you; and I see Hogan, in slow mo' with the full range of clubs.

Mid-body tension does not do anything other than cause discomfort. Like I said earlier, if you create tension and then relax there is no generation of force or initiation of movement; just relief from tension.

The musculature that is contracted in powering the backswing merely relaxes once that motion is completed and further effort in that direction is no longer needed; their opposing equivalents then contract in order to power the forward swing.

Muscles create tension (contract) to do their work. Release of that tension, slackening and thus restoring the muscle to its pre-stressed length, has no elastic or propelling effect.

Re: Golfer's Flail
 

Golfie,

Not ducking the question but to answer it in full would merely diversify and prolong the argument; from which original we have already strayed afar.

Suffice it to say that the flail can, more than adequately, be powered without any hip or upper body rotation at all, be it by hitting or swinging.

Swinging: take a club in your left hand and, without rotating your hips or trunk, extend it as far back as you can. Now swing the assembly through the imaginary ball and see how much speed you have got and how you are compelled to allow the body to repond to the swinging arm in order for the motion to be completed. Listen for the "swoosh".

Repeat the process but with backswing torso rotation. Do you hear any difference in "swoosh" sound? No, I thought not, so what does that tell you?

Performing the same motions (Hitting) with your right arm only and your experience will be no different.

Structure and a return to physics
 

Burner,

Of course, in your example, I concede there to be very little difference.

However, the single arm example excludes (without massive strength) the structural possibilities that having two hands on the club bring to bear. If, for instance, the left arm were rigidly attached to the sholder, there would be a large difference in flailing action as there would be much more angular momentum (from the turning body) driving the flail.

Any questions? :wink:
Golfie

Re: Structure and a return to physics
 

Yup! No, a statement more than a question.

If the left arm was rigidly attached to the shoulder it would not be a flail - more a spoke attached to a spindle.

And, whats more, the spoke and spindle in human terms is not capable of generating anywhere near the clubhead speed that a flail could.