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I just read Mr. Erickson's comments on Hitting vs. Swinging in reference to Mr. Knudsen...

Mr. Erickson looks at hitting vs. swinging the same way as does MORAD.

Hitting = CP
Swinging = CF

I'm not saying right, wrong, indifferent. Not my place...

I'm here to learn Homer Kelley's version of TGM, and find it confusing when debates are centered around other methods that really don't apply to my copy of The Golfing Machine.

This is THE PLACE to learn and understand Mr. Kelley's work by THE MASTER of it's ideals. If you want to learn others teaching methods there are websites to do so.

Just my opinion.

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeddyIrons (Post 69810)

I've read this too about Knudson's passive hands. I've read Lag Erickson's point of view on this which is that firing the hands requires special training for most golfers. Passive hands is easier to master for the average golfer who does not have time to train for this, and perhaps this is who Knudson was targetting in his book. Knudson based a lot of his swing on Hogan who clearly stated that he wished he had 3 right hands - certainly sounds like a non-passive action there. If you fire your hands then you need a very strong pivot post-impact to prevent a hook. Hudson clearly swings hard left and not out to right field, which is the tendancy with the right arm hitting action.

I think the hands can be passive or they can be trained to fire. I don't wish to try to interpret another golfer's training or intentions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I think, however, that when you swing on a tighter circle and you fire the hands from the last parallel position before impact, you are ensuring that you have acceleration into impact, and hence lag pressure.

Lag explains this much better than I of course and his posts on the matter can be found on other forums.

Teddy

It makes sense to me that some pro's who possessed educated hands would teach Pivot to Hands or passive hands to the new golfer. Proper hand motion, swinging the Hands instead of the club head etc was not well enough understood back then or now for that matter. But to keep this train on the Knudson rails, in your opinion, how would Knudson "fire" his hands?

Its an interesting question and Ill tell you why I ask. I remember a friend of mine who had a summer long series of group lessons with George at the National Golf Club just north of Toronto. He was a pretty good golfer and was in with some beginners. By the end of the summer George had them all hitting beautiful , perfect little mid irons with a three quarter swing. They didnt go very far but they were sweet. My friend was somewhat frustrated that the lessons never progressed past this shot. It was a swing that George didnt use himself, even when doing demonstrations for the class and neither did my friend when he was playing for score. He'd bring it out once in a while when he was goofing around. It was a often a 130 yard seven iron floater. George could get most any person hitting it and accurately. Perhaps there was more to be had from George's lessons after many many reps or perhaps there was a missing bridge between Pivot to Hands and educated Hands?

George wrote a beautiful book which is largely about the Pivot. Jack in his book called the hands the "great destroyers". Homers book is about the Hands and their correct usage. Its not a "handsy" method but it is about the Hands. Homer "wrote the book" on Hands.

Quote:

6-B-2-0 THE SECOND POWER ACCUMULATOR When the Left Wrist is Cocked (in excess of the selected Clubshaft-Left Hand Angle (6-B-3) in the Address Fix positions) it forms the Second Power Accumulator. It’s the true Velocity Accumulator because of the shortness of its travel time (during a Maximum Delay Release). Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any – or all – are available to actuate this Assembly. Its “in-line” condition is FULL EXTENSION as determined by the Accumulator #3 requirements – if any. It is the “Downward” (Angle of Attack) Motion per 2-C-0 and 2-N-1.

Also, Jorgensen's study ("The Physics of Golf"), tested the use of active wrists with his double pendulum model and concluded that the procedure reduces Clubhead speed unless a Golfer is Skilled enough to actuate them within 70 milliseconds of Impact. He concludes that if it's possible, it's effectiveness is only marginal and lacks the speed increase of a delayed release procedure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 69861)

I don't think that HK was against using the Wrists. He did say that the muscles of the Forearms "Are Available" to uncock the Left Wrist. On the other hand, references about using the procedure are nonexistent in the book.

Quote:
6-B-2-0 THE SECOND POWER ACCUMULATOR When the Left Wrist is Cocked (in excess of the selected Clubshaft-Left Hand Angle (6-B-3) in the Address Fix positions) it forms the Second Power Accumulator. It’s the true Velocity Accumulator because of the shortness of its travel time (during a Maximum Delay Release). Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any – or all – are available to actuate this Assembly. Its “in-line” condition is FULL EXTENSION as determined by the Accumulator #3 requirements – if any. It is the “Downward” (Angle of Attack) Motion per 2-C-0 and 2-N-1.

Also, Jorgensen's study ("The Physics of Golf"), tested the use of active wrists with his double pendulum model and concluded that the procedure reduces Clubhead speed unless a Golfer is Skilled enough to actuate them within 70 milliseconds of Impact. He concludes that if it's possible, it's effectiveness is only marginal and lacks the speed increase of a delayed release procedure.

Nice. We're getting way off topic but nice. There are some references to using the Hands and Wrists "actively" to find them you must combine several of the 10-20 Release Triggers that relate to the Hands or Wrists with the Non Automatic Power Package Releases of 10-24.

Homer listed the 10-20 (RELEASE) TRIGGER TYPES in a manner which corresponded approximately to their Release Point 11-24, Full Sweep, Random Sweep, Snap and Flip. See 10-20-A THE HAND THROW, which could be employed in a Non-Automatic (active) manner for a Full Sweep Release. Or 10-20-E WRIST THROW. Which when done in a 10-24-D Non-Automatic Snap Release manner would produce a very late Snap release point, a smaller pulley wheel (Endless Belt Analogy) for added power.

So Homer's Hands, I guess, arent necessarily "passive" in all of the several trillion effective stroke patterns he catalogued and he and Prof Jorgensons would appear to be in conflict about the effectiveness of an "active wrists release". If I read your quote above correctly. Also Homer does in 10-20-0 suggest the existence of non listed Trigger Types, "X" classifications which might include Lags "firing" hands, maybe? I Dunno.

I only said that HK wasn't against using them. Actually, he only said that they "Are Available". Your Putter "is available" it hit a Tee Shot too.

I'm sure he was referring to scooping the ball out of the cup or some such similar situations. :laughing9