The Pictures in Post #20 indicate the Entire Downstroke.




:occasion:

Photo 10-13-D #2: The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane and Neither is the Flat Left Wrist. This is because the Shoulders and Arms are Turned to the Plane. But the Clubshaft is On Plane.

This is about Release Motions and concerns the Left Arm Wedge Location and Angle where Release is Concerned.

You can't win tournaments if you bend the delivery line. I'm serious. You don't have a problem with bending the plane line. But do you know what you do that solves the problem?

In the above paragraph, you said that "Cocking and Uncocking is along the Inclined Plane". That's exactly as it should be except replace "Plane" with "Delivery Line".

So, for swingers that have swiveled to plane on the backstroke, you would also agree that if your Left Arm pointed inside the Plane Line (Left Arm Wedge) then you need to Bend your Left Wrist so that your Clubshaft will be on plane when you Cock and Uncock?

Hitters using a Single wrist action downstroke don't have this problem. .......... But a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release is a mind numbing experience to visualize and execute without a Plane Board for training. AND, you can't "Swing" a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release (not without other problems). It requires Right Arm Thrust down the Angle of Approach. ..........Hmm? Maybe that's the simplest procedure of all. ...... Imagine the complexity of holding the left wrist vertical and yet keeping the shaft on plane during release.


I say that Cocking and Uncocking should be executed on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge with a Flat Left Wrist, as does TGM. I also say that the TSP simplifies the procedure because the flat left wrist exists throughout the swing. I also say that for swingers not using the TSP, need a more complex way of uncocking on plane so as not to bend the delivery line during the first half of the release sequence. And I say that Bending the Left wrist is the "more complex way". I also say that it's perfectly suitable and has been adopted and proven in competition.


I keep a bottle of Advil on my desk.


I don't think that Hitters have this same problem. As long as a Hitter thrusts the right forearm down the Angle of Approach, and uses a Single Wrist Action Downstroke, bending the delivery line shouldn't be an issue once a level of proficiency is reached. In this regard, Hitting is a superior procedure because no matter what the plane angle, right forearm thrust uncocks the flat left wrist On Plane. I hate to admit it.

More trade-offs. Hit or Swing.

Photo 10-13-D #2 clearly shows the Left Arm above plane and the Left Hand and club shaft laying flat to the Inclined Plane. A slight cup in the wrist, consistent with the cup associated with vertical left wrist cocking given a 10-2-B Strong Single Action Grip. Flat is not literally flat but geometrically flat. Search function.



Yes, I do. I trace a straight line base line , Arc of Approach or cover the Angle of Approach. I also attach some lasers to both ends of a club and see whats going on. I can shift and have pretty straight lines no problem. It isnt that hard.

Or is this bend just the plane of the left wrist cock? Try cocking a 10-2-B vertically with your left arm held straight in front of you. Cups right? It must.

I admit there is some fog around the geometry of the plane of the left wrist cock and the on plane release motions for me. I do. You cant cock the left wrist vertically along the plane of the left arm flying wedge and be on plane when the left arm isnt on plane, I dont think. But I know from my own experience that you dont need to manipulate the left wrist to do so (which is per Homer a clubface manipulation as opposed to a shaft plane manipulation as you suggest). Nor do you need to zero out #3 and swing on a super steep, what you call a TSP but which looks more like a Left Shoulder Plane to have release motions on plane and straight line base line compliant. This I know from experience although I do get the geometric reason for your assertion.

Is anyone listening to this or is it just you and me? What were we talking about again? After we knock this doozer off I have a few questions about the Angle Of Approach.

Obviously, we failed to change each others mind. Perhaps if I were more knowledgeable or used video I could have explained my thoughts more clearly. :)

I'm convinced that Uncocking and Rolling on the same delivery Line is a problem for most Golfers. I thought that Uncocking off-plane was an easy point to illustrate. Once one learns to Uncock on plane, he needs to understand how to roll on the same delivery line. That's more difficult to illustrate and explain even though it seems completely clear to me.

I think that Hitters and Swingers have different Problems and maybe this is one that Hitters don't have.

I studied Video's today of Hogans swivel. I clearly see a Bent Left Wrist during the downstroke and into release. It seems his swivel is a mechanism that Transforms an on plane left wrist into a Vertical Left Wrist for release and impact. Uncocking is on a Vertical Plane of motion and he uses a simultaneous release.


I observed the swivel in short and long shots. When we see his left wrist arch, it is the arching that creates the vertical left wrist. So, the swivel transformed his standard wrist action downstroke to single wrist action for release and impact so that bending the delivery line wasn't an issue. Anyone can use Hogans swivel and experiment themselves and arrive at this same conclusion.

I'm listening.:happy3:

Am curious to see where this goes.

Plane bending must imply some form of steering. Not in the usual golf sense perhaps. But still. Linear forces that partly drive the club away from the ball. Then linear that partly works in another direction than the object they are applied on. Forces to correct the offset created earlier in the stroke. Some work will be done that is counterproctive in a strict geometrical sense in the early part of the downstroke. And some of the linear forces will be "wasted" on bending the plane, which isn't really work in a Newtonian sense and which will not energize the clubhead either.

But maybe there is some good physiological justification for it still.

Some Pics to Ponder
 

Daryl,

Hogan's left wrist looks flat to me prior to release... I tried the bent left wrist at release and I could not get arched fast enough...got flat...but had some over-roll issues... w/ a flat left wrist the clubhead came around the corner nicely on the elbow plane.

Lake

"it came around the corner nicely on the elbow plane" with a Vertical Left Wrist.

I see what you see. The left wrist looks flat. But do you see that the shaft in the first picture isn't on the elbow plane as it is in the last frame? That's not typical Hogan either. Look at the pictures in post #20.

All videos that I reviewed are on You tube. I'm not surprised, given the time period, that so few videos exist. But in "Five Lessons" every illustration shows a bent left wrist during the Downstroke.

Look at his Waggle in "Five Lessons". His waggle is unusual because at the end of his backward waggle his left wrist is vertical. Nobody I've seen waggles that way except BH.

See page 99 and notice his Vertical Left Wrist in illustration #1. First Paragraph, page 101, is his great description of a Simultaneous Release assisted by Arching the Left Wrist. Look at the famous swivel sequence on page 102. The First Illustration having a Bent Left Wrist, the second, a Flat Left Wrist and the fourth illustration is clearly a Vertical Left Wrist. Page 106 illustrates his Downstroke sequence and #2 shows his Bent Left Wrist Downswing.

It appears to me that his swivel transformed an On Plane Left Wrist with Standard Wrist Action to "Single Wrist Action".

The illustration below is not "Time Sequenced". Viewing his video in slow motion reveals that the distance between hand position 1&2 is about 2 inches but between 2&3 as much as 6 inches. So his Left Wrist became Vertical long before Impact.




The following quote is taken from "The Secret" by Martin Davis. It's on the "Ben Hogan" golfclub website. (http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html) 8th paragraph.

Hogan revealed in life magazine that the "secret" involved cupping the left wrist at the top of the back swing and using a weaker left hand grip (thumb more on top of the grip as opposed to on the right side.... Hmm?, with a "weaker left hand grip", Elbow Plane, "Single Wrist Action", what better way to insure the clubface is prohibited from closing to much making the ball go left.

I didn't claim that BH Cupped his left wrist .....Ben Hogan did.

My claim is that while on an Elbow Plane, his cupped Left Wrist, weak grip, and his swivel, combine to transform a Standard Wrist Action to Single Wrist Action and prevented Hogan from "Bending the Delivery Line" because it allowed him a Simultaneous Release. A Simultaneous release won't bend the Delivery Line.

His early release allowed him the space needed to complete the swivel and create a vertical left wrist well prior to impact. Although the Left Wrist for Swingers and Hitters is considered Vertical for Impact, they don't become vertical in the same location before impact.

If one end of the club is pointing at the plane line you're good.

MAYBE . . . IF you don't disrupt #3 in the process . . . see Hogan.