lol stop cheating okie

So how about the right shoulder in all this? (pivot thrust, right/left independence/cooperative issue)

An on plane right shoulder in the downstroke is just as important as an on plane right forearm, don't you think?

How do you incorporate an on plane right shoulder in your downstroke, swinging? Is it simply look, look, look for swingers, or do some use it actively as hitters do, as a brace etc..

Nuke99

You wrote-: "Study 7-3 in depth .. less ability to push with a pitch elbow .. that's correct.. but doesn't mean a swinger have can't PUSH in the bottom of the swing. the missing piece is the dynamic pivot motion, the arm can't move very far ... can they?"

Why would a swinger want to push at the "bottom" if he has an optimized release of PA #4 and PA #2? If those two PAs are optimally released in a sequential manner then the club is traveling at maximum speed during the pre-impact phase of the swing. How can one increase the clubhead speed by applying a push action in the later downswing? If one applies a push action via active release of PA#1 just before the club reaches the delivery position via pressure at PP#3, then the club could be induced to travel erratically because one will have interfered with the natural physics of the release action. Also, if one can induce the left arm to travel faster in the late downswing via active force-pressure at PP#1, then one cannot have performed the pivot action correctly - because an optimized pivot action should easily be able to provide enough power to catapult the left arm into impact at a sufficient speed (enough power to fully release PA #4)

Biomechanic

I don't think that Chris Welch of Xenolink or the researchers at TPI can measure active release of PA #1 at the bottom of the swing (whatever you mean by "bottom"). I believe that a researcher would have to insert muscle probes into the right triceps muscle to measure its degree of active contraction at the "bottom" of the swing to differentiate between active release of PA#1 and passive release of PA#1.

Jeff.

the difference is Power . I know coz i tried. easily lost more than a club.


Push at bottom does not necessary mean 100% with the arm. maybe 50%. It won't work with 100% arm.

Jeff, you wrote:

I see it like this:
Imagine you are in a center of a rotating merry go round.
Your flying wedges are set, horizontal to the ground: your right forearm is on plane of the rotating merry go round).
You are halfway in the downswing.
Your right elbow bent and in a push condition.

If you stay static in this position, your clubhead travels at the angular speed of the merry go round (this is your body power).
And to your point of view, your whole Power Package is static and ready to be fired as a hitter.
If you now drive with your right arm, your clubhead will travel at the angular speed of the merry go round PLUS the speed of the thrust :eyes:

As Biomechanics says:
I confirm from my experience that this is a HUGE difference: a real gain in distance + deadly accuracy.
Really impressive.

The key is to blast the whole power package set in its pushing condition instead of only the left arm.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if your merry go round decelerates before impact, you won't be able to catch up the primary lever assembly with your right arm thrust as it separates from the chest (not a problem in a swing and supposed to work like that), resulting in some kind of strange throwaway feel!

Yodeli - you wrote-:

"If you stay static in this position, your clubhead travels at the angular speed of the merry go round (this is your body power). And to your point of view, your whole Power Package is static and ready to be fired as a hitter.
If you now drive with your right arm, your clubhead will travel at the angular speed of the merry go round PLUS the speed of the thrust."

What you seem to be saying is that the pivot-thrust throws the power package assembly intact at a certain rotational speed and that you can increase the speed of the clubhead by an active release of PA #1.

However, I understand the pivot-thrust as more than a throw of the intact power package assembly down to waist level. I see the pivot-thrust of a swinger as catapulting the left arm off the chest wall so that the left arm travels faster than the pivot thrust (merry-go-round) and then sequentially having the PA#2 release via centrifugal action so that the clubhead travels much faster than both the merry-go-round or the left arm (which is traveling faster than the merry-go-round due to the complete release of PA#4). Under those optimized conditions, I cannot understand how adding right arm thrust (active release of PA #1) can increase clubhead speed.

Jeff.

You Got Me!
 

I am a compulsive eater as well! I am just adhering to the seperate identities expressed in TGM! But you have exposed my lack of research in the realm of what the best actually do! HK even maintained that it was not an easy task to distinguish a hitter from a swinger...and I guess a switter as well! I used to be a enthusiatic observer of the strokes of the top players...not so much any more. I have learned that what I see is not always what is happening. So I capitulate!

Agreed Jeff

What you describe is the correct Swinger action but keep in mind that we are talking about Switting and somewhat playing with fire!

IMO, the subtle difference is that you catapult the intact power package of the chest HAVING the right elbow in a push condition as opposed as
catapulting the left arm only having the right elbow in a pulling condition (pitch).

Yodeli

What get's the right elbow into a push position, rather than a pitch position?

I suspect that it may be due to a non-optimum downswing pivot thrust action.

Here is a swing video of Ben Hogan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

I think that he gets his right elbow into a pitch position due to a "correct" downswing pivot action. Then, when he lets go and completes the downswing (at time point 33 seconds into the video) he fully releases PA #4 so that his left arm swishes across the front of the body.

I suspect that some switters are not using the pivot thrust properly to fully release PA#4 (like Hogan) and that they are only driving the power package down to waist level with their pivot action. Then, they use an active release of PA#1 to drive the left arm forward (to fully release PA#4) - they "hit at the bottom". Biomechanic argues that tour players do this (hit at the bottom) but I don't agree. I would be interested in reading Yoda's opinions on this issue.

Jeff.

Its always interesting reading Hogan stuff and there is always some video at an angle to support some theory made up by the theorist.
He may well have been ..elbow/hands/club earlier but lots of footage later where he is hands/elbow/club