I found it easier to understand hitting down and the low point once using the reference of the clubhead passing the left shoulder.

Prior to this point if I understand it correctly you can in fact be driving down cause the force originates from the body (hands, arms, shoulders). The reference to the ground is artificial, especially if the horizontal reference is not parallel to the power generating force.

I believe this concept is the rationale behind setting up on slopes such that the shoulder follow the slope.

If one agrees that the low point is when the clubhead passes the left shoulder, then one can understand how the clubhead can actually be moving upward yet it still be a motion that is hitting down, maybe not on the ball, but it is a hitting down motion force from the power generator.

I believe that this often adds to the confusion on golfers who haven't reach the low point with the driver but swear they are hitting up.

Low point defined as ??? When the primary lever has reached full extension - Placing the clubhead furthest from the left shoulder ???

I've been doing some visualization of my own through reading these posts. I believe the visualization I have had of "the swing" is what has been inhibiting me from hitting down on the ball.

Up until now I've pictured the cirle of the swing as having the centerline being an imaginary line from the ball straight up through my body(somewhere around my head depending on ball position) AND... the circle's circumference was only tangent to the surface of the ground. Fundamentally I knew I needed to hit down on the ball to get optimal precision and performance but I never visualized what that would require... a sector of the circle being in the ground and the concept of the low point being the left shoulder (i.e. the required center and radius neeed to hit down on the ball!).

Reading, re-reading and absorbing these conversations is providing a whole new visualization of the golf swing and I am a person who is a visual learner (conceptually and in the real world). I have also taken on starting to read the book from the beginning and a lot of things that were foggy to me are now gaining clarity.

My impact bag should arrive this week and I can't wait to practice with it. I'm beginning to experience more "ah-hah's" and it's exciting!!

Thanks to all of you guys,

Michael

Defining Low Point
 

In the geometrically-corect Stroke, the Low Point of the Clubhead Arc occurs when the Stroke Radius -- the Left Arm and Club (Primary Lever Assembly) -- points directly toward the ground. That point is directly opposite the Center of the Arc, i.e., the Left Shoulder. See Sketch 2-K #2.

Are you saying that the Left Shoulder is square or can they be open and still the the low point be the same? In otherwords the lever assembly doesn't need to be perpendicular to the shoulders?

Tick Tock
 

Consider the pendulum of a grandfather clock. It hangs from a hinge pin and operates in a vertical plane. Where it points directly toward the floor is the lowest point of it arc. No matter which way you turn the clock, the low point is always opposite pin.

The Golf Stroke takes place on an Inclined Plane, but the principle is the same.

Guys, I just can't hold myself back on this one...

Doesn't the hinge pin on the grandfather clock move, since the Left Shoulder is clearly moving during the golf stroke?

How does this fact change anything, if at all?

Well it doesn't change the fact that Low Point is still opposite Left Shoulder.

But Left Shoulder is constantly moving!

:confused: :p

Lets discuss!

Good stuff Mike.

There's some more visual stuff in here:

http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/...es.php?gs_id=1
http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfschool/...es.php?gs_id=2
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/for...,down,drive r

Centered Arc
 

The Left Shoulder -- the center of the Clubhead Arc -- does indeed move. But, it does so in its own centered arc, the circumference of the Shoulder Turn around the Spine as its Axis. This satisfies the requirements for a Centered Arc and enables the Line of Compression, i.e., the pressure of the Ball against the Clubface, to be sustained (2-H).

This is why the Stationary Head is so important. It provides a major assurance that the Left Shoulder will return precisely to its Impact Fix location in preparation for Impact.

But this centered arc which you call the Spine -- Tilts! -- during Start Down. Hence the Axis has Tilted even with the Stationary Head.

Does this fact change anything, if at all?

The center of Clubhead Arc is the Left Shoulder.
But the Left Shoulder moves also...
The center of the Left Shoulder arc is the Spine.
But the Spine Tilts...
The story continues...:)

Tilt Talk
 

Yes, the Downstroke Axis Tilt (as initiated by the Hip Turn) does indeed change things.

Ideally, the Stationary Head Location, the Impact degree of Axis Tilt, the Left Shoulder-to-Ball Radius and the On Plane Right Shoulder are established in Section 2 of the Stroke, Impact Fix (7-8 ). The Adjusted Address -- Section 3 -- normally features the same Head location, but much less Tilt, a lower Left Shoulder and a higher Right Shoulder.

Unless the Impact Fix degree of Tilt is restored during the Downstroke, neither the Right Shoulder nor the Left can return to their assigned Impact locations.