Deceleration. Move the Ball a couple of inches on a direct line toward your Right Foot (not back on the plane line). Add a little Hook-Face.

I need a translator
 

I must need either a translator,or a torch so people can see what Im posting,centripetal force?
Kinetic link?
there are diverging forces happening here,all on the one plane...yes no....:scratch:

cf is generated by the pivot. It is on plane. Swinging is all management of cf.

The 3 esentials- Balance, Rhythm and a stationary "head" are essential (they are a rank above imperative) although they are seldom discussed, practiced and even less understood.

There are volumes in the 2 sentence fragments I put above

HB

Even in the TSP Swing where the hands and right shoulder are on plane from the Top, the hands move off plane when Throwout starts as the left shoulder moves off plane. If the hands stayed on the swing plane, the sweet spot would fly out over the ball, unless the shaft was exactly in line with the left forearm, which is virtually impossible, even if the left wrist were totally uncocked at impact instead of level as it should be. After Throwout starts, the hands move farther inside away from the base line as the golfer sees them, because the Left Flying Wedge is moving off plane.

Of course the hands are moving forward after impact(and during impact), but not "down".

Ok, so a Reactive Force Un-cocks the Left Wrist. No big deal. Is that all CF does? Yes, I think so except for some residual forward momentum. And the more you emphasize Velocity over Mass, the more it counts. But that's another subject, and trick.

Time to toughen up. Golf is a Power Game. :)

We don't hit the Ball with CF unless you use a 10-2-D grip to Un-Cock along the Swing Plane. For Swingers, the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock not only "Turns" from Release to Both Arms Straight, but the Primary Lever is Swiveling during this same period.

How On Plane can that be unless the Wedges are aligned at 90 degrees?

So, unless you're using a "Driving Right Forearm" there will always be some off Plane tendency, somewhere along the process. :confused1

So, Whats the Clubhead (or Club) reacting to? Easy. It's reacting to the Left Arm being Blown off the Chest while using a Pivot Stroke or in the case of a non-pivot Stroke, Left Arm Motion. For Pivot Strokes, see Homer Kelleys explanation below. I underlined.

The Kinetic Link.......................................... is Very Important because if for one instantaneous moment the link is lost, lower MOI. Bold by Daryl.

Anytime you Accelerate the Club Longitudinally, you'll earn "Throw-Out" if you're going around in a circle. With a Flat Left Wrist at Release, there's not much of it, just enough to help the #3 Accumulator do the dirty work to "Wallop the BAll" . Now, if you play with a Bent Left Wrist at Release, then Cf is much more significant and the residual momentum is much greater and the #3 Accumulator will passively go along for the Ride.

Watch the Pro's. When you see Super Fast Pivots compared to s-l-o-w-e-r Pivots with the same output power, the Slower Pivot Players are Driving the Right Forearm through Release. Nothing wrong with a Fast Pivot. They're very different Pivots and ground forces.

10 years ago I would have agreed with you. 10 years from today (hopefully sooner) you'll agree with me.

Thank you for your responses.

Thank you Daryl
 

Im still yet to master the right forearm timing ,I have found it a few times and the ball goes so much further,armed with your last post(and a great one at that)I will attempt to attain my optimum mix of r/forearm and cen force,once happy ,i will ingrain it so its there naturally,I really needed to know if it is wise to mix right forearm and how to apply it,your words"down plane" may well be the key.....thank ALL for contributing ....cheers

My opponent shot an 80...
 

...But he still lost 5 holes to 3 with no strokes given! :)

I nailed lots of straight balls yesterday with driver, 3 wood and hybrids but missed some conversions of putts and chips.

And by sliding the ball [i]in a straight line of a couple of inches back toward my right foot I will pick up some "hoopah!" [/I] But the ball is so close to me it feels almost inside the width of the turn of my shoulder! :exclaim:

ICT

My opponent shot an 80...
 

...But he still lost 5 holes to 3 with no strokes given! :)

I nailed lots of straight balls yesterday with driver, 3 wood and hybrids but missed some conversions of putts and chips.

And by sliding the ball in a straight line of a couple of inches back toward my right foot I will pick up some "hoopah!" ] But the ball is so close to me it feels almost inside the width of the turn of my shoulder! :exclaim:

ICT

My opponent shot an 80...
 

...But he still lost 5 holes to 3 with no strokes given! :)

I nailed lots of straight balls yesterday with driver, 3 wood and hybrids but missed some conversions of putts and chips.

And by sliding the ball in a straight line of a couple of inches back toward my right foot I will pick up some "hoopah!" But the ball is so close to me it feels almost inside the width of the turn of my shoulder! :exclaim:

ICT

Hmm, then maybe just move it back. Judge how far away by the Right Forearm Angle of Approach at Impact Fix. It will establish the correct Plane Angle for you Approach. Really cool. So, if your Forearm is on an Elbow Plane the Ball will be a little farther from your Stance Line than if your Forearm is on a Turned Shoulder Plane which located the Plane Line a bit closer to your Stance Line for a Steeper Plane.

Very nice! Thanks
 

Signing out from PLANE Philadelphia!

:golfcart:

ICT

There is SOOO much that should be discussed in this post!

As a start- THINK ABOUT "CF" as the ONLY source of power for the swingers power package. THE ONLY SOURCE OF POWER!!!!!

Maybe we should have another new thread for this discussion?? BUT it is all about "on-plane motion"

HB

It will be the key to the gate of golfing hell if you interpret "down plane" to mean that the right forearm is moving downward at impact! :crybaby:

Do you honestly believe that the hand path lies in the swing plane at impact? :confused1

If so, it will be just as implausible in 10 yrs as it is today and I can only hope newcomers to TGM don't believe what you're writing!

[quote=MizunoJoe;94428]Do you honestly believe that the hand path lies in the swing plane at impact? :confused1

QUOTE]

Pleas explain the plane my hands should be in at impact, how do I monitor this alignment and how is this hand plane taught.
Thanks

HB

Plane Dozens of examples. But no one needs the yellow book to understand that the #3 PP needs to be On Plane at Impact. I have no idea what you're thinking. It could help if you explain your concept of "the Swing Plane".


Well, if both Planes pass through the "Lag Pressure Point" .....then pick a Plane. Either one, the Hands are On Plane


I don't know, what do ya think Homer Kelley would say?? Are the Hands On Plane at Impact?

3 Planes
 

When we swing a Golf club, we do so while coordinating three 2-dimensional Planes. Each of these Planes has 3 reference points which outline their individual dynamic alignments. While Swinging the Club we are Aligned to 1,2 or all 3 of these Planes. It would be most mechanically correct for the Club Shaft (LCOG) to be simultaneously Aligned to all three Planes because it allows independent control of the Club Shaft, Club Head and Club Face.

Left Arm Wedge: The Left Arm Wedge forms one Plane. The Left Shoulder, #2 PP and Clubhead are its reference points. When the Left arm moves from point A to point B, it forms a Plane and the Clubhead movement should be dynamically in-line with that Plane.

The Left Hand Grip is important in the Alignment of the Left Arm Wedge. Flat and Vertical.

Right Forearm Flying Wedge: The Right Forearm Flying Wedge forms another Plane. The Right Elbow, #3 PP and Clubhead are its reference points. When the Right Elbow and #3 PP move from point A to point B, it forms a Plane and the Clubhead movement should be dynamically in-line with that Plane.

The Right Hand Grip is important to Align the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Level and Bent.


Together at Last: Aligning the Left Arm Wedge and Right Forearm Flying Wedge at 90 degrees will cause the Club Shaft to Align to both Planes simultaneously. This construct can then be Aligned to the Swing Plane.

Swing Plane: The Swing Plane forms another Plane. "Low Point" location, Target location and Ball location are its three reference points and their Alignment creates the Swing Plane of the Golf Swing. All three reference points can be adjusted. Normally, the Inclined Angle of this Plane is the same or is very close to the Lie Angle of the Clubshaft. The Golf Club, by design, reconciles Low Point and Target.

Homer Kelley referenced points on the Body to help identify and control this Plane. These points are described as the Shoulder and Elbow Planes and their Body reference points can be found in the yellow book. Low Point is invisible so Body references serve to substitute and have two very beneficial advantages. One, as the ball is moved On Plane while moving it back and forth on the clubhead path, the Plane Angle does not change but the Angle of Approach changes. This makes it difficult to sustain the line of compression through the Impact Interval. But the Angle of Approach can be adjusted by Tilting the Plane. The Plane is easily Tilted (Adjusted) from one of the Body reference points. The second, is that the Pivot can be adjusted to direct Thrust down this Plane.


There are no OFF PLANE motions in the Golf Swing without some form of accompanying compensation to Strike the Ball so that it responds to an Angular Force as though it were Struck by a Linear Force.

[quote=HungryBear;94439]Their movement is 3-d and not planar, and the path depends on swing plane and plane shifts. You could roughly describe the path as a bent fishhook shape, but realize that the straight line part of the paths shown in the book are ideal and not real.

You shouldn't be monitoring the hand path, but instead trace the plane line with PP#3 and have a flat, level left wrist at impact, which, when transported with the pivot, will determine the handpath.

The only way you could come close to a hand path lying on the swing plane would be a left hand grip with the handle running through the life line and the left arm perfectly in line with the shaft at address(zero #3 PA). But even then the shaft lies below the sweetspot plane.

The path of the hands is does not lie in the Sweetspot Plane through impact. Note here at :11 thru :14 - the hands are on the TSP Sweetspot plane till Throwout(delivery) starts, where they move under the Sweetspot plane while arcing upward and inward. Look at the angle between the left arm and shaft at impact at :13. The left arm is tracing a bent line on the ground inside the plane line. You are confusing plane line tracing using the imaginary line between PP#3 and the sweetspot, with the hands moving in the Sweetspot Plane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rpqW2Z9Vw

[quote=MizunoJoe;94451]OK now I follow you-
Ypu are thinking 7-23 paragraph #3. I have been thinling release to followthrough.

Yes I do have a 7-23 "plane shift" tsp down to elbow for swinging but I also have a flat plane release to followthrough. HK explains that.

I don't do "sweet spot plane" because, as I have argued before, I just ain't what it is said to be.

Gota get on the same page.

HB

[quote=HungryBear;94453]I'm talking Throwout to Follow Through, with or without plane shifts. But, yes the elbow plane has an even more "non-planar" hand path than the TSP.

[quote=MizunoJoe;94454]Nope, and if the plane is "3D" there is "off plane" throwaway.

If you care to list "off plane" forces, and how/why they are generated we could see what U believe to be correct.

Not an acceptable camera placement for your arguement.

OMG. You're completely lost. :laughing9

[quote=HungryBear;94455]The hand path isn't planar, because the angle between the left forearm and shaft is less than 180 degs, and therefore the hands must move off plane so that the sweet spot can stay on plane.

In the TSP Swing, the Right Shoulder, PP#3, and the Sweetspot are all on plane from the Top to Throwout, so there are no off-plane forces acting on the Sweetspot. When Throwout begins, the hands move off plane, but the Right Shoulder(Thrust) and PP#3 continue to trace the plane line, and so there is no off plane hand force to deflect the club head unless you try to "add" with the arms or hands.

You can't be serious! :eyes:

I'm very serious. You've got a screw loose. We're done. Get back to me in 10 years. :laughing9

While you guys are at it, you should explain how not only are the hands "on-plane" during the entire swing, so also are the eyes, ears, nose, left shoulder, hips, elbows, knees and toes! :razz:

The sad fact is that in 10 yrs, lots of poor souls might read this nonsense you're posting and actually try to keep their hands moving downward on the sweetspot plane all the way to impact ! :(

I get it!
 

I'm sorry for the rest of the people who have already gotten the difference between the Hand Positions and the correct Plane Angle of Approach, but I just got it! :laughing1 Hands to shoulder, TSP, steeper angle, feels like I'm covering the ball with my shoulder -very powerful! It's amazing how different the feelings between that TSP swing and the Elbow Plane swing!

Thanks Daryl!

ICT

From the Grandstand
 

I've read the many excellent posts on this thread and am happy to comment. Not sure where to jump in!

If you have a question you feel is unanswered -- or answered less than adequately -- please post, and I'll do my best to supply.

:hello:

One of the latest issues is whether or not the Hands are On Plane from Release to Follow through.

This discussion seems to center around the definition of "Plane". One of us seems to think that the "Plane" intersects the Left Shoulder and the Ball and therefore the Hands are "Off Plane" at Impact any time the Primary Lever is not in a straight line (no elbow bend, zero wrist cock, with the club shaft running up the arm kind of straight).

Although I've tried to help by offering Homer Kelley quotations and a beautifully written synopsis of the 3 major Planes and how they're aligned in the Golf Swing, I've been painfully unsuccessful.

Could you recommend a Doctor and Medical Clinic? For me. There's no hope for him. :laughing9

The problem, Lynn, is that I am slower than a lot of people in Geometry!
 

Lynn, this website is so awesome that their are a myriad of people who "get it" and can explain it. I happen to be slow at Geometry and abstract thinking and my very kind, funny math teacher in high school, Brother Armando, use to joke that if I understood a geometric concept, he had taught that concept really well! :)

Let me use a golfing example. I know what it means to "drag the mop" on plane. However, my feeling of it did not really, really click in until last night at about 9pm. Daryl the other day, in a conversation explained that as soon as I turned my right hip left I was turning left! LMAO! ( Now, I over analyze physical stuff because of my hip operations. I'm sure everyone else knows what Daryl explained to me and would never guess that I didn't know that but for me I think about the range of motion in my left hip and dozens of other thoughts and well I simply miss obvious stuff! :scratch: )

So I turn my right hip left and I felt my whole Power Package DRAG BEHIND ME LIKE A WET MOP ! OH YES I DID! And I felt in in my # 3 PP! There felt to be a two second delay but then it moved and my impact bag let out a "whumpf" deeper than ever before and flipped and rolled over down the driveway several times. :thumright

You explained the idea to me very well during our lessons but I lost the details because I was busy translating what you said into "ICT Hip Speak." I concentrated on your chipping and putting lessons which I knew I could do and man were they great and are great! I mean with my below average TGM alignments and your short game lessons I broke 80 or shot 80 eight times last year. :salut: But I could only appropriate so much esp going through a divorce, too, while taking your lessons. :eyes:

However, and I believe you understand this, I am blessed with a strong visual and kinetic memory and I can remember your stroke and demonstrations very clearly. You provided a visual template that I consult daily as I swing a stick/dowel/club into an impact bag and Look, Look, Look into a mirror or my car window. When I can generate the correct alignments and really hammer the ball, I am one of the happiest guys in the world and it leads me to investigate the next wobble and the process begins again.

The Forums are an international treasure. I really like searching them and reading the differing expressions and descriptions of the golf stroke. That exercise is a nice balance to the issues of the day.

I like ED-Z's quote "we have no enemies only teachers" quite a bit. LBG has given me tremendous friendships and true joy and I am thankful and driven to get it right! :read: :idea1:

ICT

Isn't that simple? The first move in Start-Down, Turn the Right Hip to the Left. Smooth. High Pivot Torque from Start to Finish, no jerky motion, no loss of connection between Shoulders and Hips. Feet and Knees respond. Weight Shift is gradual and natural.

BTW, nice post.

Nice job guys!!!

left or right
 

ICT,just for my benefit please,are you left or right handed.Thank you

BTW.....your last post......love it

Right handed Brownman and you are very kind like the rest of LBG! :yoda:

ICT

Some here think the hands are moving downward at Impact. What do you say?

In a TSP Swing, some believe that the hand path lies in the Sweetspot Plane from the onset of Throwout through Follow Through. Are they correct?

Thanks. :salut:

In the book Homer assumes the shaft or more correctly the LCOG (from #3pp to Sweetpot) to travel the inclined plane for plane compliance. But in the audio tapes he discusses a procedure where the Clubhead only travels the Inclined Plane. This latter procedure allows the Clubhead to travel up the Turned Shoulder Plane immediately in Startup . Making for a Clubhead only Inclined Plane of motion with no shift necessary and leaving the Hands beneath the Inclined Plane in Startup. (Not my cup of tea BTW and not what Lynn teaches his students). He also stated that the clubhead only plane of motion was a necessity for complying with the true Angle of Approach Procedure. "Its a clubhead only plane of motion" said Homer. "A Vertical Plane " , "well almost vertical".

But ...... this is probably of little use to anyone except those trying to fully understand the GEOMETRY of the true Angle of Approach PROCEDURE. So far historically , there are probably only a handful of people in that group. Maybe less. Maybe only one, Homer himself. Ted Fort has used the "true" Angle of Approach Procedure in professional tournament play.

BTW it could be argued that everything has an "angle of approach" ... the Right Forearm, the right hip, the right knee , the left testaclese assuming you have one ... Lets not confuse the true Delivery Line of the ClubHEAD Angle of Approach Procedure with any other components "angle of approach", Right Forearm or or or .....Molson Muscle (beer belly).


Short version , if you''re swinging and using a lot of turning and letting things free wheel , unmanipulated so to speak, you are probably planing the LCOG , Sweetspot Plane and thats what we should assume when discussing this the most common of golf procedures. With a Right Forearm angle of approach in mind or a left side Primary Lever Flail action or whatever.