Hi Dan,

Welcome to LBG!
:golf:
Kevin

What does that mean. Too inside of a path? I am shanking a few when I get tired as of late, a new thing for me. Curious to hear more if you got time.



Thanks Kevin.


-Dan

Dan work in the stationary head is essential to all patterns

Dan...you've done some GREAT work....the handpath on the backstroke is really nice and much improved....obviously you got some clubface issues which will be addressed by the mad scientist (spoke to him today about you)...So in frame 1 to frame 4 (backstroke to startdown) you and the King are looking VERY similar....very nice work...

Frame 5 you can start seeing the differences...Note how your right shoulder is "staying back away from the plane line or target line"...the the King's right shoulder is moving OUTWARD toward the plane line...you both have your hands DEEP and below your shoulder line which allows you to almost immediately work your hands and right shoulder OUTWARD BUT DUE TO THE DEPTH NOT OVER THE TOP or OVER PLANE or whatever...but you aren't taking advantage of the depth you've created on the backstroke...the King is moving his right shoulder out and on top of the left arm..

You can really see the difference in frame 6...note your right shoulder BACK...you've done a nice job keeping your hands in..but the sweetspot and the right shoulder need to be WORKING OUT TO THE BALL...(you are releasing the club UNDER and out...where as AP is releasing the club more OVER AND OUT)...See frame 7...the KANG...working that sweetspot(clubhead) BEAUTIFULLY OUT TO THE BALL ON PLANE....but you got the club still behind your hands...note how it is "drooping" down...as a result in frame 8...your clubhead is working way out to the right and up...plus you didn't bust up the ground...AP pounded out a nice divot....if you are having shanking issues...not hitting the ground issues...this is where your problem lies...

Now some of it is due to the "shut clubface"...you are making some of those "hang the clubhead/right shoulder back" to "get under the sweetspot" to get loft...so getting the face less shut could fix some of this...that could be a grip deal...or some sort of whacky move that you do with your hands/wrists...

But the major piece of this pattern is going to be learning to get that sweetspot working OUT to the ball...you've done a fantastic job with the backstroke...now you just gotta "fix the clubface" and take advantage of that nice depth you've created in the backswing....

You are off to a great start! Keep sippin' the juice....you are CLOSE!!!!

Here's the Palmer swing at the 1:30-ish mark....Palmer don't do all the downswing pieces...but does nice on the backswing and "release over from deep vs. underneath"....what causes that classic Kang Whrileee Bird is that he doesn't do the SUPERMAN FLYING MOVE....you'll get that soon enough.

The KING........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAciBq1xoOs

Thanks Bucket. Watching Arnie over and over. Sweet stuff.


Saw Eddie again today. Worked on a few small but specific things.

First of all, my club was closed at address. Would seem I could have at least figured that out on my own in the last 20 years. Ha ha.. Got it fixed and now know how to ensure it is consistently square by grip checks. Changing my grip as well, for other reasons. Feels pretty good, but I have to think about it a lot.

Eddie found out what I was doing to jack up my back swing. My back swing was going too far to have purpose. My shoulder turn stopped and my arms continued going around and up (over my body). This put the club in a god awful place from which to initiate an on plane down swing. Combine this with an already closed club face at address, I wonder how I ever became even a bogey golfer. Sure have been making things hard on myself it seems. As we effectively shortened my back swing (or arms involvement) I felt as I was staying more on plane. Eddie said so and that is good as money in the bank. Need some fresh video but the British Open conditions today prevented such conveniences.

We worked on keeping my right elbow more attached to the body. The results were near instantaneous. The swing path on the down swing is way too inside and going out to left field. We worked on that a good bit and towards the end of the 1h 45m lesson I was getting it. I can do it now when I try, but it feels a bit artificial and I am fighting years of bad muscle memory. I have been yanking the club down with my left hand from the top.

I will have to educate my hands and arms to allow the right arm to do some pushing. Oddly, I think I used to do this on some level. After long practice sessions, it was always my right forearm that felt sore. Then I read this book and saw that dvd, started using the left arm exclusively to pull the club down. Seems I have inadvertently mixed swinging and hitting components over the years with disastrous results. Just guessing, but that is what it is feeling like.

Most importantly, I took what he taught me to the range later today. I was hitting some very consistent shots straight as a friggin laser. Just a pitching wedge into 30 mph wind, but it felt good. Real good. Nice high shots that flew straight about 115 yards. Wish I could have hit more but the course closed due to weather. The wife walked out on the range and filled her rain jacket pockets with balls. I hit about 20 balls and only 3 would have missed the green. A rarity for me. I still am not making any divots, but we talked about that today and there are aspects of Eddie's pattern that will fix this in time. Baby steps.

We stood in the driving rain and wind today for nearly 2 hours. Looks like I found me a golf instructor.



-Dan

DEDICATION.........instructor and student.....results to follow...nice work.

Any suggestions for how to do this? Meaning, what part of my body do I change. I feel I am coming from the inside, dropping down, etc.. Just not sure how to get that shoulder turning toward the ball. I am wanting to focus on this as it was brought up in the lesson, but I failed to improve on it. We worked on many things, but this one gave me trouble. Want to hit the range as we are off the next three days. This move is on the top of my to improve list. Frame 7 above. Hate it. How do I get my shoulders moving toward the ball rather than sliding under the plane line?



-Dan

Dan...you're from Alaska or somewhere that 30 degrees ain't cold right? ....this should look familiar....

This is a two part move...Right Shoulder OUT to the PLANE LINE...and UP...out up...so in your frame 7...the right shoulder is moving down and under...there by not out enough and not far enough forward either...compromising your "over release" and you hitting the ground in front of the ball.

The hockey part is to get you to see how the motion of the right shoulder is supporting the motion of the right arm...the right shoulder has to move out to the ball so you got something to push against...
this is a right sided affair....split your hands on the grip like a hockey stick .... you'll note how your right forearm will want to align to PUSH....you are then gonna take your stick/golf club back like your boy Eddie has shown you steep shoulder turn...from there you are using your right shoulder to drive OUT to the target line .... if you split your hands it will help you get the feel for what your right forearm, right elbow and right shoulder gotta do to hit the puck ...ball....obviously you ain't trying to hit behind the ball....but it is a similar motion...your right shoulder is not lacking in the "downward" diminsion...it is lacking in the OUTWARD diminsion....

If you look at your frame 7 vs. the Kang....if you had a flashlight in the buttcap of the club...the Kang's flash light would be shining between his peter and his left hip...your flash light is kinda shining out to the right and up in to the air...so the handle/buttcap needs to be working to looking back at your left hip and pecker-ish area so the sweetspot/clubhead/clubface can work OUT to the ball supported by your right shoulder....check the hockey cat..handle end of the stick working into him...right forearm pushing the blade out to the puck...scoooooore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js6_WAS-Ay4

we want your right shoulder going more OUT AND UP rather than down/back and underneath....so you need to feel like there is a tree or something right up next to and outside of your left leg and foot...you want to take your sternum and belly and right shoulder UP THAT TREE....

it's gonna be like you are flying like Superman with your chest expanded STRAIGHT UP THAT TREE!!!

So flip this image vertical....imagine he is trying to get as much of his chest as he can UP THE TREE...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=VqeFYhPYQ2Q

You want to feel like your are getting your right shoulder OUT OVER and UP on top the ball that you are litteral going to TOP IT with your pivot (chest, sternum right shoulder, solar plexus thingie)...So you are gonna feel like your right shoulder stays HIGH and left shoulder stays LOW...and from the top the right shoulder turns OVER the left arm staying HIGH...but your are pushing your chest UP THE TREE AS YOU TURN over...cadence..OUT UP...OUT UP ...right shoulder feels out and over...chest and belly feel UP the tree.

you'll see it here as this cat LAUNCHES the discus...note to power the discus ...that thing is heavy so he keeps the mass BELOW his right shoulder and chest...then he uses the ground and the expansion of his chest hips and spine to move his chest UP THE TREE with the right shoulder MOVING OUT...not "underneath the discus"....the right shoulder's trajectory is out over the discus and the chest is expanding up from the ground as the right shoulder moves out...if his right shoulder were moving like yours...that discus would get launched like a high pop fly out to the right because the right shoulder would be working too down and an under the mass rather that on top and over the mass with the legs and chest expanding up the tree forward from the ground...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoQgUlLb3U4

Another thing...are you "trying" to SEE the ball when you hit it? You need to be out and up outta dodge so fast that you don't see the ball...your hands know where the ball is...get on up outta there ala Duval...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfSPs70p0jc

I promise you he ain't seeing the ball...he's getting his pivot up the tree and to the target...

Wow, good stuff.

Sounding like a cat I know down in Tucson, left shoulder low, right shoulder high, push up through the ball.

Hands in backswing, clubhead out, sweatspot over and out downswing.

The right shoulder out is the most difficult part. Hogan, Palmer, Duval, Trevino, did this better than most.

Nah, I am a NC boy. My wife and I worked in Alaska for 2 years and we get up there a few times a year fishing and floating rivers.



That makes a lot of sense. Still trying to figure out how to make it happen. Meaning, the actual move, trigger, etc... that facilitates the move. I will get it, just a matter of when. Thanks for the ongoing advice and encouragement. Going to hit range balls tomorrow. So excited I can't sleep.



-Dan

Dan....even though it's the right shoulder that controls the geometry...you are in control of the procedures and the feels....so try this one on...

LEFT SHOULDER LOW AND AROUND .......THAT ONE GET'S ME OUTTA THE RIGHT SHOULDER DROP UNDERNEATH SWINGING RELEASE FUNK....

Hey Bucket .

Im not familiar with your pattern but with my eye I see Arnie as a guy who:

-pivots hard. Hips are moving , turning hard and early.
-gets inside early with a shut face. What they used to call a "closed to open" player back in the day.
-Rotated Shoulders but with his Hands (the inclined plane) under his Right Shoulder, not a Turned Shoulder Plane then.
-Swingers Drag Loading , but with arched left hand. Which has implications to where the lag loads.....not a classic Rotated Presssure Point loading like Hogan at the knuckle. More like a guy who loves to load the Index Finger and loads it hard and early which can get you inside and closed during the backswing and arched at Top. But he's gonna use that lag loading along the Aft in Release with some all time , worlds best Thrusting.
-Downstroke, he's not "holding the umbrella" he's loading #2 angle although he's gonna fire #1 too principally . (1 and 2)
-Delayed Release ...really late which normally has implications complications to the Thruster if his left hand is turned to Plane and his #2 angle is loaded which would be at cross purposes. You'd be loaded for Sequenced and then trying to Overlap Release with your Right Elbow not being in the right place for the thrusting. Arnie though, as seen above in frame 6 and 7 even though he's very late , is arched and has his elbow and his #1pp (maybe even his 3 pp) aligned towards the ball. He's aligned to Thrust . The arch as a compensation for his Drag Loading maybe ? He's got the quarter turn undone in other words and his pressure points between his right elbow and the ball. Gonna make a side armed throw not so much an inline push type thrust but hard.

I can see how one could look at his pivot and late release and think he's using his pivot like a swinger .... uh, he is, for the most part. He's not a Drive Loader , 12-1 to my mind he's 4B Hitting. Pivot power , Drag Loading and then Thrusting with compensations to over ride the usual loading along the top of the shaft via the swingers start down.

Which at the expense of further cross pollination between your two threads around here may have some similarity to what Tiger's up to these days... although without the arch compensation. I dunno.

Thats what these eyes see but like I say I don't know your pattern . So please set me straight and BTW whats the purpose or advantage of the Right Shoulder being above the Hands? You wouldn't need to shift down I guess. Im here to learn.

All the best for 2012 everybody.

OB

You're correct 100% pattern is Angle of Approach Hitting Pattern....10-5-E .... steep plane dictating steep shoulders...right shoulder high and steep b/c of derived plane...no Swinging here... Eldrick is trying to get steep shoulders and swing...could be me mismatched components...pitch elbow don't work with this particular pattern...

to your question on hands/arms and right shoulder alignment at top....taking the hands above the right shoulder lends itself to swinging...arms have to fall in line with the shoulder so they can drive....if the shoulder is the backstop...why would you EVER want raise your hands above the launching pad? If you are loading the primary lever... why would you EVER want to raise the upper leg of the primary lever above the dual agent right shoulder?....if the right shoulder and chest is driving the arm down...why raise it up above the shoulder? If the hands are up there...the pivot has to wait...something has to move...if the axis tilts early you just turned the launching pad into a fly wheel....

Bucket, my feeble attempt at your pattern. I cant really get my shoulders anywheres close to steep, for me this is steep.

The more I trusted driving the right shoulder down the plane the better I hit it. There definitely is no attempt to use a swinging action here. I did hit it rather well.

http://youtu.be/5-pmnwzvG5M

http://youtu.be/Sj0siZw1Als

Well, today was hosel rocket day. So dang frustrating, can't recall ever hitting the ball so bad, so consistently. Not sure what I was doing wrong. After my session, it did occur to me one BIG thing Eddie had worked with me on the other day. Keeping the right elbow close to my body. Somehow, my genius self, I realized this after hitting 100 balls sitting in the car looking at the crap video of my hour on the range. Oh well, baby steps (and set backs) are the way it goes I suspect. Today was a bad day. Wanted to play tomorrow, but can't take this swing to the course. Another day at the range for me. Below is a video of one of my half way decent hits. Literally, hit about 5 good shots out of the 100 balls. The one positive (I think) thing, I was making some divots today. Never take a divot, but hoping to one day. A byproduct of a bad swing? Not sure, but it was interesting to beat up some turf. Just wish the balls had not been 10 feet off the ground and heading right. It was a bit embarrassing.


Anything obviously different here compared to before? Shank city.


Last week...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56STh7fVx1U&feature=related[/video]




Today...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIlGlfmI2Qk&feature=youtu.be[/video]



-Dan

Today...



[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIlGlfmI2Qk&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Do you have a face on from today?

It sure seems like the elbow is to far behind you. At this point in the swing the right elbow should be working down to your right hip and more in front.

No front on video from today. The right elbow could very well be the issue. It was one of the focus points in the last lesson. Somehow, I forgot this today while hitting balls. Got about 5 other things I am changing. Lots of swing thoughts. Checking my grip before every swing due to finding out it has been closed until now. So much going on. But that is OK. I am willing to pay my dues. This game ain't easy. Wouldn't have it any other way.




-Dan



Happy New Years:golf:

Dan the top of the backswing looked nice....I kind of drew some lines for you....your shoulders are staying too closed...you can see from the red line...note Palmer's shoulders are relatively square at this point...yours are pretty closed...this is keeping the clubhead/face from working OUT to the ball...note the direction the buttcap is looking...you need to get the shoulders turning and the buttcap starting to look back at you...note in the second pics how far back from the ball your clubhead is...it's not working down and out to the ball ...it's working underneath to the ball...that's where the shank is coming from...

So you need to feel like your left shoulder stays LOW and WORKS AROUND LOW BEHIND YOU...LEFT SHOULDER LOW AND AROUND...that will help get the clubhead to work out to the ball...also feel like buttcap is going to start looking back at you much earlier...remember this junk is happening FAST...so you may have to FEEL LIKE it is beginning to look back at you almost from the top as you start your downswing...



Note the arrows...left shoulder low and around right shoulder high and out....

a couple of things to experiment with...get a headcover or shoebox or something that you can't bust up to bad with a club or hurt yourself with...set it between your right foot and the ball...experiment with the placement but you are trying to put that thing in a place where if you come from "in and underneath" you'll crash the box...

also maybe try putting the ball waaaaay up in your stance I mean like outside your left toe and hit irons trying to hit pull cuts kind of...the way you are swinging from underneath you will have a tough time getting to that forward ball...film it and see if it changes the pictures....

careful here....no pitch elbows in this pattern...you are correct the elbow is back...but the main culprit is the right shoulder...it needs to be working OUT....shoulders staying to closed...the need to TURN...DISCUS LAUNCH...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoQgUlLb3U4&feature=player_detailpage&list =PL99F01FAB5EDD4C40

Yea, for him it will feel like its in front but it will not be.

Has to be punch, agree.

Did you have a chance to look at my video, curious to your thoughts?

As far as getting steeper shoulders ... it's hard to "capture" this in the pictures...but you actually "raise up" some in the backswing...you have the ability to steepen them shoulders out if you want...you know this stuff...change your knee flex (left bent right straight)...you REALLY need to "SAG" the left side...COLLAPSE it...you could feel like you are doing it so much that your head goes DOWN...

You have a nice swing....it's gotten much better...what do YOU see??? What do you see on the downstroke?

Yea, raise up, always have no matter the pattern.

This shoulder motion is actually much steeper than I am used to, feels like I am bending the left knee a ton but its probably not very much in reality.

SAG the left side, second time I have heard that in a week and both of yous know your stuff.

What do I see, well I cant quite get the shaft as vertical as I would like as in the Palmer pics but I think that is a result of the lifting up, I see that right shoulder can't quite get around and its dropping more than I would like not providing the right support.

I do think there is more good than bad and appreciate the compliment.

I do think presetting the hips did help bring the club back on plane versus my slight outside hand path and it providing a nice mental alignment of the 2-j-3 for hitting.

my pic skillz suck on this one....

comments...

address...too much shoulder tilt... pre-tilt spine left...pre-turn right hip...pre-flex left knee some..pre-straighten right knee some..

you tell me on the downstroke want to hear what you think before I advise/comment

you've worked hard on your golf swing...it really shows...when Jeffy dissed you about not working hard...that's b.s....you've made some changes.

Thanks Bucket. I will try again tomorrow.



:golf: :golf: :golf: :golf: :golf: :golf:

A few things...you have already predisposed yourself to the downstroke right shoulder motion you have at address....get your spine set up so your upper center is in front of your lower...PRE-SAG it...the set up and the backstroke are setting up your descent...

Some of the cats (you know who) are big on "left shoulder down" on the backstroke...YES...BUT...it's left shoulder down AND OUT...you want to feel like your left shoulder is working DOWN AND OUT to the plane line (just like the right shoulder on the downstroke)...you are pulling your left shoulder up and away..and you are already setting up with it UP at address...you don't need no more of that IMO....from there you can reach with your left shoulder down and out to the plane line...sag that left side but get the shoulder working out too..

get a heavy book or something that you can hold like a discus...move that thing back behind you and get your shoulders steep...you'll be surprised at how much more range of motion you have than you think...look at dan...he's a big boy and he's deep...you got that in you..steep and deep...you may try to make some swings feeling like you sag so much that your head goes down and left.

Your right shoulder has plenty of downward dimension in the downstroke in my opinion...you are missing the outward...note all the shoulder tilt at p6 and impact...left shoulder LOW AND AROUND FOR YOU....forget all that sliding junk...HIT THE FREAKIN' BALL WITH YOUR STERNUM...get sagged...forget about your hips...from there...LEFT SHOULDER LOW AND AROUND...STERNUM UP AND FORWARD...that'll get you jumping...feel like you resist with your left knee...left shoulder low and around sternum up and forward...stop trying to see the ball...you are good... your hands know where the ball is...you want to get left shoulder low and around..sternum up and forward FAST...so fast that you feel like you are going to COLD TOP THE BALL WITH YOUR PIVOT...don't try to "keep your eye on the ball"...you've hit enough balls you know where it is...get outta dang dodge with your pivot...put your focus "out there"...you have educated hands...trust them to do their job...YOU PIVOT...not no sliding...you get left on the backstroke...then HIT IT WITH YOUR STERNUM AND CHEST...BACK MUSKLES....you look like you are trying to "place the club"...get reckless with your pivot and right arm....you want your axis tilt FORWARD and RIGHT SHOULDER HIGH...






Get that left shoulder around low and get that chest expanded...

Dan,

Don't run the video. Instead use this starting image as the basis for what I am about to ask you. Where would the club head (face) have to move from this point to hit the ball?

Thanks man. I see it plain as day now. Will be taking a box to the range in a bit. I know how to fix this. Yesterday was like a potty trained 2 year old pissing himself.




-Dan

Box treatment.......film it and have a look....

What I see

Well for me when I preset the hip its pulls the shoulder back, my guess is I am dropping the right shoulder giving it to much axis tilt. Setup you are correct, my machine guy in Tucson told me about this but it seems like I may need to pay even more attention based on the photo's.

at P2 shoulders not working in a circle which is about to start a bad chain reaction of the lifting up. At P3 you can see the shoulder starting to stall but its not an overall bad position.

P4 looks alright but the shoulder has flattened as I have raised.

P5 is horrid, hip is sliding out, shoulders are staying closed, looks like its going to be hard to get the club in front of me here.

P6 is not too bad other than the shoulder being no wheres near square. Hands are in a better position than normal. Too much axis tilt.

P7 is not bad really, good coordination to save it.

P8 there is a slight disconnect of the left arm and it has a slight chicken wing, guessing this happens due to off plane shoulder motion.


EDIT: thanks for all the good info Bucket, your one of the best!

It worked:eyes:


Went to the range. Excited and a little nervous, like the first time you got some.... well, some. :)


I talked to myself on the ride over, prepping myself for the outcome either way. Yesterday hurt, no BS way to rationalize it. It was just painful. Shank city. Never had that happen before to that extent. Today was another day. Took a cardboard box about the size of a liquor box. Set it up and beat the ever living shet out of it. ha ha.. Of course I did, what did you expect?

Eddie calls while I am standing at the range about to start hitting balls. Like he knew I was in need of a pep talk. Ha ha.. He reminds me about the efficacy of the box drill. Got box? Check. Ready to change swing plane? Hell yeah. It begins.

After 3-4 box beatings, I found the right line and started hitting some nice, high, straight (laser straight) pitching wedge shots. At this point, I had already hit more good shots than all of the 100 balls yesterday. Now I am feeling a bit cocky. Took the ball off the small (1/4") tee and hit from the ground. Same awesome results. Shank was gone, just like that. I get even more cocky and take the box away and continue to hit about 60 7 irons. These went straight mostly, high, and far. I did notice a strong draw on some, slight push on some, but nothing that couldn't hit a green from 160. Interestingly enough, my 7 iron goes more like 145-150 with range balls. I was hitting the ball at least 10 yards further, into a stiff breeze no less.

Not sure what the heck happened. Got video, but will have to rely on you guys and Eddie to tell me what the difference is in yesterday. The ball knows the difference. I beat it like a red headed step child. Ass sore, crying, "BAD BALL". Man, today was fun. I think I can do it on demand now. Not sure if the video shows anything or not. Curious if you guys can see anything.


Today, my thoughts were simple. Try to keep the right elbow connected to my body in the backswing. Try to change the downswing so that I was not swinging outside as far. I did give some conscious thought to throwing my right shoulder into the mix more, but not sure I did it yet. The thought about turning the left shoulder down and around helped some. Still got much work to do with the right shoulder I suspect, but I did make an attempt today.



Yesterday, SHANK city...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIlGlfmI2Qk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]




Today, new and improved Dan (just not sure why)...

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clpVrjDK97Y&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Shankless Dan (just not sure why exactly)...


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clpVrjDK97Y&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]

Bucket, so a pretty big component of the shoulders inclination is the left knee bend?

This man bends the left knee like crazy.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! To have the steepest shoulders ever had to bend the left knee...look at the right knee almost hyper extended....

gmtempe....you SAY you can't get your shoulder steep....but you know how to get 'em SUPER steep on the down swing...imagine this as a left handed backswing...you is perfection as far as steep goes...so you "know how"....

This shankless Dan is what I want to see Fri at MidPines!