You don't need to compensate to do this, Daryl. But you need to change the relationship between the pivot and the arms swing. You need to turn more through and delay the #4 release. Or, perhaps, as 12 pc talks about - cover the left arm better with the right shoulder.

Well, thank goodness I only need to "change the Relationship between the Pivot and the Arm Swing, turn more and Delay the Release of the #4 Accumulator".

I was afraid I'd need to compensate. :)

I'm not sure that I have communicated this very well . . .

I'm just basically saying that the right shoulder stays ON TOP of the left arm keeping the left arm down and the hand down . . . if the right shoulder motion is more vertical and UNDER it complies with a steeper plane and or a plane shift . . .

You see this a lot from players who have their body hiding the handle DTL past impact

Thanks everyone. good stuff. I was gettin it together before the cold retired me for the winter. Hopefully when spring comes I will pick up where I left off. Got some good new info to reinforce what I am doing. Plan on hitting gym to maintain those core muscles and stretch til march. Then I will ready to call my teacher golfgnome for some meetups.

You also need to lower your swing center. The elbow plane will intersect the spine lower and closer to your body's center of gravity. That will make it a lot easier to stabilise the pivot and maintain a steady swing center. I regard that as a bonus of course, but I guess you regard that as a compensation as well...

You seem to associate the elbow plane with a flip release. Nothing is further from the truth.

Hogan and Garcia seem to hold off and swing left
Fowler and mickelson let the left wrist roll/release.
Which method is correct?

Hmm? I associate a Downstroke Plane shift with a Flip Releases but all Downstroke Plane Shifts don't have Flip Releases.

I'm not complaining about compensations. Players need them. I would be concerned if someone applies a compensation, although it works, for the wrong cause-effect.

I think I understand what you're saying. The Right Shoulder and Left Arm are aligned, but not to the Swing plane or the swing plane as we typically think of it. And the Shoulder staying on top of the Left Arm is an Alignment that will keep the Left Arm going Down.

Happy Golfing Christmas and Holiday Season!
 

God Bless Everyone!:sleigh: :smiley2304: :xmas-smiley-005:



ICT

Sure . . . but look at the location of the HANDLE . . . some raise it up . . . some keep it low . . . I'm saying that shoulders torso or whatever is providing support to keep the handle from raising UP . . no that it's wrong . . . just different . . . keeps the club on the Arc of Approach . . . and on the face of the elbow plane rather than a plane angle shift . . . for instance fowler shifts the angle . . . I don't think Nicklaus in his day really shifted dramatically . . . could be wrong . . . could post pics. Fowler goes low to high . . . Nicklaus just stayed high . . . . Hoch too . . . Furyk is an interesting study because he does all that whacky stuff but once he gets to delivery or slotted or whatever you wanna call it . . . club moves pretty similar to Hogan. . .

I'm not saying this is hitting . . . or swinging . . . I don't know how you catalog it really . . . It seems to be more Arc of Approach procedure-ish . . .

Neither . . . preferences . . . My mind likes the Hogan move better . . . but that would be no surprise . . . in my opinion their are some mechanical advantages . . BUT it could be hard to learn and hard to do???

I know exactly what you mean bro. The Handle raises but WE think it should stay down. It should stay down. Mine stays down, way down. Keep in mind that it's pretty easy to stay down with my snap release Horizontal Hinge. I'm sure that your right shoulder alignment will help with that but I'm saying that Rhythm and a Flat Left Wrist should do that and the Left Elbow needs to Bend after Impact. So, you can't glue the upper left arm to the chest (compensation) because the Elbow can't bend in time, so, the Handle will Raise when the Left Arm raises. So, I look at this procedure (compensation) and alignments you're referring to as a compensation for a compensation.

Also, you have to keep going down after impact so save some right elbow bend for that purpose. You need bend to have the right forearm on the Angle of Approach for Impact anyway.

I wonder if the Taly would teach that? Travel completely around the Pulley and bend the left elbow before the left arm raises.

I just looked at the video's and the guy demonstrating the Taly keeps his left arm glued to his chest also. :laughing9

I know you're not complaining about compensations. But you still believe they need to be there. It must be because you haven't been able to make the best out of an EP impact alignment for yourself.

My experience with the elbow plane is 100% the opposite of what you're saying. I get more lag pressure, I sustain the lag pressure longer, I basically get the same swing speed.

If I understand you guys correctly you're talking about "swinging left" on the Elbow Plane from a DTL perspective in Follow Through. If so how does the Right Shoulder keep the Hands down on that plane? Havent the Hands long since left their lagging the shoulders condition?

OB;

If you check my "apocalyptic" posts on accumulator 4 maybe you will be convinced that the shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands. But you have to keep powering the turn to take advantage of it.

I am not a fan of the swinging left term. It sounds like a swing plane manipulation. But I believe that when it's done in a good way it is only about sustaining the lag pressure and supporting the plane.

However, the swing plane is outside - in. But it is paired with a release that is strongly inside - out. Combine the two and you get a three dimensional impact and a divot down the target line.

We are not having a meeting of the minds although I think we agree on almost everything. It doesn't seem that way sometimes. This is one of those times. :laughing9

Of course I think compensations are necessary. The truth according to what I've seen is that most players Improve because they apply the correct compensation for a personally preferred procedure or alignment. It's rare to find a player improve by eliminating compensations. I've worked my whole life toward that goal, and I've paid the price along the way by not improving until I had acquired "Alignment" knowledge. :eusa pray:

I don't have a problem with the Elbow Plane except that you can't trace the Plane Line until the Plane Shift and you don't have On-Plane Right Shoulder support. Besides, the best golfers in the world have found compensations for those things. :)

Please bear with me during the following example.

If a Player uses a little Extensor Action with a Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he will Cock his Left Wrist by Bending his Right Elbow or raising his Arms, without cocking his Right Wrist. If a Player chooses not to use the Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he'll need to Cock the Left Wrist another way (compensation).

If a Player Cocks his Right Wrist, then he'll need to apply a compensation to Uncock the Right Wrist.

Yes, the differences are probably magnified at the expense of the common understanding. I can live with that. And I hope you can too. Cause I enjoy both the agreements and the disagreements.

I am not sure that the pictures we study show what we think they show. Actually I think we interpret what's going on plane wise is off the mark.

What's the most correct way of measuring the swing geometry? We look at the relationship between the hands and the clubhead - the line that runs from the hands through the sweet spot of the club. The area it covers throughout the swing is labeled as the inclined plane. And we attribute a great deal of value to it.

But what if we look at the hand path in separation and the clubhead path in separation? Elbow planers have their hands closer to their torso at address and impact. That's what keep them on the elbow plane. The shaft plane is raised during the back swing, which means that the hand path is pretty steep.

And overall the clubhead path can be quite steep as well for elbow planers. And perhaps steeeper than on the TSP. I don't think a TSP-er can take the club as high up as Furyk does and get away with it.

When Furyks swing was declared to be the most unfundamental at TGM he responded that he feels like he is swinging straight back and straight through. He doesn't feel like rerouting and plane shifting. Feel isn't real, I know that. But perhaps what we take from those pictures isn't real either. Perhaps Furyks application of force is much more straight back and forth than the photos might suggest. The golf stroke is a a 3D motion but we always look at it in two dimension. I wonder how good we are at seing the real force wectors that are working the club.

Look at Garcia:


Here, the clubhead has caught up with the hands when you look at the plane where the clubhead is going. (The up front view) But if we had a picture - not face on - but handpath - on - we would possibly see that there were still accumulator #3 lag present. Is he swinging left? Yes. But perhaps he has been swinging left all the time.

I say he is swinging left here:




It doesn't perhaps look like he is swinging left, but I say he is. The plane line of his hands' plane is pointing left of the target. His hands are too close to the ball here - and they will get even closer before they start moving left in our down the line view.

If he was on the TSP here he would be very close to thrusting all the PP# force he could produce right into the inside aft quadrant of the ball. But he is coming in with more accumulator #3 lag than the TSP-er and he needs to keep some of it in order to not place his sweet spot outside the target line. At this point his hands are already too close to the ball to go straight at the ball. And they will get even closer before they move away from the ball. He has to turn his hands to the inside. But the hands are already heading in that direction so it's not something he has to manufacture in the last instance.

I believe that "covering" the left arm with the right - as has been said earlier in this thread - really is a stroke that is powered along hands plane with an open plane line.

How shallow is the clubhead path really on the elbow plane? I don't know. We always look at the shaft angle and assume that the club goes where the hands has been. But in the big scheme of things the hands travel on a much steeper path than the clubhead. So how can the two move on the same plane?

Some of the flatness that we see is caused by accumulator #3 lag. Quite a lot actually. When I strike the ball on the elbow plane I use a lot more vertical force throughout than when I swing on the TSP. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like to do it. If you look at Garcia past impact his shaft angle has steepened quite a lot. I don't think that is caused by a reorientation of how he applies force. It is a direct consequence of reduced accumulator #3 lag. The club is in the process of catching up with the hands, and therefore the clubshaft is increaslingly reflecting the plane angle Garcia is thrusting on - and has been thrusting on for quite some time.

Take this as preliminary thoughts from me. I don't think I understand even half of what's going on here. But I am quite certain that the shaft angle we usually look at is quite deceptive.

Triangulaton for Christmas? Three wise guys to start!

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7856-4.html # 35

Luke said something about baseball (bat?)

When the Right Shoulder, the #3PP, and the Sweet Spot are married together at Top and move in the same direction in Start Down, the forces are aligned for maximum efficiency. Divergent forces are simply less efficient, but are found all the time on the PGA Tour.

In my own 4 Barrel Hit, the Pivot Drags the Power package toward the Plane Line with a Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C). And, I follow with a Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It feels like I’m throwing a baseball at the golf ball.
__________________




Daryl Added:

Yes......

The Pivot generates the Raw underlying Power either like a Flywheel or, in addition, acts like a Backstop for Right Arm Thrust.

What tells the Pivot where to go?? The Hands should. The Pivot should go where the Hands need it to go and not subjugate the Hands into trying to accommodate the Pivot. The Pivot should Accommodate the Hands. But you can be very successful either way........

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7856-4.html # 40

And Justin Tang has this at the reputable ISEEKGOLF.com

http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruc...rmed-for-power

In figures 5 and 6, Justin talks about the feel of flattening his back wrist to start the downswing and then angle the shaft handle to the inside quadrant of the ball (elbow in?).

Are we talking about imagining a baseball bat being flung at a real small tee ball?


ICT

Bucket,

Gave my students from Italy a heavy dose of my machinestacker pattern along with a lot of Yoda in preparation for the Doral Jr. Publix. Results: In their respective divisions, Emilie Paltrinieri winner by 6 shots and her brother Julien Paltrinieri winner by 7 shots!

EC

The shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands? Perhaps we need to define what this means to each of us.

To me that means that the shoulders are powering the hands and that the Hands havent separated or accelerated away from the shoulders. Meaning the right elbow is fully bent , the left arm is still in contact with the left pec. So you havent Released at all. The power accumulators are remain fully loaded. Well at least 4 and 1....which in my book means 2 and 3 are still fully loaded too. Im thinking you must have a different meaning in mind for "stays ahead" , not sure.

Not saying there isnt a feel of turning the pivot hard , keeping the arms packed for elbow planers. But a real would be a different deal altogether. Wouldnt it?

It's real. If you don't believe it try to replace the left hand with something that hangs from your neck. I am confident that half or quarter strokes will be sufficient to feel the difference.

PS: Happy Christmas, OB Left. It has been a pleasure to agree and disagree with you in 2k10.:golfer3:

Same here BerntR , all the best for you and yours in the coming year.

Ob

Wouldn't have expected any different! Nice work! You snowed in???

Golly I must admit I have a hard time visualizing all this. I wish each of you had a plane board to demo your concepts on. Then I could see where the club head, club shaft and hands were in each of your descriptions. I think it is difficult to tell where the camera is in the pics shown. I know that some think the camera must be placed on the plane of the hands and at hands height in order to properly determine swing plane. I always thought that physics would dictate that swinging in a circle(ellipse) the thing swung would try to remain on the same plane. So If you are are hitting a driver with the ball foward, close your stance so that your plane is a little to right and swing how does swinging left fit in? If your hands and clubhead stayed on plane they would go left anyway. Wouldn't more left be off plane and under? This is all giving me a headache although I must admit I am bookmarking it to my Best of Lynn Blake file.

I totally agree , no need for a headache you got it right.

For flatter Plane Angles there is more In and less Up in the Three Dimensional orbit (forwards, up and in post low point). So Elbow Plane does have more Left (In) to it than higher plane angles. But to do this and swing left in a non aligned to the base line of the Inclined Plane manner is to risk what Homer termed "Bending the Plane Line" as the clubhead orbit goes three dimensional . .. non planar, with all its loss in precision and power.

Plane shifting can and should have no effect on the Base Line , Plane Line. 1-L-18. In this way the clubhead orbit stays 2 dimensional and the plane is not "bent".

Heres a plane board , but one that shifts angles (double shift represented here) while maintaining its aligned to the plane line relationship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeizRf3JZY

Have a look . . . .

Our friend Golfbulldog has done a GREAT job here . . .

http://www.youtube.com/user/golfbull...46/-jmi2ZICmd8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJlzCoxiTdg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KI9X...eature=related

"Amen" belongs here.
 

The Whole Truth . . . Nothing But the Truth . . .Not Just the Left Truth
 

I wrote this post in another thread a couple of days ago, but it is relevant here and worth a reprint . . .




In a Rhythmic, On Plane Golf Stroke, the orbiting Clubhead moves outward -- to the right and towards the Plane Line -- until it reaches its Low Point. Then, and only then, does it begin its journey inward -- to the left and away from the Plane Line.

The Flatter the 'exit' Plane Angle (after Impact), the more 'left' the Stroke will appear. But, this is a matter of Plane Angle, not Plane Line. The liberating truth is . . .

In a geometrically-correct Golf Stroke, the Clubhead never moves away from the Plane Line before Low Point, and it never moves toward the Plane Line after Low Point. So, it's Swing right, and then, Swing left.

:shock:

As a simplified alternative . . .

Trace the Straight Line Baseline of YOUR Inclined Plane!

:cool:

Oh, the humanity!!!!
 

A STRAIGHT LINE????? :notworthy

But, that's too simple. Surely, we can make it much more impossible than that when we're in the heat of competition...

we are gonna need a team of scientist to verify this. Whats next? That the ball basically goes in the direction the clubface is pointing?

yodas luke, how are you. hope you are having a great holiday season,,,,,,,,,,,,,,what some people here are looking for is not being discussed. on other websites they are discussing the two ways to release the clubhead. one method calls it cp or cf release. another calls it hitting with leverage or slinging the clubhead. it is not just about the right shoulder. what people are wanting to know is how to get to hogans positions instead of vj singh's thru the impact area. is there any difference in what one needs to do to accomplish the two differnt positions at impact?

Theory of 'Facivity'
 

When you stop and think about it . . .

It is very difficult for the ball to bounce off the face of the club in any direction other than that which the clubface is looking.

:idea1:

HUH? do what?

The "Not-So-New" Ball Flight Laws
 

Easy does it, Joe.

Chip and I were just referencing the "new" Ball Flight Laws. Recent 'scientific' means have 'discovered' that the initial direction of the ball is, in Homer Kelley's words more than forty years ago, "practically at right angles to the Clubface".

Please pardon our tongue-in-cheek exchange.

:salut:

Tall Guys and Short Guys
 

Start with the idea that V.J. is more than half-a-foot taller than was Ben.

:shock:

To be sure, Swing Plane is not determined solely by height -- witness Matt Kuchar -- but, that fact should definitely not be left out of the equation.

:salut:

Having written the above, it now occurs to me that Swing Plane and its influencing Component Alignments -- the overriding theme of this thread -- may not be the "positions" you are referencing. In fact, since I'm not following the "other websites" to which you refer, I must admit that I have no idea what you're talking about. Please specify the alignments you seek to differentiate. Thanks!

:smile:

You honor me Luke. Thank you.

But the truth is you and Yoda also informed me......and so I must ask you both to please keep on preaching to us here.

For those who think this exchange to be dogma or back slapping, Id suggest that is really geometry. Not golf geometry or golf gobbldy goop just plain old geometry of the circle. It knows not golf, it just is.

cp or cf
 

I don't profess to be an expert in all the methods out there. But, I know that CP stands for centripetal and CF stands for centrifugal. Whether those are the best names for each of the styles can be an entirely different discussion.

I also know that this method has deep TGM roots. In the limited amount of CP and CF information to which I've been privy, it seems as if it's an expansion on Plane Line Tracing. From a Square Stance, the golfer would be able to trace multiple Plane Lines to the left of the target and multiple Plane Lines to the right of the target. But, each Plane Line is still a line.

Personally: I prefer to rely on the same Plane Line and Stance Line relationship, with varying degrees of Angle of Attack based on the length of the club. If I change my Plane Line, I also change my Stance Line to match. In order to create curvature, I adjust my Grip to Clubface. Unless it's a specialty shot, I find little need for having 7 Plane Lines for every club in my bag. I like the Machine Concept. And, I'm not going to exclude 1-L-19.

I'm not trying to cloud the water, but it's difficult to get too deep into this conversation about the two positions without considering many things:
Golfer's stature, shallow or steep Angle of Attack, camera location, Steering, single Plane or bent Plane, Inside-Out, Outside-In, is Clubface affecting Plane, etc., etc., etc.

Back On Track
 

Thank you YODA. No matter how excited we get about new ideas and concepts, it all has to come back to the basic foundation in determining it's merit.

Kevin

Double Your Pleasure
 

Maintain Both Flying Wedges (Hogan) until Follow-Through or just your Left Arm Flying Wedge (VJ). In both cases, the First Imperative Flat Left Wrist and 1-L-8 apply.

2-f
 

I think the assumption that the hands and the clubhead are moved on the same plane is preventing us to fully understand what's really going on in Hogan's swing.