GREAT answers, thanks Daryl! :salut: :salut: :salut:

Kevin

The answer is "a lot" if you ask the right questions. Whether it will make you wiser or a better golfer is another question.

John is thinking and asking like a researcher here. I like it. :salut:

And I enjoy all the efforts to produce a satisfactory response too. :salut:

The best questions aren't the ones who are answered 100% right away. The best questions are those who challenges our current knowledge and triggers knowledge creation. So what's there to be frustrated about? Take a break and watch the show when you run out of answers.

This thread has made me think a lot more about the impact interval and what really happens.

I think I got it reasonably well covered before and after impact, but while the ball and clubface has contact:

How disturbing is the mass & inertia of the ball really?
What does the mass of the shaft mean?
How does stiffness and flex characteristics of the shaft influence inmpact?
How does the pressure point alignments and the hands motion influence impact?
And not least: How does impact affect the stroke for the 0.5 ms period?

I've started to think of it as a stroke within a stroke, and since I'm a TGM guy I am as interested in what the hands do as what the club head does. I wonder what kind of stroke pattern we see there, during the 0.5ms interval.

During the stroke, the clubhead collides with molecules in the air, which creates some swing resistance. What happens when the ball gets in the way is a sudden increase in this resistance. A big discontinuity. I don't think pretending that the ball isn't there is the way to go. Not for the skilled golfer anyway.

But we have a few middle grounds too: From air to rough, from air to bunker sand, from air to water.

To pop a few lab questions:

1) What would the compensation free hit of swing look like under water, where the swing resistance would be significantly higher at all times, but all other conditions would be the same? What would be the similarities and differences with an air stroke?

2)How is the stroke disturbed by a transition from a low resistance condition to a high resistance condition? For instance from air to water, from air to rough, from air to sand. And from air to ball. And how can we best deal with this discontinuity?

John, let's try to understand each other. We have common ground. We both enjoy the world of Golf and we both want to learn and understand Swing Mechanics. We also enjoy talking to others with the same interests.

This forum is not the place for combativeness and the owner and managers have explicitly expressed those concerns.

We, me and many others, challenge ourselves each time we open the "Yellow Book". But when questions are framed in a "Challenge" it's annoying. We're "Students" of the game. Getting challenged on what we've learned and material we haven't learned is like "Pop Quiz". I don't want to be tested. I don't want to have every word I say dissected and analyzed. I create illustrations while trying to understand the material. The material is difficult to understand. Harder to comprehend the significance of it. I post the Illustrations showing my understanding of the material. Nothing more or Less.

We joined and participate in this Forum to "Discuss" our favorite topic. What's on my mind today isn't on yours. But we engage in discussion to share what we know and learn what other know. We don't get "Spoon Fed". The only way to learn is by studying and discussing.

I'm open to other ideas. I understand that some people want to "pull down with their left arm" from the Top. I also understand that some people want to "Push off with their Right Leg during the Downswing".

There are a lot of "Professionals" that visit this site on a regular basis. Double that number of Professionals that read the site regularly but don't participate. LBG.com has earned a reputation of fair and open discussion.

I'm thinking out loud.

In spite of the fact that I woke up in a silly temprement:

Answers

1. Got to ask Alan Shepard- He has the best data???

2. Avoid then compensate - then apply Snell's law

Sorry - couldn't resist

The Bear

Reality Check
 

Okay, John, you have not responded to my post #71 seeking confirmation of the "pictures" you are referencing. Forging ahead, I assume (per my post) that you mean Sketches 2-C-1/2/3.

:smile:

By the way, that was my fifth post written directly in response to one of your own and also the fifth one with zero reply from you. Mox nix to me, but I find it kind of interesting, especially given your insistence that people respond to yours "or else" you begin to wonder (your post #55).

:scratch:

Two points:

1. Look closely at Sketch #1 in each of the Series, i.e., 2-C-1 #1, 2-C-2 #1 and 2-C-3 #1. You will notice that the ball is sitting on a tee, and Low Point is clearly illustrated as occurring 'in the air'. Therefore, as specifically related to these drawings, there is no contact with the ground whatsoever, much less any "pinch" effect (which, of course, doesn't happen anyway, even with the ball on the ground).

2. In 2-C-1 and 2-C-2, your observation that the ball is being carried "downward and to the right" (On Plane) is correct. However, Sketch 2-C-3 illustrates the Lob Shot being executed as a deliberate Throwaway procedure. Hence, it is being carried neither downward nor to the right.

"Precision is recognizing and reconciling minute differentiations." [2-0]

I have several other comments -- actually, a comprehensive overview -- relating to the Sketches, their purpose and the precision depiction of the illustrated concepts. In it you will find the answers to a few of your earlier questions (and more). I will get to that task as time permits.

:salut:

I personally find this discussion to be very informative and welcome (well intentioned) questions "of all kinds".

Me too, but just as "Heavy Hit" is mentioned here and many other places in LBGF as well as throughout the book, I just don't seem to get the hang of it. Heavy Hit has me bamboozled.
The forward leaning shaft and the face contact with the ball resulting in compression--I get. It feels great. It is highly addictive and winter is going to be tough. But Heavy Hit may be my next exploration.
Sorry to threadjack, if that is indeed what I just did, but I would love to either see a response from anyone or a reference to somewhere for me to look further.
Regards to all and thanks for your service, Vets.

You have it and just don't know it. It's that great feeling of compression when you have a forward leaning shaft and lag pressure!

:golf:

Kevin

Oh sure, easy for you to state. Now I suppose I am going to have to head out to Anoka for another discussion and have this pointed out over a cup of coffee.
Remember, I am a bit obtuse.

LOL

Come on over this weekend. I'll be in the shop all by myself watching it snow. I'll be here from 9-3. Bring plain coffee with lots of caffeine and cream, and I never refuse a donut! :)

Kevin

:golfcart:

You got it Kev. To me heavy and lag pressure are (much) the same thing. (add extensor action and grip pressure etc) To maintain a constant amount of lag PRESSURE (psi's not degrees or angles) you need to accelerating at a constant RATE. You can accelerate fast or slow a move to a lower rate though you are still accelerating will have a corresponding drop in lag pressure.

Homer wanted us to "Sustain the Lag" PRESSURE!

Force =. Mass x Acceleration

I hope bernt and bear concur.

Damn, when I saw "you got it Kev" I thought it was Jerry coming with donuts... :) :) :)

Thanks OB! :salut:

Kevin

It's snowing?!!! So cool!
 

John, Daryl, gentlemen, friends, Romans, countrymen... :)

Jerry, the "heavy hit" to me is the whole back shoulder dragged into place by a slow, deliberate PIvot. The shoulder is dragged down plane and the elbow and forearm thrust powerfully against it employing the entire back side of the body to heavily "smosh" the ball. (I love inventing terms!)

I have a marketing idea for you Kevin, and every other winter-bound region: Institute "Winter Short Game" and "Golf Theory" clinics. Name a price and teach them how to find the sweet spot on their putters, chips and pitches. Two sessions. Fit them for a putter and wedges $$$$$$$$ ! Pre and post Christmas and Hannukah! (My peeps golf!) Then, Session III, "Acquiring a Full Swing," finishes about Spring.

Of course, participants get free range balls once a month through the season, and a 5% discount on a season's playing pass if they pay cash, up front!!!!

Each week, show Alignment I clips and other LBG stuff. Serve donuts!!!!! Chocolate donuts. Fly Win McMurray into MNPLS!!!! Toronto! She can sign our free
(golf) balls!! If people will pay for Palin, they will come to see Win show them how to put and chip!

John, think carefully before answering this next question....wouldn't you enjoy speaking with Win McMurray?:think:

ICT

Snowing !!!
 

Golly guys there are a lot of great buys down hear in the foreclosure market.
Played today, ate on the porch of the club. In the 60's. Top down on the convertible. Why do you live up there. Do you just like wool?

LOL - you mean it doesn't snow everywhere? :laughing9

We're in Minnesota, a suburb of Canada and we don't get out much... :salut:

Kevin

That's probably why most Norwegians who have immigrated to USA have settled down in this state.

living here
 

I played with a guy from Canada yesterday who lives here in the winter. Other than the "different" colorful golf outfits he wears he is great - just like us. Doesn't say you'all yet though.

About 30 years ago I played golf just outside of Brownsville, TX. The grass was funny. I haven't been south since.

Let the record show that Kev is north of where I live in Canada. Im golfing next week but with doughnuts and coffee of course eh Kev?

Kev you should come down here for some fall golf.

I wish I could my friend. Someday!
:golf:
Kevin

Lmao!
 

David, very funny!

But now that you mention it, wool and flannel sheets make me feel ehmmmm, comfortable.


ICT

Toronto is a great city!
 

I keep forgetting my geography. But I remember

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...=0 CGMQ9QEwCA


If you can't see the photo, It's my favorite Canadian (OB is 2nd in a very different way :) ), Shaniah Twain.

ICT

Thanks City. Shania belongs to the world now. Lets share her ok? Actually, Kev and Jerry may be in closer proximity to Shania's home town of Timmins Ontario than I am in Toronto. Not sure.

They could probably cross at Sault Ste. Marie and make it to the Shania Twain Center in about 16 hours of driving or so. About the same time it would take me drive from Toronto to Atlanta OR now that I think about it fly to Atlanta , play 18 holes at Bears Best and then meet Lynn for a New York Steak and a martini at Houston's then toddle off to bed at the Hotel.

The only thing better would be if we could get Shania to hit Marietta Ga. Maybe she'd hang around Houston's looking for old guys who talk about golf non stop. I hear she's into that kind of thing.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128967732 9


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128967732 9


Ah snap you got me off topic again City! Dam, I feel for the Shania thing again.

This is called "Modeling" in the teaching biz.
 

We are modeling a civil community that can talk/joke about lots of fun stuff (like good meals in Atlanta and a talented, beautiful singer) and still be serious and self-critical about golf technique. John, am I missing something, here?

In the end, we only compete with ourselves in golf. This is what life is. I can't be you or Daryl or Lynn. I can do my best to follow their insights to see if they work for me but that produces humility in that they suggested an improvement and it worked for me.

I understand mistrust, believe me, well, try to believe me. :) How do you trust golf teaching in a world where people just lie? Try an idea or insight and if it works try another. Easy peasy.

Lynn Blake and Daryl and OB and the state of MN etc. do not need you or me. Lynn has told me enough in his website with free stuff and videos to get me to par shooting, if I had 4 years to just observe and ask questions. He owes me nothing. People he has taught have given me great golfing insights for free. When I tried to pay the MN gang back, they tolerated me buying dinner and lunch for two days and then just kept giving me stuff! Free rounds of golf, hours of golfing insight free range balls, picking me up from my hotel twice a day... I figured I spent $1000 for the week. Kevin alone gave me about that in his time and instruction, and free golf in the first two days. Gerry gave me as much in many different ways.

The four Mondays after coming back from MN, I probably made another $250 in skins games with what I learned and would have made more but my hcp. fell like a rock! All my hacker friends stayed at a 14 hcp. and at an 11, I had to give strokes to guys I knew were cheating for years. I finally just told people I'll play them straight up or not at all. That was very interesting and a future thread or two.

The world has some dark places and people, no doubt ( like Jeff's basement in Indiana LOL) ! This isn't one of those dark places. These are not sinister people. And guess what John? WE want you to loin our tree-house and put on the decoder ring and learn a few useful insights! And give us a few, too.

ICT

City,
8" of snow in my yard at this moment and it is still snowing a bit.
I may have to find some medication to get through this winter. I just recently found Compression on a nearly regular basis and now I cannot watch that type of ball flight until probably mid April.
This is such a downer. Be sure to get a round of golf in tomorrow just for the MN contingent.

feel for you Jerry, it must be a downer indeed

I took the Schnauzer to the range today, while it was 62 degrees.
 

A much older gentlemen sat down to Play with Anna Louisa, our Schnauser, and asked me what kind of clubs I was hitting so I showed him the ZB's. He asked me my hcp. and I mentioned the website, the PLane, the # 3 PP and then beasted some range balls while Hitting and Swinging. Showed him some Basic Motion, too.

I feel a PGA teaching card coming on with multiple LBG certs for a new summer job! How's the tuba, Jerry?

ICT

The LBG certification will be much more important to you from a teaching / playing standpoint. Something I never thought I would say...

Kevin

I feel a PGA teaching card coming on with multiple LBG certs for a new summer job! How's the tuba, Jerry?

ICT[/quote]


The tuba is wonderful. I am subbing with an orchestra this afternoon, brass band rehearsal tomorrow night, brass quintet rehearsal later in the week. At least I have that going for me.
I hear my clubs calling from the back of my car. I think they want to head southeast into Wisconsin where it hasn't snowed yet.

Busiest retired Dude in the North! :salut:

Kevin

Yes, I'm sorry I missed that one. Please accept my apologies.



Thanks for your responses. The other 4 responses either had no questions in them, told me my question was invalid, told me to read the book more closely or I was told that one didn't have the desire to respond.


Regarding post #55, I wrote
At least a couple of these would be my fault and not an "or else" as been presumed.

As specifically related to these drawings, I can see that the ball is on a tee. Why would a person assume that this information would change with a ball on the ground? Is low point changing? What changes so that the ball isn't driven downward from where it is resting?

Seems strange to me that only during the impact interval does the path of the club have 100% influence on the direction of the ball(down and to the right) and yet at separation it chooses to leave the face practically at right angles. How can Homer have it both ways? While on the face, only path influences ball even though the face is rotating while the ball is on it and the ball's centerlined has moved relative to both the angle of approach and arc of approach as depicted in 2-C-1#3 and this has no effect. Then all of a sudden, the ball decides to stop listening to the path and come off the face at practically right angles.

Some smart ball.

I look forward to seeing your comments.

Hey John, You really are just a person who likes to argue, LOL!
 

Why would you specifically relate to "these drawings" and not the chapter they are located in? Hey John, Resilience, Trajectory Control and Linear Force are all just some of the facts "baked into" those diagrams. Homer went out of his way to remind people that you have to cross -reference EVERYTHING!

For example, if you read 2-C-0 you'd see the the intentionality of the shot is "compress the ball through a particular point along a particular line..." Horizontal Hinging is intended to send the ball in a particular direction as is Layback. Lacking intentionality, the ball comes off the face of the club "practically right angles." Check 2-D-0/2-D-1, to see a larger set of factors all of which I wonder if you have considered in forming your remarks.

Homer was not an idiot or a fool (and it's fascinating to see you disrespect for him. Are you planning to sell something?) My stance on this site is that I'm learning and so I do not hold myself out as an expert. If I don't understand something, I make an observation and ask a question. But that is after reading the book and watching the videos and giving them the substantial credit they deserve. You seem to have no such restraint.

Yoda gave you some good advice.

A golf ball pays close attention to lots of factors at impact. There is a lesson there for all of us.

ICT,

Thank you for referring me to those passages and your input.

I don't really like to argue. I like to understand. I question until I do (if allowed).

Surely, sometimes it takes me awhile to understand and I accept my limitations in that regard.

I am truly sorry if I come off as a person that argues just to argue. It is just my way of learning. Question until understanding.

I've asked before and if that method of understanding is no longer allowed I will understand. No harm no Foul.

I am a fan of the book and use concepts from it in my own teaching.

JG

You are a fan of TGM??? How would you know?
 

Kids come into my computer lab and grab the $3000 machines from time to time and shake them or twirl them or... They are kids, as I said.

When I ask them, "Did you loose the common sense that you used to cross the street this morning (In an above-conversational level tone)," they usually say something like "What are you talking about?"

So I explain. "Crossing the street requires you to be careful of cars and other moving machines which will hurt you. You considered the context or big-picture of the street. You were smart and so you made it to school. You walk into my room and you try to damage an expensive machine that could help you become a millionaire by giving you an education. Why? Where is the common sense you had this morning?"

John, you are an adult and as I recall, you seem capable of considering the big-picture (if that is you in those you-tube videos) in making logical presentations. Yet, somehow, you expect me to believe that you are incapable or unable to look at a diagram in TGM and not consider five pages in front or in back? Really?


And you do this passive-aggressive stuff I see at school. Like a child, you bully and try to hide behind victim status ("If I'm allowed.") (I have to accept my limitations...I question until I do....) Your response seems like your the standard "I'm really trying to get better" BS bullies try to use when they are caught. "Just my way of learning...acting, speaking , assaulting, confusing..."

I don't think you are credible.



ICT

ICT,

You are entitled to your opinion.

Another personal attack from a different person.

Shocking that a discussion can't take place without this type of behavior.

I understand better now that this is a place for like minded individuals looking to discuss TGM without fear of challenges.

I will honor that desire and limit my questions to the non challenging type.

JG

Wow!!!!

Lets see now.....

I am not here to just defend John, as I think that he came on a little hot, but I will defend the right to ask questions, no matter how stupid they may seem, and that we, as members of this community, try to answer them in a appropriate/correct way.

Answering as you did, ICT, makes me question your credibility as an educator.

We need to figure out a way to clean up this mess. A bunch of great guys posting and getting pissed at each other over an idea. Our problem is with the man that re-intoduced the information, not with the information itself. We need to get past it, study it, and figure out where it fits with our studies...

We are all friends here. Come on guys, it's not worth WWIII. :laughing9

Kevin

Do you agree that "practically at right angles" means something similar to D plane?

Where do you think Homer was wrong? Do you think that the ball doesn't stick during the impact interval? That it rolls on the face? Or something else?

In the 7. edition P.23 it unfortunately doesn't say "practically" any more, but "properly".

"Properly right angles"?