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If there is no deceleration then lag/wrist cock would be sustained until well past the ball, and you wouldn't actually hit it! The arms have to decelerate for the wrist cock to be released surely?? It works the same for the rest of the sequence, hips/shoulders/arms yes? That's how I understand it.
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Yes, always.:)
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Of course I'm keen to hear more though Daryl! I'm willing to learn something new each day,,,,
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Daryl
In all respect how do you know you dont(should) decelerate each segment, hips, trunk, arms, as part of your swing? My understanding of summation of segments for increasing velocity etc is dependent on each prior segment slowing to enhance the transfer to the next segment. Do you think you dont decelerate or have you measured data that says you dont? |
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How do you know, unless your have been tested to measures your body speed etc how do you know if they are accelerating and decelerating. You can't no one can. Myself I can't even feel these events occurring, the body is moving so fast you can't sense acceleration and deceleration occurring. Daryl your going on your beliefs here. here's how conservation of momentum work Formula M1*V1=-M2*V2 example The above equation is one statement of the law of momentum conservation. In a collision, the momentum change of object 1 is equal to and opposite of the momentum change of object 2. That is, the momentum lost by object 1 is equal to the momentum gained by object 2. In most collisions between two objects, one object slows down and loses momentum while the other object speeds up and gains momentum. If object 1 loses 75 units of momentum, then object 2 gains 75 units of momentum. Yet, the total momentum of the two objects (object 1 plus object 2) is the same before the collision as it is after the collision. The total momentum of the system (the collection of two objects) is conserved. In golf you need 6-M-1, conservation of momentum and muscular loading which fires each body segment to continue to create velocity(speed) until the distal end speed reaches the club. Each body segment must accel/decl to transfer speed. No beliefs or opinions, pure physics and measured science to back the theories. Daryl, I could understand why your not doing this in your golf swing, if you were accelerating and decelerating each body segment you wouldn't be here you would be out on tour winning. We all would be out there winning LOL. As I say to everyday to those who argue, where is there measured science and research to back their beliefs and where is there measured science and research to prove us wrong. And what back ground or understanding do they have in biomechanics and movement patterns. SO they stop and think for minute so they open up their minds to other avneues. Although the laws of physics all the biomechanists are on the same page, they all agree on newton's laws, conservation of momentum and the kinetic link. This is applied in all bat and ball sport.Not only golf we work with athlete's in many other sports and has tens of thousands athletes data. Years of research involved. As I said no beliefs or opinions, we have research, measured science and Pure physics. |
I haven't been measured.
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Have you ever seen a Pre-Stressed Golf Shaft going into Impact? Quote:
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Free energy ...
Where does the energy come from to accelarate the clubhead past your hands if your hands do not slow down? Newton and Gallileo pretty much nailed that you can't just create energy out of nothing. If your hands accelarate to top speed and then don't decelarate until after you've hit the ball then the clubhead cannot accelarate faster than the hands do and so you wont get a release.
You can't say that CF just does it. Put a free swinging arm on a wheel and keep spinning the wheel at a fixed speed - the arm will never catch up. It will only catch up if you decelarate the wheel. This is pretty basic physics. Or am I missing something? You can't just take something someone says as gospel if the basic physics don't stack up. There must be something else added - so what do you understand that is? |
Maybe someone could post a video of a functional swing where the hands do not slow down at/towards impact? I've been looking at the tube and I can't find one, certainly happens for Norman, Woods, Hogan, Ogilvy, Gay etc etc from what I can tell, even without state of the art measuring equipment.
Maybe Newton never played :golf: so his laws don't apply here?:) |
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The Pivot has a Sequence in Swings using a Straight Line Delivery Path.
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ok your quoting out of the book, So next question how do you achieve all this? Physics training the body to create the right physics. Of course I have seen a pre stressed shaft, I've worked with some top line golfers and also some world class golfers and taught them how to create shaft flex all the way to impact using pure physics. Even taught myself how to do it myself. we put sensors on the shaft and can tell you in which direction force is moving at the ball x,y and z. x is at the ball, y is up and down, z towards or away from your body. I've seen tons of data with people without a pre stressed shaft and taught these people how to load the shaft and maintain shaft flex. I can tell you how they achieve and can tell you why people can't achieve shaft flex. Again easy answer all to do with having good physics or not. Regardless the theory isn't even important , what is important is how to train and teach people how to achieve physics. Which is what I do. |
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Here is one of a hundred available. Look at Tiger on swings where he uses a sit-down procedure. Look at Sam Snead. Look at Ben Hogan. Look at any golfer using a Sit-Down procedure. That's the Tip off of a Sequenced Pivot. Following the sit-down is a Hip Rotation which drives the right shoulder, which drives the left shoulder, which pulls the left arm wedge through impact. Don't look at Freddy Couples (Circle path). ALSO: Look for pro's that move their heads slightly to the right during the Backstroke and tend to keep it there. They are keeping weight on the right side and using ground pressures to crank the Hips around. Swinging with the Right Arm off the club will help train a sequenced pivot. Learn to move the Left Arm Wedge with your Pivot. Don't move the club with arm or shoulder muscles. It's also enlightening to find that swinging with the Right Hand only on the Clubshaft, that your right arm is helpless unless you can lock the elbow into a stiff lever. Even then, the Right Shoulder has too much play to handle the power applied by the Hip Action. But, Both arms together, with Extensor action, (Power Package) can be violently Propelled with little physical effort. The Hands can direct all of this force. When your Pivot can Power the Swing this way, you will no longer have "Blackout" during the Downstroke. When the Arms and Hands no longer apply any force to move the Hands, you will imediately sense the Tracing of the #3 Pressure Point. You will immediately begin to keep the #3 pressure Points relationship with the Plane Line. Educated Hands. Hands Controlled Pivot. You will Float load, Drive Load, Drag Load at will. You'll hit draws or fades with the slightest Plane line, target line and stance line manipulations. Watch Ben Doyle. All Pivot. Sequenced Pivot, super Hip Action. But he never tells you "How to". :laughing9 Ben thinks that everyone already knows. :laughing9 Ben says: "Load it, Store it, and then Shoot it". And people stand there and listen but are a little shy to ask: "What do you mean by "Shoot it"? |
Putting it all together
I love Greg's Swing. He talks about constant motion and swinging faster will make you swing slower. I know I have stood behind Ben Doyle with my hand on his shoulders and they seem to be in a constant smooth motion. So.....
Feels are certainly different from reality. I enjoy bio's contributions but here in the mountains of the carolinas I have no access to experts. So as I do forearm takeaway to the top I do not need to concern myself with anything but loading 2 and 3. Now once I am near top I need to create just the right amount of stretch in my shoulders when I reverse direction and sit down. I do not need to torque up my shoulders on the backswing. Now once I am sitting down balanced and "centered" as Ben says the shoulders will unwind and my hands will go down and foward releasing what I have stored shooting or throwing out at the ball. Now to get to finish and catch the dog by the tail I have to get the shoulders around and foward ending up on balance over my left foot. Now hopefull you biomechanic boys can tweek this with your knowledge. Certainly you can distill it down to a few paragraphs. I am a physician and even though you said it would take 50 pages, certainly you could distill it down for us. Greg teachs students constant motion. Lynn teaches karate chop, taking out the plane line, throw down and out from the wrist. All of these thoughts have worked well for me. Because i am intense I tend to overdo. that is why the SCC stuff you mention resonates. You can't squat to low to jump best. You can't over torque on the back swing. You can't hold the contraction too long etc. |
Hi David,
That's interesting. I was just reviewing Ben's 24 component video were he talks about the Pivot. I never realized how much time he spends on it. Here are some interesting comments: Quote:
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In Physics there is theory which I have been speaking of. Theory is the understanding. Essentially what is important is how do you put the theory into practice. As I have said previously is how do you train the body how to create the physics. First step is to be tested to find out what your movement patterns are. Then you can build a program to train your how to create the right movement patterns. I can continue to speak about theory for ever although people still won't be able to apply this in practice. It's not something you can go to the practice fairway and try to achieve. You need to be given a program to train your body how to create the right movement patterns. I speak to guys about TGM, they know the book exceptional well, but in practice they can't break a 100. Listen to them speak they sound like they can break par. What is important is learning how to train your body how to put the theory into practice. |
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With TGM it's been a guided struggle and I feel confident each time I play. I don't wonder how I'll be hitting the ball that day or If I'll have my "A" game. My best game this year is five straight birdies. I've only had one Eagle in my life when the ball hit the cup from 60 yards. Up till about a year ago, every Hole was a scramble but I still posted a respectable score. Now that my swing is 100 times better than it was two years ago, I don't consider the big difference to be the scoring, but the lack of scrambling and absence of struggle. It's just a different game all together than two years ago. Two years ago, the best I would score was a 79 and the worst an 84. Today the best I'll score is a 69 and the worst a 75. So I think that a Swing which I know is 100 times better is giving me an average of ten less strokes per round. I even think differently on the course today. I play some tough courses but from only 6900 yards. Recently I played some courses in Michigan at 7400 yards and didn't notice a big difference concerning the Yardage. I will probably not be striking the Ball any better than I do today. My chipping (which is great) could save me another stroke per round, and if I make all putts (my putting is great too) within 12 feet I'll save another 5 strokes. I hit 85% of the Fairways and almost as many greens. I only drive the Ball 250 yards. So, I figure I need to improve 100 times more. That's not going to happen. The big difference between 2 years ago and today, is Knowledge. And, a some trial and error. It seems like I've learned a little more with each year (theory, then application) and I've finally ran through all twenty-four components and then some. I've been learning what seems to be a lot these past two months, but I don't expect to shoot a 60 any time soon. I wish I could point to one or two changes that made a big difference but I can't. But if could say anything that would make sense to others it would be that my Pivot does the work and my hands are finesse even on my longest drives. Oh, and I lost a lot of weight. |
Fyi
Most of TGM folks I know are improving. I certainly have. I am currently a 6.7 handicap 70 years old with significant arthritis and two artificial knees. I feel I will continue to improve as I hone my basic and acquired motion. It appears bio mechanic knowledge, training and information will remain elusive for me. I frankly feel all I need is the help I get from Lynn Blake Jeff Hull and this forum. This provides me with the practical knowledge that I can take to the range and then on to the course. My "chickens" are hatching and I feel comfortable that I will shoot my age soon
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Daryl, slow motion might be easier to see the deceleration, at that speed pretty hard to see whats going on though it for sure looks like a fine swing!
I think here we need to be careful about terminology? Bio says the hands decelerate, you say there is constant motion. Well both can be correct? A car can slow down at an intersection but not stop, constant motion with deceleration? We might be arriving at feel not real? Feel; constant motion, all parts moving through to finish. Real; conservation momentum, hips fire, torso, arms etc in a 'kinetic' link of energy/acceleration being transferred to the ball. I've sat a looked at much of Bio's data from many great swings, the measurements (speed of hips, arms, club butt, club head, top speed, speed at impact, angles of spine and more!) are there in black and white (well many colors really) I believe this stuff can work wonders in conjunction with the mechanics of TGM, they need not be mutually exclusive and I don't believe Bio thinks they are either. I have learned heaps from TGM and now with Bio I have a chance to apply the mechanics to an engine that is firing on all cylinders! (not a sales pitch:) ) Still, I'm a learner and loving this thread, thanks. |
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:naughty: Kevin |
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Also . . . . what do you think about Mr. Kelley's concept of a centered pivot? And do you subscribe to a particular Plane Angle? Or is that an option? |
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We look at creating a good kinetic link and creating more efficient movement patterns.Also how the body creates speed most effectively and consistently. We look at how the body is designed to the move most efficiently with less force as possible on the body to reduce injuries. I can't mention players names due to privacy acts. We have provide evaluations for 4 former world number 1 players. They all have a good kinetic links and similar movement patterns. Although their swing all look different to each other. Basically we train them to create movement patterns of how their body is designed to move and function. Once the body learns natural movement patterns they develop their own pivot and planes etc. Importantly to provide any training we need to test an athlete to find out what their issues are first. Theres a natural way your body wants to move and create speed, we teach people how to achieve this. Not sure what it is with golf, although most people struggle to create effective movement patterns. Golf is the hardest to train people how to develop movement patterns as well. All the other sports working with athletes in tennis,baseball, hockey is a lot easier to train athletes to develop good movement patterns. Golf is the most complex sport when it comes to movement patterns, We train athletes in cycling,running, tennis,volleyball,baseball any bat and ball sport, throwing kicking and jumping out of all these motions or sport golf is the most complex. We specialize in training athlete's how to create movement patterns and understand how the body moves. Basically we teach people how their body wants to naturally move and create speed. 6-m-1 is how the body wants to move naturally we teach people how to achieve it. Here's a good example Pete S in tennis has a good kinetic link . He plays of 3 in golf, he rips the golf ball. In tennis they have a similar kinetic link (6-M-1) he has a kinetic link his body knows how to naturally move. So didn't take Pete long to become good at golf. Homer has some great information although here's the problem is people perceptions and points of view of homers work. Get a ton of TGM guys in one room and everyone has a different perception or point of view on his work. Homer ideas on pivot it depends on how people perceive his ideas. I'd prefer to stay out of the argument to be honest. Homer is the only one who knows what he meant by a centered pivot. Plane Angle, people can create their own all I do is create the physics for them. |
Bioengine,
You've referred to 6-M-1 on a number of occasions. Just to refresh you're memory: Quote:
You don't seem to teach or believe any of this except "But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact". |
The “Centers” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation.
Yeah I like it sounds pretty good to me. Depends how we want to interpret what homer is saying. I can fully understand what he is saying here. 6-m-1 best section in book everyone could learn from. |
Really? It isn't open for interpretation. What makes you think it is? If you're confused about any word in 6-M-1 I'll be happy to explain it to you.
What about the remaining: Do you subscribe to the Following Statement? Quote:
I know what I'm talking about because that's what I do. I used to release at P3. I'll put Homers Method up against your P3 Release any day. How about This Statement? Quote:
Do you know why the 4-1-2-3 release order is the ONLY order possible? Do you know how to Increase Overlap? Decrease Overlap? |
Wrong again...
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Malapropisms and buzz words |
Daryl,
It Physics like come on, open up your mind here. Your speaking about geometry. This is a thread is on biomechanics isn't it. So I'm educating people about biomechanics not geometry. TGM is about geometric golf not biomechanics. No mind what data do you have on movement patterns to put forward to prove conservation of momentum doesn't exist please enlighten me I'll all ears. a golf swing starts from the ground up , just like tennis or baseball, please enlighten me if you have measured data to prove this to be wrong. I'm not interested in someones word of belief , I want science and facts |
nope...
Release (lag/wrist cock) is NOT caused by deceleration. That is a myth.
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Uh.... NO...
"educating"? There is no "either or scenario" here. There is only misunderstanding and misconception. Our english language is being perverted....
PHYSICS: 1. (used with a sing. verb) The science of matter and energy and of interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such as acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism, as well as in modern extensions including atomic and nuclear physics, cryogenics, solid-state physics, particle physics, and plasma physics. 2. (used with a pl. verb) Physical properties, interactions, processes, or laws: the physics of supersonic flight. 3. (used with a sing. verb) Archaic The study of the natural or material world and phenomena; natural philosophy. GEOMETRY 1. a. The mathematics of the properties, measurement, and relationships of points, lines, angles, surfaces, and solids. b. A system of geometry: Euclidean geometry. c. A geometry restricted to a class of problems or objects: solid geometry. d. A book on geometry. Quote:
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My criticisms are with your belief that TGM is not about Zone 1 (the Pivot) and other of your misrepresentations of TGM concepts. Additionally you fail to acknowledge that different Delivery Paths are supported by different Pivots. Incompatibility. Circle Path and Straight Line Path do not use the same Pivot. I think that Bio-Mechanics should account for the Players choice. But your quest to find "more Power" disregards much of the subtlety that different Pivots provide. And Zero Pivot is an option. |
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COAM Myth
For those of us who adhere to long established definitions.... COAM cannot and does not apply to the golf swing. COAM is short for Conservation of angular momentum.... Its what causes a spinning ice-skater to speed up as she pulls in her arms (ie decreases here moment of inertia). By definition the ice skater already has all of the angular momentum she will ever have when she begins to spin.... She adjusts her moment of inertia by pulling in her arms and that translates directly to a higher angular velocity. THAT IS COAM.... GOLF ON THE OTHER HAND.... NO SUCH THING OCCURS.
During the golf swing the golfer is constantly adding energy.... The golf swing is a gestalt or EVENT not a situation where energy (angular or otherwise) is being conserved. We're dealing here with long established well defined Mechanics (which is a branch of physics) terminology.... COAM can ONLY apply to an object subject to a CENTRAL force. A CENTRAL FORCE is one that by DEFINITION cannot add to or reduce rotation (a central force is directed though the center of rotation.. by definition!). A golfer is NEVER an object subjected to central force and therefore COAM can NEVER apply to golfer or club... ever Data? I don't need no stinkin' data because I understand the subject matter. |
So pivot braking, or what I term, Braking Sequentially (BS for short) has no merit?
I believe Homer and Lynn discussed this once upon a time. Homer had a quotable response, polite but quotable. Dont know if Lynn ever posted it. |
It's good to listen to opposite positions, especially when they are so convinced the other is in error. Whatever.
Mr no COAM ever, I applaud your talk, even if you unwisely dismiss the presence of data and the implications it may have for how to train for a golf swing. Daryl, and I think this is the point of Bio, did Homer ever explain how his insights were to be incorporated into the movement patterns of each person? The semantics of "physics" or "geometry" aside, each person moves the club using their nervous system and muscles which must be ordered in a sequence. Bio suggests a way to measure and train movement to produce optimal (based on measurements) club head speed AND injury risk, based on the data of many previous measured case examples. Agree or disagree with the terminology if you like but I for one can see the benefit of the diagnosis and training of specific movement patterns for golf. Daryl, maybe you are lucky enough to not need this as you intuitively found an efficient pattern. I have not been screened but from the little freely available information and some cheaply available, I have learned enough to know that in conjunction with TGM instruction my understanding and ability to golf is enhanced immensely. |
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In other words, Homer is imploring you to, Start from the ground up at a driving range with a qualified TGM Instructor. Why take a lesson in Pivot Controlled Hands when you can take a lesson in Hands Controlled Pivot? |
Daryl, this IS what Bio does. He works from the feet as it said was preferable in bold by you. He works closely WITH his students to achieve this as you said. He works his way up the link/zones with a series of progressive skills training to create a movement that creates power through a repeatable swing. From there either the hands or the pivot could be in control, up to the individual I'd say. If that basis is established then great things can be achieved using the mechanics of TGM, look at Brian Gay, he did it in this order from what I understand.
The main issue for me is also movement with the least risk of injury! I have a bad back but am playing powerful pain free golf with these better movement patterns, also much better golf. I am experiencing steady, extremely satisfying improvement. |
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we aren't talk about COAM conservation of angular momentum. we are talking about COM conservation of Momentum. What do you know about human motion physics. What do you know about moevement patterns, do you understand how movement patterns functions. Or how the human body want to move naturally. do you understand this subject matter? Not sure why your going on about COAM i never mentioned it. |
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There could be a communication break down here somewhere. TGM I'm not say that TGM doesn't employ zone 1 first. Homer says it in black and white totally agree with him. And really like how he mentions in the book from the ground up. Now that amazes me how he worked it out and homer was ahead of his time. I wish Homer was around today cause I would have love to worked with him and done research with him. TGM is an amazing book and has some great stuff. Problem is, in writing, things can come across wrong and if I have I apologise to you and everyone. To try and communicate biomechanics and movement patterns in writing is very difficult. If i could speak verbally, I can do it on my ear and you would develop a very good understanding quickly. To do this in writing is hard one and is very hard to describe something to someone in a way, so they can develop a picture of what I'm speaking about. Not easy. How long did it take you to develop an understanding of TGM, did you grasp it first time you picked the book up or was it a continually studies of the book and attedning education seminars. Same with biomecahnics it will take you a while to develop a basic understanding. In golf we need physics and geometry. To do we achieve physics in golf. How does physics work in human motion or how does the human body move in. I'm trying to explain how the body moves naturally and how the body wants to create speed. Once people understand this, then we can move onto, how do we train movement patterns and get the body to move the way it wants to naturally or designed to move to create speed. Daryl lets remove the golf club from our hands, lets remove plane lines, angles and remove the club. Lets look at how the body moves then lets add the club later. What we must understand is, How the body wants to move and is designed to move. Ask a doctor he can explain how the hips turn and shoulders turn. I could never work out why the doctor said to me your back shouldn't hurt when you play golf. I know why now. Hitting or swinging the body moves the same way. It may appear different with geometry added. With out geometry same moves. Hips and shoulder turn are the same motion in hitting or swinging. When you remove the geometry. What I'm trying to do is educate people how to create the movement patterns so you can apply TGM to it. How does a pivot function, how do you create a pivot. What creates hip rotation and hip rotational speed. What creates shoulder rotations and upper body speed. This is what I have been trying to educate people about. How do we create the above and how can we train the body to do it. Working on plane lines on the practice fairway is going to train movement patterns, that's geometry. Also to identify what the body is doing you have to measure the bodies movement patterns. Hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speed. Muscular loading, trunk stability ( If your turning around the axis of the spine) is the hips moving perpendicular to the spine are the shoulders doing the same. If you have too much right lateral bending of the spine this effects your geometry, if the hips are sliding too much along the target line effects your geometry. How can we apply geometry effectively if we can't move our bodies effectively in the first place. Would it be fair to say that with some peoples golf swing issue,are from poor movement patterns. Which is effecting the way they are able to apply their geometry. Maybe it's not homers work is the problem, maybe it's peoples movement patterns which prevent them applying TGM effectively. Food for some thought |
Cause v.s Effect
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My only question, so far, to you, with due respect, is: How close does (especially) your swing (or those you trained) match with those you described, presumably you know what to do or apply for the best? To me, what you mentioned, including body movements, sequences, biomechanics and so on, are "Effects", like all the mechanics under the hood of a car. Once engineerred, they react faithfully to what the driver do, pressing the acceleration paddel or the break or steering the steering wheel for example, to function. The human body is basically well engineerred by the creator, as well. They function by reacting, in a naturally coordinated way, to what the brain tells them to do, which is the "Cause", like the driver's act. You don't really need to mess around with what under the hood to drive a car. The body, the club and the ball move according to the physical "Law", with which you don't want to mess around, either. More control (effect oriented) means more manipulation and potentionally more interference. Instead of finding the "Effect", which can be very informative, I prefer to identify the "Cause", the acceleration paddel, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, the break paddel and so on, and let the car do what it is supposed to. Afterall, I'm not sure if those golfers of your model knew what's going on in their bodies while making a swing or a shot. They got to "do something" for sure and the point is what it is, which is unlikely what you saw. How can you see what's going on in one's head? I love to see what's going on in the body, the club and the ball during a swing. But, to make one, I prefer to do the "Cause". |
Works for me!
Well whatever agrees or disagrees with the Book I have been doing my exercises for about 2 months now and not only has my swing changed enormously but it has gone straight to better. No months of struggling while I embed new actions. The only struggle has been that I have needed to make some small adjustments to my grip because I was getting a different ball flight and needed to adjust for it.
On the weekend, after a combined practice schedule of 12 hours (in total since I received my exercises) I hit the most fairways I have ever hit, I hit it longer, consistently, by about 20m. I was getting wonderful compression and divots from my irons. And I scored my equal best ever score against par, despite taking 38 putts. I haven't had a full swing training session at the range for over 3 months. And I am hitting the ball so much better than I ever have. In fact the only problem I have is trusting how well I'm hitting it, and getting my mind out of the way when I swing. Previously I'd be running through the mechanics as I stood over the ball and then try and execute. Now I check where I want it to go and then go. No technique thought. No feel thoughts. Just swinging the club. I love biomechanics. They are easy to do. Fun actually. They don't take me away from my family for hours. And they work. They really work. Much better than I could have imagined. And I'm not even doing them as often as I should. I could have improved even more! Scary. |
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