That's a right Biceps/shoulder turn takeaway. No extensor action, maybe a slight fanning.:(

Daryl

I have no idea why you state that Stuart Appleby is not applying extensor action throughout his backswing. His left arm is continuously straight throughout the entire backswing and the straight left arm acts as checkrein on his right upper limb's movement. Although the major right humeral movement is an external rotation of the right humeral head within the right shoulder socket (while the right shoulder socket is moving back to the TSP), there is always a small amount of right arm abduction occurring at the same time. Abduction of the right arm (while the right elbow is bending) is responsible for extensor action. I think that the amount of right arm abduction required to apply extensor action depends on the checkrein action of the straight left arm complex - which consists of the i) the left arm and ii) the amount of "give" within the left shoulder socket (amount of attainable laxity between the left humeral head and the glenoid fossa) and iii) the amount the left scapula slides forward during left shoulder rotation. Golfers who have great flexibility (great ability to slide the left scapula forward and great ability to widen the space between the left humeral head and the glenoid fossa) will require a greater amount of right shoulder abduction per unit time - in order to maintain a constant level of extensor action throughout the backswing.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff,

Well, I just finished running your reply through my book of anatomy "translation matrix" and just as I suspected, he has no extensor action. In fact, he hardly Fans his right forearm. Look how his right upper arm and forearm are practically at 90 degrees to his torso at the top of his Backstroke. :(

He uses "Flexion Action". :naughty: He pushes with the left arm and simultaneously does a biceps curl with his right arm to raise the club to the Top of his backstroke. This keeps his elbow at his side throughout the backstroke so that his Pivot Controlled Hands will uncock the Right Elbow the correct amount during release and Impact while he flings the club in-line with his right forearm after impact.

He doesn't let that elbow get more that a few inches away from his elbow plane pivot controlled hands release. The only checkrein he has is his pivot knowing not to let that elbow get too far away.

I hope he doesn't read this.

Is he a Right Arm Swinger?

Anyway, great hand-eye coordination. :)

Regards,
Daryl

Greatest takeaway Thread Ever
 

Guy
I just wanted to say thanks,
This is one of the best Takeaway Threads I have ever read.
BTW
Daryl Thanks for great breakdown and Diagrams of The Takeaway.
How can I get a copy of the diagrams(drawing that you did).
Is there any chance you could send them to me please.
addampga@bigpond.net.au
Keep up the great work guys
Regards
Addam

Good to see you here Addam!!!

Kevin

Thanks Kevin
 

Hi Kevin
I love this place :golfer2:
Regards
Addam

Thanks Again Also
 

And Also a BIG THANK YOU :hello2: to the Member that sent me the Diagrams to my Email I really appreciate it alot.
Thank you
Addam

What kind of diagram?

Set up the "Lag" and get it On-plane
 

I keep rotating my Shoulders and keep my Left Arm straight to pull/drive the Power Accumulators and Club to the Top, during which the momentum of the Club gradually folds the Right Arm, turns both Forearms, cocks the Left Wrist, bends the Right Wrist and raises the Left Arm.:salut:

I’m shocked.

But if I can ask a couple of questions.

1) Your Swing Plane is determined by waist bend?
2) When does your elbow stop bending?
3) Doesn’t your Right Elbow Tend to be too high at release?
4) How do you control the amount of elbow bend to have your right forearm on plane at release?
5) Don’t your hands actually stay lower at the top of the swing when you bend your right elbow in this manner?
6) Does your Right Elbow get closer to your side at the Top?
7) If the above is true, then don’t you skip an acceleration stage? Arm/Hand?
8) Do you tend to take deep divots?
9) Do you feel like there is a Flip (Kink) in your wrists at release if you’re off plane a little?
10) How do you stop from cocking your right wrist?

Thanks

I am a hitter so I:

1. Address the ball in impact fix with my right hip already set back

2. Pull my right elbow straight back (lawn mower pull) while employing extensor action and keeping the flying wedge with right wrist.

Hey Greyguy

I feel much the same. But the reality, I think, is that correct plane line tracing in Startup requires a coordinated Right Forearm Fan, Right Elbow bend and Right shoulder move back towards the plane. A pure saw or lawn mower pull alone can get me off line and off plane.

I need to check this constantly. In my old swing I used to go outside the plane line with a non bending right elbow so it feels very elbow bendy to me now, but there is more to it than just that. To check it get a mag light and grip it golf like with the lens right beside the #3 Pressure Point. Find a long straight line and see how compliant you are with tracing a straight base line , plane line in Startup.

You can do it with just the right hand but adding the left provides the Check Rein Action of the left arm which really changes things. Basically the left shoulder is now established as the Center of Radius and the right elbow has to bend for the hands to move back.............unless you want a pure shoulder rotation takeaway, which you dont. Believe me, I had one for three decades or so. They were really in vogue in my youth. I guess I was young and subject to peer pressure.

Put your mind in your #3 and draw a straight line with it. Add a feeling of Lag to it on the way down , sustain it, nurse it right through the shot and you could win three tournaments in a row with just this. Alex Sloan did anyways.

Allow the "Law" to take care the rest.
 

And the Law will take care of the rest. :)

swing vs. hack
 

For sure, as long as it's not botherred, for example, by the intent of "Steer" or "Hack".

learn to clap on an incllined plane
 

To learn a solid takeaway, get into an address position without a club. Level right wrist. Right forearm flying wedge in place.

clap your hands, leaving the left hand and arm at impact. Let your right hip move 'back' (clear it)

As you make that clapping motion bigger, allow the right hand to turn so that at the 'top', you are in a karate chop 'on plane' position with the pinky side of the right hand.

practice returning both to a 'clap', as well as a 'karate chop' back to the left hand. The 'karate chop' will show you how the right shoulder moves down plane.

1. Should we lift with the shoulder or bend at the elbow or both?
2. If both, then how much elbow bend?
3. What Muscles do I use?
4. Which Muscles should I avoid? Why?
5. How far back?
6. How far Up?
7. Where should my Right Elbow be?
8. How Far should my Right Elbow extend from my Torso? My Hands?
9. Should we try and get the Left Arm to lay Flat across the chest or at 45 degrees or somewhere in-between?
10. When should we turn the Right Hand to the plane?
11. When do I know that I've reach Top? Geometrically?
12. When do I know that I've reached End? How can I tell?
13. Should I change anything for a Half Swing?

Why not just use the Magic of the Right Forearm with Fanning and EA? This single grouped procedure tells the whole story, for everyone, every time.

1. No guess-work.
2. Totally Hands Controlled Pivot.
3. No Planning.
4. Every question answered.
5. Fitted for every unique individual in the World.
6. Fits all body types, perfectly.
7. Male and Female - Unisex :confused1
8. Use with any Component or Component Variation or Combination.
9. Use with any Length Stroke.
10. Available in Hitting and Swinging Configuration.
11. Available Left and Right Handed. :confused1
12. One Price, receive both options.
13. Fits any lie or Stance options.
14. No Adjustments necessary to Fade, Draw, Slice or Hook the Ball or hit it dead straight?
15. No more Downstroke Black-out.
16. Cures Over-the-Top moves instantly.
17. Guaranteed to produce an on-plane Right Forearm at Release and Impact.
18. Helps prevent Clubhead Throwaway.
19. No need to Pause at the Top.
20. Will add 10 pounds to your Lag Pressure.
21. Why ask Why when you don't have to?

Precision G.O.L.F..

Magic of the Right Forearm ™ by Homer Kelley :)

You'll want to get that Right Arm Insured. Insurance sold Separately. :laughing9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzE5X...eature=channel

Anyone like this swing?

Magic of the Right Forearm: from the Darkside.

Thought that you would like it...really nice take away and great wrist position pre impact....thwump!

Impressive swing and compression. He looks like he stepped out of the Book. Great Release and Angled Hinge.

I like the hip motion at the take-away for the Hitter. It simplifies and supports and helps guide that right elbow from his centered hands at address. I don't understand why TGM 7th Edition has Delayed Hip Action.

Did he learn this on his own? I don't know how he could.

Love it!
 

Sweetest sound in golf.

Wow Daryl, do you think that much when you walk or drive? (if so, what kind of car do you drive so I can avoid you on the roads)

It really is far simpler than your post! :golf:

My thinking is clearer and insightful when I Drive or walk, but I'm sitting when I post, which explains a lot of things I write. :laughing9

Landrover: RangeRover. You only have to avoid me if you can follow me. :)

Bringing this thread back to life again.

At address I visualize the clubhead action through the ball to produce that shot. From there I try to establish or program the required pressurepoint alignments in the hands. And I try to reproduce those through impact.

Physically, I start the back stroke with the hands and the feet at the same time. Minimal pivot resistance in the early part of the back stroke is important to me. I've never been successfully starting the back stroke with the right forearm alone and I often have to be deliberate about starting the pivot together with the hands.

With the putter, I've been quite successful in visually monitoring the clubhead path throughout the stroke. Monitoring with real time adjustment. You have to see the line and you have to see the intended clubhead path on both sides of the ball - and you have to see the clubhead travel. It is a no-compromise solution where the end goal has 100% presedence over physics. Forget the hands, forget the arms, forget the pivot. Be the putter. It really works.

I suffered for a very long time with turning back with my arms too tight to my body and everything went further haywire from there.
After a day with Yoda and reading Forums and The Book quite a bit and a ton of assistance from Kev Carter I had an epiphanous (sp?) moment with hands controlled pivot. I simply put my hands on the shelf where I wanted them. My left shoulder went under. Right shoulder went back. Butt pointed at the target line for the first time in years. Playing golf in the fall just got better and better. Kev recently pointed out my right hip wasn't getting out of the way. It does now.
Now it is -20 at night and barely above zero during the day. I still practice putting those hands on the shelf down in the dungeon.

MB, does your RFT feel like it is more in front of your right hip?
 

Or if you are horiz. hinging, does the RFT seem to move more around and to the shirt seam ? :scratch:


Jerry, my friend, you can have an epiphany, but you may not use the word "epiphanous" since it is not a real word.

Patrick

Some questions about tracing and RFT
 

I am currently working on maintaining EA while tracing the plane line. There are two approaches I've used. Firstly focusing on the right forearm initiating the backswing. Secondly having both hands moving together to trace the plane line with my right index finger.

From reading this thread I am wondering with a RFT whether I should I start by clearing the right hip? I haven't been doing that consciously, just letting my body do what it wants to make way for the forearm to trace the plan back and then through.

I have been working with the both hands option as an alternative to the RFT because I find myself with an RFT having different amounts of left forearm rotation on the backswing and so I get inconsistency of face alignment at contact. I often get an open clubface at impact with RFT and not so much with taking both hands back together. When I take both hands back together - still tracing the plane line with my right forefinger - I get more consistency with squaring my clubface.

For me tracing the plane line is simply what was stated by someone earlier - pointing my finger at the plane line and then moving my hands back and then forward still pointing at that line, which is usually the target line. In a swing because the right forefinger is bent that means my first finger joint is doing the pointing because my finger is curled around the grip.

This is something I have only been working on for a week or so but I am finding that if I maintain EA while tracing the plane then I really don't think about anything else in the golf swing. Like some others have said I feel that I actually have a lot of EA, not the "straightening the cuff" level of push, quite a bit more than that. And so my swing feels a little stiff. But it isn't and I am getting very good power and so far good chipping and pitching results. Only had one session at the range full swing working on this, so still got to see how it goes. Promising start but the reality was that most of the shots I lost EA and my mind jumped out of my hands. So work in progress, but very positive short game results.

Very interesting post Weetbix! Where are you feeling the pressure of EA, PP #1?

I will be very interested in hearing updates as you go.

When you look at:

12-3-0 MECHANICAL CHECKLIST FOR ALL STROKES

Extensor action is mentioned at 9 of the 12 sections of the golf stroke, yet no one outside of those who understand the work of Homer Kelley teach it.

Good stuff Weetbix!

Kevin

Hi Kev. Haven't bumped into each other for a while. I hope you are well. Have a great Christmas.

Where do I feel the pressure of EA? I feel it through my right tricep, and on the top of the left thumb. But mostly the tricep pushing away from my body.

What I find about EA is that it actually helps a lot of things, including helping me not flip through impact. But I am still getting used to it. Today it reinforced that I need to keep my mind in my hands. I lose EA if I don't, and I get flippy.

So many things to work on!

I read this thread with great interest as I've struggled getting the club to "lay on the line" for years. Lynn and I have worked quite a bit on this, and during our school at Pine Tree last week, another contributor to being "under plane" in startup/backstroke came into view.

The golfer can have EA, minimal pivot (acquired motion) and still have trouble maintaining the clubshaft's alignment to the plane line; wrist conditions (Mechanical Checklist, Section 4/5, #16) also play a role. Remember the left wrist cock is a vertical motion. Go to impact fix - then cock the left wrist vertically. This gives you the wrist alignments at top (and at finish)

I found my left wrist arched as I moved from startup into backstroke. This caused the need for a compensating move at top. Life got much simpler lately when I corrected this error.

Moral to the story: Use 12-3 Mechanical checklist. The answers are there!

Thanks Fladan, great reminder. We need to use the tools Homer gave us! :salut:

Kevin

One Man's Journey
 

Great post, Dan. Just like your swing!

:salut:

thx dan
 

hi dan,

funny that you mentioned this. somehow the exact problem that i had when i saw lynn a couple of weeks back in atlanta...

after worked a little bit on it the pushes and left hocks seem to have no chance ..

but sure have to work on it for quite a while so the old habits don´t creep in again...

thx again for having me play your wonderful course there in florida

all the best to you and to you lynn of course

michael :)

Another fresh face. Welcome Michael and Dan!!!

Kevin

Friends Helping Friends
 

Glad you made it back to Munich safe and sound, Michael*. Long way to travel for some Yoda-time!

Interesting and coincidental that your five-day trip to Cuscowilla was followed by more time in South Florida. Glad Dan Malizia, PGA and Head Professional, Pinetree GC, could arrange for you to play the course. It really is a terrific layout -- perennially a Florida 'Top Five' -- and I knew you would enjoy it.

Thanks, Dan, for making it happen!

:salut:

* Michael Wirth is a German PGA teaching professional in Munich, Germany. He has made several trips to the U.S. in the past few years to train under some of the best known 'names' in golf. He also has earned the designation, Golf Stroke Engineering Master (GSEM) from The Golfing Machine, LLC.

Question....for those of you that employ the RFT, how do you ensure that the trunk coils properly?....feels (!) & thoughts will be greatly appreciated. Thx, sky72

Doo be, doobe do.
 

Hey sky72

For me personally it was a big big discovery courtesy of Lynn Blake that the Pivot and the Hands go in different directions in Startup. The RFT fans and bends (at the elbow , the "pickup") The right elbow lifts and lowers the Hands the Power Package up and down the Inclined Plane. Lifts and lowers, the Hands, (the #3pp, the entire Sweetspot Plane even) up and down the Inclined Plane while the trunk as you call it , the Pivot turns back or around.

Two vectors which netout with the Hands and Clubhead traveling on Plane. For me I clear my Right HIp back to a predetermined position where it semi locks , the first few inches of clubhead travel is motivated by this right hip clearing as my clubhead is hovered slightly off the ground. Lagging takeaway too. The pivot is the giant rotor of the golf swing, producing its angular or circular basic motion, its CF. After these first few inches of travel I immediately RFT (fan and bend) with the Right Elbow bending and lifting the Hands UP. It might be more common for a golfer to do them both at the same time but after experimenting I like to feel as if the hips move the clubhead just a tad. It gets rid of my old hands only forward press which arched my left wrist a tad.

Right Hip back, right elbow lifts up but only so far actively as the Hands sort of glide the last bit to TOP. No excessive lifting in other words. Momentum can do the last bit......well it must do the last bit for a good transition (sliding left while you take out the slack in the left arm whilst the left wrist is still cocking and the pressure point is getting loaded). The Hands and the Pivot (the Right Shoulder) though they travel different directions in Startup meet up on the same Inclined Plane at Top. A prearranged meeting place where the Right Shoulder and the Hands meet on the same Inclined Plane Angle. A TSP angle by definition and the perfect alignment from which the Right Shoulder can pull the Hands (sweetspot etc) Down Plane in Startdown .......all the time with a fully bent Right Elbow. To start the hands down on their own is a death move and the hackers tell tale startdown move.

This whole business might be Homers greatest insight, to my mind. For me it is anyways and it starts with that little clearing of the Right HIp and the two vectors of startup. The clearing of the Right Hip isnt so popular these days in golf instruction books or common golf literature but it is the stuff of Jones, Snead, Hogan etc etc etc. Not a frozen right hip in the bunch.

The Hands , the Right Shoulder they may seem oblivious to each others movements but they have a secret rendezvous arranged like......... Strangers in the Night.

Thank you Lynn for my very first lesson, when you showed me the Arm Set, the Cleared Hip and the Lagging Takeaway. The last 8 lessons werent too shabby either. More to come.

I have some questions, sir, if you don't mind, for my own struggles.

If you start at Impact Fix, are you staying there to start the swing or simply rehearsing that positon?

Does your RFT vertically cock your left wrist or were you consciously trying to stand the club up vertically, or were you dragging it with hip motion?

I'm not trying to insult you, just discover my own answers to stupid things I try to do from time to time.

As you come down to the ball and to Both Arms Straight and to Finish, how are you aiming your shot? Are you Tracing the BLP? Sighting down your forearm or covering your front toes?

Thanks.

ICT

Very smooth and well-spoken!
 

Lots to work on there, OB. Very helpful and interesting. Thanks.


ICT