Dude . . . . I got your medicine . . . after reading your last 3 posts . . . . drewitgolf has asked me to feed him the whole bottle . . . . open the hatch suferboy . .. .here comes a big tasty wave . . . . wipe out soon to follow . . .

We better get one of them forum sherrif types over here soon before they start dropping like flies. Yo Belle Starr can you please ban Mikey from posting in this forum . . . LBG may have some liability issues.

This thread is dead, time to put it to bed, enough has been said, everything has been read.

Mikey, take your medicine before Bucket brings his left over Halloween candy.

Not Involved - Or am I???
 

[quote=12 piece bucket;58062]

We better get one of them forum sherrif types over here soon before they start dropping like flies. Yo Belle Starr can you please ban Mikey from posting in this forum . . . LBG may have some liability issues.[/QUOT

It's way too entertaining when MikeO open his posts with comments like, "I'm not interested in getting involved in the debate" and then proceed to write one of his unibomber manifesto's. Besides, he's is also a self proclaimed computer hack, so I'm just waiting for him to ban himself.

I think you read that wrong . . . .it was "hack" with a "J". . .

Mike wrote-: "The point is that some "forearm" muscles are able to flex the forearm and some forearm muscles are able to extend the forearm. Those are the muscles that cross the elbow joint."

Mike is correct and I applaud his questioning comments. I shouldn't have been so didactic by making a general overarching statement about forearm muscles that is only generally true, but not absolutely true. I therefore need to qualify my statements with a more detailed explanation, which is always a good thing, because it promotes a better (more accurate) understanding.

Theoretically, it can be said that any foreram muscle that has its origin (or part of its origin) above the elbow joint can assist in flexion or extension of the elbow joint depending on its position and muscle bulk - even though that forearm muscle may have another primary function (moving more distal joints).

I have therefore produced two photos.

The photos are too large to embed in this message, so I will provide links.

Photo 1 - Forearm Muscles - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ForearmMuscles.jpg

Photo 2 - Origin and insertions of forearm muscles - http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Fo...lesOrigins.jpg

Take for example the aconeus muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion below the elbow joint. In that sense, it can be perceived to be an elbow extensor muscle. However, it is a comparatively tiny muscle relative to the triceps muscle and plays very little role in active elbow extension.

The same applies to the brachioradialis muscle. It has its origin above the elbow joint and its insertion near the wrist. It can definitely flex the elbow joint, but considering its relatively small bulk (compared to the biceps and brachialis muscles) and its far insertion point (which decreases leverage) it plays a far smaller role in elbow flexion that the upper arm muscles (biceps and brachialis muscles) which have great leverage because of their proximal forearm insertion points. Its main role is to produce a neutral forearm position when the forearm is extended in a non-neutral position (either supination or pronation) and the forearm is then flexed to a neutral position. It helps in rotating the forearm to a neutral position while assisting the biceps muscle in flexing the elbow.

Yodas Luke suggested that extensor digitorum and extensor carpi ulnaris may assist in elbow extension. I don't think that's correct and the photos show why I disagree - note that the extensor carpi ulnaris and extensor digitorum muscles actually arise from an origin below the elbow joint and its only their common extensor tendon that is attached to the humerus just above the elbow joint (at the lateral humeral epicondyle). They have very little leverage in extending the elbow joint - compared to the triceps muscle.

The extensor muscle that has its origin above the elbow joint is the long head of extensor carpi radialis, but its position and small bulk suggests that it has little role to play in elbow extension.

Look at the sheer size of the triceps muscle and the triceps tendon, and consider its advantageous point of insertion. You can then see why its the dominant muscle in elbow extension.

Jeff.

Attachment 1509

Bucket contemplates his next post.

Bagger rises from the dead? Only post in a month and he threatens to ban me! Then Bucket jumps on the band wagon!? This is too much for me - I'm quitting this forum and never, NEVER coming back!!!!

OK, I'm back JACK! Bring it!

Mike you can't leave, I haven't been banned yet.

Attachment 1510
Mike O views my reply.

"Contemplates" would pre-suppose "Thinking" - show me any post where you would say that Bucket has applied rational thought- You Won't, You Can't, It's not there!! The Man's a LUNATIC!!!!!! A Goofball!!! Him and Fort- Please this is outrageous! You haven't got it! - Please view the Tomasello Tapes - Australian Series - Chapter 2 and 5 - view them 100 times and then have Bucket and Fort get back to me - it's all there! Now WHERE IS MY MEDICINE!!!??????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said Jeff- No problem from here. Although I kind of liked it when you finished with "If anyone disagrees with my opinion please comment" ;-)

Party Pooper! Joy Killer! What's with you - Bucket and I - just starting to have some fun and you have to call the thread dead?! Do me a favor -record your poetic post on a cassette player "This thread is dead, time to put it to bed, enough has been said, everything has been read" and then play it backwards - you'll hear the hidden message - something about Bucket, Mike O. arriving at your range and giving you a Wedgy and Woody- the signal's a little weak and it is difficult to decipher-!
Where is my Medicine!!

"I think the high state of martial art, in application, must have no absolute form. And, to tackle pattern A with pattern B may not be absolutely correct."

"Some people are tall; some are short. Some are stout; some are slim. There are various different kinds of people. If all of them learn the same martial art form, then who does it fit?"

"True observation begins when one is devoid of set patterns."

"Be water my friend..."

Quoted from Bruce Lee...

[quote=Bagger Lance;58068]If you just would bump my posting total from 953 to 1000 - then I wouldn't need to post all these ridiculous posts!!!

Please subtract 953 posts from Mike's account for being off his meds.

Good Point Grasshopper - but to get to no absolute form one must first think and learn all forms- only then Grasshopper - can one own the free flight. As Bruce Lee did. "The view along the way to the top is different than the view from the top"- Mike O. 2008

When you can take the golf ball from my hand it will be time for you to go.
Attachment 1511

And when I go I'll take your freakin clubs, your car, your clothes!- Count on it!

Of course...I supposed all masters here already mastered a certain forms...

what I've read
 

As I said, I'm not the expert in this. These are things that I've read on the subject.

this just in.....HK Bio
 

Don't know if you all have seen this.....should be interesting

Journalist and author of THE SEVENTH AT ST. ANDREWS, Scott Gummer’s HOMER KELLEY’S ODYSSEY, the untold story of Homer Kelley, a genius in engineering and an advocate for a scientifically perfect golf swing, showing the impact of his book The Golfing Machine on the game of golf, and relating the story of Ben Doyle, the teacher whom Kelley selected to translate and teach his methods to golfers.

I can't wait to read this!!!

Kevin

If we want to stick to one version surely we must take Mr Kelly's advice from chapter fifteen 'AXIS TILT'. To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips. That surely points to a lower body startdown?

Startdown Confusion...
 

Don't agree....the hips would move the shoulders under 10-20-B, 10-20-D, 10-20-D and 10-20-B combo, and 10-20-E. It appears 10-20-C would require 10-15-C. The startdown would come from the right forearm, the left forearm, the right forearm and the left forearm or the left wrist. For 10-20-C the start down would come from the right shoulder.

Without the Tomasello 12 DVD set you're going to have a hard time making the connection.

BTW, there is no Chapter 15 in the TGM text...but there is a component 15.

DG

RJW

I think that you are right. If one starts the downswing with pelvis shift-rotation movement, that lower body action moves the lumbar spine left-laterally and increases the degree of secondary axis tilt. Then, when the upper torso subsequently rotates perpendicularly around the spinal tilt (which has increased), the right shoulder can move downplane. A golfer who starts the torso rotation with an upper torso turn (without a preceding lower body shift-rotation movement) can only turn the shoulders more horizontally which predisposes to an OTT move.

Jeff.

If you rotate the hips at the beginning of the downswing your shoulders will move outward....an over the top move. Watch Letter series video number #3.

DG

DG - You wrote-: "If you rotate the hips at the beginning of the downswing your shoulders will move outward....an over the top move."

I agree with you. A golfer should never rotate the pelvis at the start of the downswing. A golfer should first shift the pelvis left-laterally in a hip squaring action before rotating the pelvis in an assertive left hip clearing action. If the pelvis rotates back 45 degrees during the backswing, then there needs to be a 135 degree pelvic rotation to get to a finish position where the pelvis is square (parallel) to the target. At the start of the downswing, there is a hip shift-rotation movement that shifts the pelvis left-laterally and squares the pelvis. The left-lateral pelvic shift movement that squares the hips (to a sit down look) also involves a 45 degree pelvic rotation. However, the left-lateral shift component dominates the lower body movement. The true left hip clearing action - a further 90 degree rotation of the pelvis - occurs in the later downswing.

One can clearly see Ben Hogan's shift-rotation movement of the pelvis in his initiating downswing action in this video lesson. Note how the pelvis squares in the early downswing (in his pump-it drill action).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Watch how the lower body movement causes his right shoulder to move downplane and causes his clubshaft to shallow-out.

Jeff.

Jeff,

You can do what you like...if you think that's right go with it. Per the Golfing Machine, I'm going to go with Tomasello's instruction. I wouldn't agrue with a lower body startdown for hitting but not for swinging. Hogan appears to be a hitter with his irons from the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf Match against Snead. Even with his Driver his hands do not get above shoulder high...Tommy's agruement was if your hands got above shoulder high the start of the downswing shouldn't happend with the lower body. Sam Snead's hands are above shoulders at least for his woods and long and mid-irons. His swinging action is consistent with 12-2-0 and Tommy's instruction.

DG

DG - You wrote-: "Tommy's agruement was if your hands got above shoulder high the start of the downswing shouldn't happend with the lower body."

Tell that to the present World Long Drive Competiton winner - Jamie Sadloski

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-5zCB4Lzw

Or, you could offer that same advice to Jason Zuback, another World Long Drive Competition winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kp2J8gW1qw

I once asked Jason how he started his downswing and he stated that all he thinks of is starting the downswing with an ultrasfast lower body shift rotation movement.


Jeff.

DG
You're right, I'm having a really hard time making the connection. The only visualization I have is running out of right arm before the hands reach Impact Position-an automatic Throwaway. BTW, the seventh edition has not only a chapter 15 but also an Index or chapter 16. RJW.

10-14-b
 

Sounds like the recommended 10-14-B, slide with a delayed turn.

At this time, I don't have time to go through the material I have on Tommy that makes the arguement on starting the downswing with the right arm versus the lower body. The arguement includes Jack Nicklaus and it's a good one.

For now, the GI 1991 interview states it's all terribly wrong (lower body startdown for swinging). I believe I sent you the interview.

DG

Lack of Evidence
 

I sorry Mr. DG I just can't put any credence in what you say. I met with tommy a number of times over the years. At first I thought I might review my own video tapes of my encounters with tommy to see what you were talking about. I have also studied the book with Alex Sloan, had lessons with Ben Doyle, Greg McHatton and Bobby Schaeffer. I just find your comments lack credibility. What is your handicap and where do you play. Where can the members of this forum see the information from any DVD's, VHS tapes, notes or other Tomasello sources. Bring them foward. I researched TGM world thoroughly this year and came to the conclusion that Lynn's extensive knowledge of both Homer and his writings was on target. I know it is accurate, I can trust it, can go to the bank on it and more importantly it is all I need to achieve success. I know Lynn's curriculm vitae but I don't know yours. I am tired of this thread and hopefully it will be ended. I don't feel there is anything for me to gain by researching by own tapes of tommy. Beside I would rather ask one of the many living authorized instructors who can provide more accurate infomation than someone trying to parse the comments of a dead one.

You know many of the living authorized instructors may lack the details that Tom didn't....I have provided my videos to this website why don't you??? I'm not a TGM authorized instructor nor am I a PGA professional....but I am a former student of Tommy's who would like to find as many sources of his instruction to complete my TGM education. I believe Tommy is the most reliable source for correct TGM instruction along with the man himself Homer Kelly....it's funny Alex Sloan called Tom Tomasello the greatest golf instructor in the world....it's on audio tape. I will end my search once I find sources who have Tommy's instruction on audio or video per Tommy's Swinging School, Hitting School and Advanced School. Let the search begin...Yeee Hawww.

Oh, btw, in addition to studying with Tom Tomasello, I have studied TGM with GSEM Rick Rounsaville who studied with GSEDs Ben D., Alex S. and Greg M. and George K.

My source of info comes from Tom Tomasello....I limit my opinions about the golf swing to nill. So what you're really saying is...one of the closest GSED's to Homer is unreliable. Go Figure...I'm sorry if you might have to change your golf swing to be incompliance with the GOLFING MACHINE. It's not my fault.

Please don't call me Mr. DG....that sounds so lame.

DG

DG, i don't think it is fair for you to continually refer to the TT interview if you won't share what you are referencing so others can see for themselves. i have now PM'd you 5 times with nothing coming of it. saying that you have already sent it doesn't cut it really. i have a lot of faith in the email courier, he's a reliable guy.

if anyone else has it i'd greatly appreciate a pm and i'll give you my email.

I have sent that interview to hundreds of members....I have a sent email that I sent you the interview unless you made a mistake in the address you gave me.

I just sent another copy....

DG

Bambam Is Waiting . . .
 

mrose,

When you get it, PM Bambam, and he will tell you how to get it to him. Then, we'll put it up for all to read.

:salut:

DG

I have now spent a lot of time trying out TT's "right arm throw" action.

I agree with you on one critical point - that it must start with an arm action and not a lower body action. TT's throw action is to throw the clubshaft "down-and-out" on the plane and to get the clubshaft moving down-and-out towards the ball before the body moves. I agree that the body must move secondarily/reactively to the throw. I can also understand how the body musn't move before the throw because that will predispose to throwing the club out in an OTT manner.

There is one major technical flaw in TT's description. He talks of uncocking both wrists in the throw action - activated by the right forearm. However, the right wrist never cocks in the backswing, it only bends backwards (dorsiflexes) - because the right arm flying wedge is always at a right angle to the left arm flying wedge at the top of the backswing. Therefore, when TT states that one throws the club from the top, the right wrist cannot uncock because it was never cocked up at any time point during the backswing. TT demonstrates a right arm throw action - using only his right arm - and it looks like he is uncocking his right wrist in an ulnar direction. However, that is not technically possible in a full golf swing - because if the flat left wrist is uncocking "on plane" and the right arm flying wedge is right-angled opposed to the uncocking left arm flying wedge, then the right wrist must perform an action that is 90 degrees opposed to the "on plane" uncocking motion of the left arm flying wedge. That obviously cannot be a right wrist uncocking motion. So, TT is wrong on two technical accounts - i) the right wrist never cocks upwards during the backswing and ii) any right wrist action must be at right angles to the down-and-out planar movement of the uncocking left arm flying wedge (uncocking left wrist). That right wrist action (if it occurred) would therefore have to be a palmar flexion action, and I suspect that even you wouldn't recommend that the right wrist should actively palmar flex in a swinger's action. Or would you?

Jeff.

Jeff,

Trust me Tommy doesn't cock the right wrist on the backswing. Nor does he try to uncock the right and left wrist at the beginning of the downswing (he karate chops with the right forearm...re-read the last paragraph of 7-3, with that karate chopping action he won't uncock that right wrist, it will stay bent and level because Tommy has trained himself to execute the Magic of the Right Forearm properly.). However, the right and left wrist go to an uncocked position post impact. Ya got to put his instruction into context...which you failed to do. At this point, I recommend you re-watch the whole Chapter series then watch the whole Letter series....you're getting close to figuring it out. I wouldn't stop. You'll start to see how good Tommy is at getting a golfer to use his right arm for swinging and hitting without generating a throw-away condition.

DG

Things And Places
 

DG,

The first three Sections of the Downstroke are Start Down (8-7), Downstroke (8-8 ) and Release (8-9).

The Action you describe is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It is a defined Stroke Pattern Component (#20) Variation used to Trigger the Release of the Power Package. Accordingly, it is employed at Release (8-9), not at the "beginning of the downswing" (8-7).

You do your man a disservice to continue to assert otherwise.

:(