OK, with feeling this time.

Nicklaus

Opening shoulders = not on plane

Define Tilt early......tilt away from the target? On plane

Tilt toward the ground? Possible to stay on plane but tricky

Hogan

Opening shoulders = off plane

Hogan's position can tolerate a tighter gyroscope, if that is what you mean.

Although I really can't imagine Hogan spinning out. Fast hips? The fastest.

But he pivoted, never spun. Are we getting closer?

I may have to call in Mike O for backup.......

UPP in snowy Ohio

Ok . . . the base line deal for Nicklaus is shorter right? So he HAS TO MOVE THE CLUB DOWN more and keep it from shooting out early. So his right shoulder moves down earlier than Hogan to keep the club going down and on plane.

Hogan on the other hand has a longer base line and has to turn open more to keep the hands on the flat plane. If he tilts early with his hands that deep and low (flat) . . . the club will get waaaaay inside and point well outside the plane line (under plane). Opposite for Nicklaus if he turns early . . . he's over plane.

So an instructor can say yo dude you need to get Axis Tilt get the shoulder going down plane NOW!!! Throw the drunk off . . . tilt the tea cup . . . That will work . . . depending right?

Agreed
 

Bucks,

We agree. I will say 9 out of 10 players I know can tolerate more tilt rather than less. Very few are as horizontal as the Hawk. Starting that right shoulder under plane is recoverable. Once it gets over top, that is a rocky road to good golf. Finally I understand what you were after with alignments in the pivot. Thank you.

UPP in snowy Ohio

It is all about the plane!!!!

Da plane, Boss, Da plane!!!:read:


todd

Hold up! That ain't all of 'em!!! We ain't done yet . . . we just did RELATION TO THE PLANE ANGLE . . . we got way more stuff to cover. Plane Line, Hand Path, Grip and Face, Shaft Lean, Trajectory . . . don't run off.

Now I got a question for you . . .

You can't recover from over? Why can't you? But you can from under? How can you?

Please provide your analysis of the recovery or lack of recovery . . .

Word!

And . . . those 9 out of 10 . . . would you learn 'em to Tilt? OR flatten their plane so they can use the turning open? Or just hand them a tennis racket or a jar of cole cream?

Once you come over your momentum is going to take the clubhead outside the line. You are already in your downswing and no one I know can reroute that quick. (I never have had the pleasure of seeing Bucks in person, you may be the exception. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure you are an exception.) If the right shoulder comes under plane the player just comes a little more from the inside than ideal, but hitting the inside quadrant should be a doable thing. Those 9 out of 10, and I am in that category, have to look, look, look at their action and develop a pivot action that is as close to on plane as they can, erring on the down. Or else keep hacking. Or else take up fishing.

Back to ya. Anyone else, please join in here. Thanks,

UPP in cold Ohio

Chiming in
 

Upp,
You asked me to Chime in on this thread. However, I don't have much to say. I think trying to dig deeper into the relationships is always a good thing-so I like that about this thread. Not sure how far you can go within the Golfing Machine concepts- to learn a little more about the pivot i.e. the information is limited and doesn't provide a wide enough platform or basis for running with the ball and growing what you have there. Homer does list pivot components and the basic variations - with the realization that you may have anything in the entire range of possibilities as your component location or relationship. But overall - it's somewhat limited. Homer says in 12-3 "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control The Pivot (9-1)." That leaves two directions to go in learning more- wider and wider concepts on "how the Hands control the pivot" and narrower and narrower concepts in regards to breaking down the pivot into parts and understanding the details of those parts, and relationships among those parts of the pivot. I certainly have some thoughts but it's not a fully integrated theory yet and wouldn't add to your thread here.

Bucket's on a good path in that he's raising the discussion level and also looking at what relationships are valid and which ones are not valid - and why. But if you were stuck in a 6 x 6 holding cell and only had a computer - what would you do?

Chiming in again
 

UPP,
Now if you needed help beatin down bird breath! I'm here to help!
Rule #1 - If he starts a thread- it will end in a beat down bar fight! Guaranteed!
Rule #2- He's ugly. Why do I say that? - just sounds right to me.
Rule #3- It's just about impossible to thread-jack a Bucket thread but that should not stop you from trying!

Those are the three imperatives as I see them.

As usual PM me with any and all solutions to this problem. Whoever sent me that PM with the mud, chicken, car, and vinegar idea- sorry but it was just too sick- I think it was DG- nevermind- not sure. However, we are modifying it for the October reunion- any and all ideas to rid this site of this greased chicken will be accepted!

Snead explained the golf swing "you have to go down and up at the same time"

Michael . . .

Please don't do this to my thread. It is rude. We're having a very serious discussion here. You and your little friends need to keep your juvenile humor contained somewhere else. You should be ashamed of your behavior. You always obfuscate the true message. People are trying to learn. You are being purposefully disruptive.

Now please refrain from this activity or remove yourself from the forum.

You have attempted more jacks lately than when the JC Penny Catalog shows up at Ted's house. Learn from the master (pun intended).

I have no idea what all of this ridiculous pivot talk is about, you just RFP the sumbi#$# and then drop that magical right forearm on it, done deal.

As good as it gets
 

That explanation sounds about as good as it gets!

UPP in freezing Ohio

Thank you!

Mike O to the rescue!

I appreciate your divergent views on the pivot. In this case I sense Homer knew more than he left us with. And we are left to sort it out. Sorting it out with the Bucket? Priceless!

Count me in for the Fall get together!

UPP in freezing Ohio

Anyone who has learned, schemed. or figured out a way to wear out his clubs on the sweet spot has got to know more than me. Help!

UPP in cold Ohio

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Many golfers think that the Pivot is like a three stage rocket. That’s the problem. It’s not. It’s not how fast you can turn, it’s that you must keep turning and add Pivot Action.
Pivot doesn’t control direction (unless you have Pivot Controlled Hands). In Hands Controlled Pivot, the Hands sense alignments and the Pivot responds. Jeff Hull was saying this earlier or in another thread. He won’t let the Pivot take-over or do its job if he senses that it’s taking his hands, club, out of alignment.

Daryl,

I agree you must keep the left hip turning, but don't discount speed of the action. It is the speed that activates the strech - shorten cycle of effective pivots. For reference, please check out Chris Welch's kinetic link work on the net. If you can't find it, our man Bucks has the link!

UPP, going to the Golf Show in Ohio :golfcart:

The Pivot CAN DOES and SHOULD influence direction . . . Right Shoulder Location is HUGE . ..

But the Shoulders do have crucial On Plane functions – synchronizing and aligning the Pivot Mtion and Thrust with those of the Power Package (Chapter 6). “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by titling its axis – the spine. See 7-14. In this area the Left Shoulder is helpless. The geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with Right Shoulder, for there are no guide lines for Left Shoulder control of the Right Shoulder. Therefore, variations in Right Shoulder location will vary the Left Shoulder location at Impact and, consequently, the Low Point location as well as the Angle of Approach (2-N).

Being a part of the Pivot and the Power Package, the Right Shoulder must reconcile them by moving with the greatest precision for thrust, speed, direction and distance. (7-3) So the Right Shoulder does not flap around haphazardly – it has many responsibilities. And variations in its Impact location will vary the Right Elbow’s Impact Bend and so may alter the Impact alignment of the Clubface. See 6-E and 7-23. The long Backstroke Shoulder Turn produces CIRCLE Path (10-23-E) and ARC of Approach procedures. The short Shoulder Turn produces “LINE” types of Delivery Path (10-23) and “ANGLE” of Approach procedures (2-J-3). So – if the Shoulder Turn is too great and takes the Hands inside the proper Angle of Approach (2-J-3), then you must shift to an Arc of Approach Delivery Line to “clear the Right Hip” (2-J-3). Or get an unwanted Pull. OR A SHANK. Otherwise, the Three Dimensions will become un-correlated including Compression Leakage (2-C-0) and an obvious struggle. As it goes back, so it tends to come down – because of the differences in Loading Characteristics (Components 11, 19, and 22).

Ok, I just read the Theory. He's Clueless.

That stuff is really good with regards to generation of angular velocity . . .

BUT (and this is the part where you ran off) . . . we (hopefully) play a game of speed . .. AND . . . PRECISION.

That cat's work could be really good if it could be blended to the hand paths and plane angles and shifts (or not) . . . he may already have that.

It was really good . . .

We have to alignment the forces and motion . . .

So how would you say we do that?

Ok, ya. But the Hands sense alignments and for them to control the Pivot is a superior procedure than Pivot Controlled Hands.

Not if your Pivot is on crack.

That's funny! Watch the video . . .

I think that as far as providing rotary force to the power package...it is like a 3 stage rocket... just that once the rocket has stopped powering the next stage....it still has a role in responding to the desired and pre-programmed path of the hands.... so it keeps moving in response to alignment needs and not power needs.

:golf:

see what people make of this guys pivot and power package ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh184bHGkpM

Hogans Hips are more open than the bubble model.

Their theory is anti-Pivot Lag. The Pivot train is like a three stage rocket in the sense that sequencing occurs but that’s where the comparison ends.
If the first gear slows, then a chain reaction of slowing follows. I agree that Hip motion first must overcome the inertia of the upper body and Club, and that may seem like work because of the effort, and when it subsides people think the pivot has done its job, but I don’t think the turning motion and Right Hip should slow.

How'd you get them balloon's blown up that good? Can you make me a hat like that?

I don't think the dude is saying you MAKE it slow but he's isolating the pelvis so it don't wobble around. The pivot is made up of joint segments seeking their in-line relationship just like the power package. . . . Homer got this . . .Pivot Lag.

What's our disagreement?

We agree with Pivot Lag
The Right Side plays a key role
The Pivot should not disrupt Alignments

I like Mrodocks comment. 'just get the right forearm on plane'.:)

Who is this guy from Australia? Is this something new? Do I live in a closet?

Daryl,

If you start bringing closets into these posts, Mike O and the Bucket will go off on about a 50 post threadjack. I have seen it . It is not pretty.

Back to regular programming...

UPP in cold Ohio

The sweet spot is the hosel, right? Sure feels sweet so I assume I'm right.

Buzzard
 

Listen Buzzard breath! Don't be crapping on my boy Bucket- I did a little investigation and in 2 1/2 weeks he's posted more than you have since you joined on 01-20-2005. Now what does that say? :confused1 That's right- Bucket is one sick puppy!

Now for the question of the day- Where did I pull this post from? Hint: :book:

For the content of the day- Contrary to common golf forum belief- "Feel is always real"- It's understanding how and why it's real that is important. So, when you change your by-line grasshopper- I know it will be time for you to leave and go out into the world. Until then - keep thinking that the stick that is halfway in the water - is bent, or that you can't trust your senses because they "mis-lead" you and that when the tree falls in the forest- there is no sound unless someone is there to hear it.

The "blobman" is apparently based on Hogans swing... it (I think) comes from Greg McHatton (...He attended Homer's class with Yoda I think?)... based on some research done apparently looking at Hogans swing in the Shell World of Golf Hogan-Snead match.... or so I heard.... it is on youtube posted by someone else... i am not trying to advertise or take credit for anything other than finding the clips and sticking them together!

Hey dork . . . you can't just blow up the dude's world . . . and then walk off. It's like you used to do those cows at the state fair tour you did . . . love 'em and leave 'em . . . you feel good but what about the cow? All crushed . . .

Tell HIM WHY!!!

Two down
 

Two down.....48 to go. Buzzard breath? Not bad, Mike O.

I knew the "c" word would have you both out here, like white on rice!

It may be a while before we get back to any regular programming. But that is .............the way it is here in cyberspace. And I, for one, like it!

UPP in back from the golf show and bought nothing Ohio

How was the show? What kind of cool stuff ya see?

The show
 

The show was consistent with others we have here annually. Some good deals on last years stuff, not much cutting edge merchandise. Lots of shoes and windshirts. Before the internet, these shows were about the only way to get "deals" for the average Joe. Long Driver Brian Pavlet was there, along with a trick shot artist.......did not get his name. Hank Haney is coming in today and I think tomorrow. I wish it was our Youthful Green Guy instead. Maybe next year....

UPP in snowy Ohio

Splish Splash In the Fountain of Youth!
 

:shock:

That does it!

I'm gonna color my hair, go on a diet, start working out and do the botox thing.

I will not go gently into that good night!

:3gears:

Starting next month . . . :laughing9

I don't force feed cows! If you disagree then tell me why and I'll try to prove my point! If you agree or don't care - then there is no reason for me to ramble on incoherently! By the way Bucket- I find it rude and politically insensitive to bring up Cows just because UPP is from Ohio! Why all this anger with the Cow versus Pig thing- hasn't your therapist explored this subject matter with you - doesn't it all come from U mama?