The destination...the journey?
 

Bucket,
This thread kind of diverted into a discussion about putting and then died after you posted your plan. What were your results? Did you reduce your handicap?

I was very interested in this thread, because my KNOWLEDGE of G.O.L.F. has increased exponentially over the last three years, but has not translated into a great improvement in scoring. I believe that if I can learn to PLAY using your list (instead of PRACTICING my way around the course and telling myself that everyone else is better than me), it will lead to lower scores. My mechanics have a lot of room for improvement, but I play with some guys who have much worse mechanics than I do, but consistently score better. It seems that, when PLAYING (getting the ball in the hole), the mental side is much more important than mechanics. I am interested in your progress.

Holla back!

So far . . . not so good . . . . I have been practicing . . . just not playing any golf at all for the most part. Only 3 rounds in at this point. Handicap is pretty much not moved . . . BUT I have a much better short game. And my swing is getting better. I look for a break out year . . . as soon as I can play.

Keep gettin' better!
 

Thanks, man.
Keep us posted.
I am looking forward to a breakout year, too. I do not want to have a good looking swing; I want to shoot lower scores.

Break-out year??? :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Ya know, I'm just givin ya a hard time. :laughing9

Get out more!
 

Infrequent rounds is a true handicap. I'm not saying that you gotta play a ton, but fewer rounds tends to inflate the value you place on individual rounds, holes and even shots. I think infrequents rounds is one of the reasons for the pitiful slow play. I think shot inflation is a better way to go...although that can become extreme as well. The best example of this is of course the PGA Tour...the pace car as it were. I know there is a lot of money at stake, but ohmygosh (valley girl tone, if you please!) some of those guys are slower than tree sap in January. There is a cadence to golf...a general time span that is generous enough to allow for individual internal timers. I think carts have done even more than Tour pace of play to disrupt the cadence of the game. I loath carts...but given the rather long walks in between some holes these days!

You gotta get out more, Bucket! Even for nine hole knockabouts. I for one have a personal interest in your progress...given your selfless contributions to our progress...and even just for the endorphins!

This is a very astute observation. When my buddy and I (who is in the same boat as I on rounds played) get to about 15 or 16, we always say "man sux that this will be the last time we play for 2 or 3 weeks." It definitely is in the back of your mind on about every shot . . . this is the last freakin' time I'll get to play this hole for 2 weeks I better hit a gurd'un. And the bad thing about it is . . . I LIVE ON A GOLF COURSE!!!

Plus you get soooooo keyed up to play. I usually stay up really late the night before I play so I don't lay in the bed thinking about playing. Plus I never get to warm up because I got to take care of kids and crap before I go. It's not ideal for sure.

I have changed my perspective on playing now. I used to just think "I gotta get out there and shoot in the 70's. I gotta . . . I gotta . . . I gotta. . . " Now I just am happy to be playing and hitting golf shots. I played 9 last week and walked by myself. Didn't keep score. Didn't even putt. Just hit 3 or 4 shots from different spots. You just gotta love hitting shots.

I'm getting better . . . just not reflected in the scores . . . YET.

Oh . . . I had to pay for my wife and kid to swim with them endorphins . . . they are EXPENSIVE man . . . ain't nuthin' but a cute carp. Unbelievable.

Recreational Golf
 

Hi Bucket. For me, I don't care much for recreational golf. Mostly
I play to help my practice. Want to figure out the nuts and bolts
of the golf swing. Then I will make my move. At 68 Ha! but still have
dreams. Frank McGee, the owner/director of the Moonlight Mimi tour
has an interesting observation. Aspiring Drumman Futures tour players
should play his development tour until they are ready for the LPGA
tour. When the girls shoot par nothing is said. When they shoot over
par then they get a thumbs down. When under par they get praise.
When their game is consistanly par or under then they can try for the
LPGA where they can make a living. One really needs the game before
trying the higher levels. One time Hogan went to the tent and said
that he had to pull out of a tournment because of health reasons.
The director said, "I am sorry that you can not play", then Hogan
said, "thats all right, half the field can play either".

For me, playing is mostly a way to learn how to score better and
get your handicap down. Not the real place to find the geometry
and physics of the swing that Homer Kelley aspired too. I will bet
that Homer would never have developed the Golf Machine if he
had spent most of his time playing golf with his buddies. Haing in
there Bucket, your improving insite into the golf swing is due to
your study, not your trying to get into the 70s or to lower your
handicap.

Not sure what exactly you're getting at, but if you're saying that playing is somehow bad for your game, you are waaaay off base. While true that Homer probably didn't develop TGM through "his time playing golf with his buddies," it has no relevance to Bucket's aspirations. He's not trying to write a book or get further insight into the swing, he's trying to improve his scores.

Better scores
 

Hi Holeout. I guess that Bucket will have to tell us what he is
trying to do. I get the impression, after meeting Bucket, that he
wants to do something really great. Bet he really wants to take
his score low. When Hogan felt that he did not have a
swing to be the best, he came home to find out why. He did
not just stay on the tour playing hoping that the tour would
make him better. I cannot see why Bucket is working so hard
to understand the swing just to play a little better with his
buddies. It would be much easier to find some buddies that shot
a little higher score.

Guess that I opened a "Bucket" of worms with my post.

Donn

Euclid and Kronk
 

I am probably missing the geometry of your point! I have discovered over time that if you don’t get it intuitively , then you must get it mechanically...then know it so well that it appears to be intuitive.

The best example I can come up with is the plane. Every shot has a target line. The plane of every stroke must be pre-selected with relationship to that target line…depending on the shot at hand. The stroke then must comply to that plane…with visual reference to its base line. There are many things that champions have in common…a good one is their ability to visualize a straight line as vividly as if they had created a base line with neon spray paint for each and every shot.

My experience both personal and in observing others is that few actually pick targets! The highest compliment you can pay yourself as a player is to select a target…albeit by faith! I find that compatible alignments (geometry) is the more cerebral and useful of the twins, the other being its brutish sibling, physics. I call them Euclid and Kronk! Other than sustaining lag pressure and extensor action, I do not give much thought to physics , but I focus heavily on the geometry, especially before I pull the trigger. The evidence of this at the highest levels is the meticulous way in which pros organize themselves at address. Homer Kelley gave us proper and correct geometric relationships. I mean…just soling the club correctly per 2-J-1 highlights the primacy of alignments, right? So what I am trying to say is that we take the geometry to the course and verify it to some degree on each and every shot. When people tell players not to think about IT I take that to mean don’t think about the motion, not the geometry. I think the physics flows through a conduit, namely the geometry. I say think about nothing else but alignments…and not just limited to standing square etc.

Not a criticism to what you said, just a piggy-back attempt.

Donn,

I think it's pretty clear what his goal is...

In order to get to scratch, there is a lot more to it than just "the geometry." While it's fantastic to know so much information (I am honestly envious of most everyone on this forum who can understand so much of TGM), there's more to playing the game than just making sure your alignments are all in order. There is also more to improving your game than just hitting practice balls, no matter what area of your game you are working on.

Developing your skills to the level you desire is important; you can't shoot 68 if you aren't good enough to shoot 68 :). But having the skills required to shoot 68 is completely different from actually being able to shoot 68.

Here's to PLAYING well
 

holeout,
This is what I was getting at in when I said:
It seems that there is an UNSEEN component (call it mental, spiritual, emotional, or whatever) that is more important in WINNING (or PLAYING well) than having perfect SKILLS. Not that skills are not important, as you said already, you must have the SKILLS to shoot 68, but PERFORMING at that level requires something beyond physical skills.

I think that is what HB was eluding to when he responded to Bucket's plan:
Skills give you a baseline. The human WILL or SPIRIT is what ultimately determines your limit, whether it is to go beyond your abilities or to not play up to them.

In relation to skills, also, I think that this is all connected to the INCUBATOR (Chapter 14). If you really BELIEVE that you can do something, and put forth a reasonable amount of effort, your COMPUTER will find a way to make it happen. Your SKILLS will be developed according to the picture your mind and will have painted. They actually feed each other. As skills develop, the picture becomes clearer. Confidence builds, which pushes you to refine your skills to a higher level. It works in reverse, also (like Duval and others).

I like what Tomasello emphasised in the videos. The only shot that matters is the one you are getting ready to hit. You cannot change the past and you cannot do anything in the future. He talked about where Homer said in Ch. 14 that censure has no place. There is no benefit from beating yourself up when you mess up. You can learn from it, but you must maintain the attitude that the mess up does not define your ability. We have all hit good shots. The key is believing that we are the kind of golfer that hits good shots, not that we are bad golfers who get lucky sometimes. Like Bucket said:
This really applies to EVERY shot, not just putts. Tomasello also talked about "calling the shot" before you make it. Describe, out loud, the target, trajectory, path you want. Let that be the last thing you put into your mind before you swing. Breathe. Make the motion. Nilsson and Marriott talk about this, too, in Every Shot Must Have a Purpose. I am learning that I have been a big roadblock to my own progress. That is changing this year.

Ellis,

Couldn't agree with you more! My posting was in response to the (seemingly) opposing views that Donn had about getting out and actually playing a lot of golf, as opposed to just practicing all the time. The only area that you and I seem to disagree is the manner in which you acquire not only the skills to play well, but the ability to actually shoot good scores. You do, however, raise some good points with regards to what HB said about "act(ing) like you know what you are doing." Hopefully he can chime in too if he has an opinion on the matter. I'd be interested to hear it.

That being said, I feel that a big part of the reason tour pros are able to do things like:

- come back from a birdie with a bogey
- come back from a bad nine holes to shoot a good one, salvaging your score
- continue firing at pins when you are already 7 under
- "get it in the house" when you're off your game
- follow up a 32 with another 32 (or 31)

is because they have done it before, many many times. Most of them have also failed at doing those things before too. And they learned from it.

I think it was Michael Jordan who said, "Nothing prepares you for handling pressure, like handling pressure."

Seeing IS Believing
 

In order to get to scratch, there is a lot more to it than just "the geometry."

I’m sure we are just talking degrees here, but I think what enables pros to accomplish the list you cited is an on plane right forearm, a lag pressure point and a pre-selected hinge action. Getting bogged down in mechanics as the pundits but it is nothing more than dealing with the endless litany of associative feels that are not rooted in principle. Too much is made of the so-called X factor relating to human performance. I say it is nothing more than IMAGINATION! But what are we to imagine? I think the best players just “see it” better than we do. I recall Lynn talking about the “Bubba Effect”, or the second ball syndrome, where you always stripe the second ball down the gut after wiping one into a housing development! This is why address 3-F-5 is crucial to scoring success. You gotta feel like you have already done the deed! That by the way is REAL patience.

False mechanics is position golf…true mechanics is alignment golf…or the science of relationships…GEOMETRY! Have you ever stood over a 25ft putt and just knew that you were going to hole it? In my opinion that is a state induced by the correct orientation towards a straight plane line i.e. you just see it! Without geometry we cannot aim. No aim means a non-specific plane. i.e an all too common any plane will get me there mentality. It does not work with the flying variety either. That of course means a lot of golf!

So, position mechanics is verboten…alignment mechanics (and the meaningful associative feel) is recommended. To feel it is to reproduce the mechanics. I may be putting too fine a point on it…but thar ya go!

Very good points . . . that unfortunately I do resemble.

That doofus Henny is fishin' . . . I'm sure that he'll chime in upon his return no doubt smelling like catfish or carp on a plank.

So many good points
 

You guys are great. Really into the Golfing Machine. What a treat.
Gettin' Better is one of the best topics placed on the forum.

I have given more than a dozen books to friends only to get
dissapointed to find that they speed read the book and never
go back to it for referance. I hear all the answeres, have to refer
to other chapters to much or to technical. I try to encourage
the Homer Kelly principles but most golfers try only a little and only
on the course. Then they watch the Golf Channel and want to
try something entirely different from The Golfing Machine. I am
sure that you Guys have faced the experience. I must admit that
I read the book 9 times, over the years, before the Lynn Blake
Forum came into existance. I had a hard time with the reading. What a revolution! When the Forum came into exsistance, what a change. Unfourtainly many Golfers are not savy enough to use the internet forum
and therefore cannot gain the enthusiam to go forward with The
Golfing Machine.

One of my favorite passages from the book is "Demanding that Golf
instruction be kept simple does not make it simple--only incomplete
and inaffective". I guess the main reason that I like the range over
playing is that to much time is wasted playing a round. A common
question at Lynn's clinics is, Would you guys rather go on the
course and play or would you rather stay here and work on your
swing. Normally I see about half to two thirds go out to play.
Maybe they want to see if they can take what they learned to course?
For me, I would much rather spend the valuable time learing more
form Lynn, Tedd and Jeff. I print a lot of the posts and make books
out of them. I can take the books to the range and go through all
the points, hitting balls to test the threads and find out how they
relate to the overall swing. I cannot make a full study on the
course playing. I guess, that if I find the secret, I will play more?
I would much prefer to learn ball striking rather than trying to
lower my scores through course management. Another passage,
Hogan said, "never hit a shot on the course that you have not
practiced on the Range".

Like said in a movie," you guys are not great, you are better than
that". Thanks for all your input.

Like a Baby!
 

Yeah...I second that motion. The yeaahhboyz have it!

This is the primary reason why I would be keeping you company on the range soaking up some real teachin': They are truth brokers. I have said it several times before, but repetition of the truth is just amplification.

The lowest round I ever shot was a **. I remember the hangover i had the next day! Not becasue of some revelry and fermented beverages, but rather because I had no freakin idea how I did it! The next round out was much like the ones I had played just before my flash of brilliance...just OK. Outside of the luck involved in shooting low I knew that I could not articulate a description in words, or even in a feel that could be recalled. After some back slapping, I scurried off to the range to keep my fragile ballon aloft! POP!!! I am not ashamed to admit that my eyes misted up...OK... I cried like big fat baby! :sad2: This scene after shooting **! IT (the alignments and the lag pressure) started to recoil in fear of all the bubble gum tips I had filed, and was now running through! :(

Number one key to playing good golf was shared with me by a 4 time British Open winner. "You must always be free of tension, Master!" Tension is a mental thing. The "truth will set you free" even if you fail to comply you are never technically lost, just a bit out of joint. That lost feeling is what I have never really liked...not faulty compliance. Lost = tension. Found = free!

I'm on vacation...can't your tell?





I believe that having a clue on the range increases my appetite to play.

I think this is one of the most interesting threads on this forum. I have enjoyed reading.

I too am trying to "get better" and can see myself in all of these posts. Some people seem to just naturally know how to "get on top" of the game, own it, even. Seems kind of innate somehow, either you got it or you don't. I got the skills, but puting it all together is fleeting. Par one day 79 the next three months later haven't broken 80. It turns around play great for a couple of weeks then it starts all over. Always around 80, just can't get over the hump and stay there score wise.

Arry Vardon
 

I too have enjoyed this thread! We do all that we do (and we do more than most, I think) to get that frikkin ball into the frikkin hole in numbers that at least resemble our potential!

I played with an up and coming young collegiate player today. He four putted the 4th green (horse shoeing consecutive putts!) I thought he was going to throw up! I recognized the “look” The look that says that I am playing for people other than myself (and 2 other strangers at that.) His rep was on the line…he was probably thinking “these guys are probably thinking that I am such a hack etc.” Well the wheels came off on the next hole and he was fit to be tied. So I sidled up to him coach-like and communicated the following (all of it based on personal experience.)

NEVER be surprised by ANYTHING that happens on a golf course…it suggests that you do not get it
Sure way to fail at anything is to make your highest motive quest ACCEPTANCE. You gotta have a lot of I don’t give a crap about what others think in order to be good
You take what you can get, or if you prefer, what the course gives you. That never precludes your level best effort
The course is your daily opponent
If you do not grind on a ten foot putt for bogey, you have not yet learned that a stroke is a stroke is a stroke.
Never allow one round to define what caliber of player you can be. By extention 10 individual rounds STILL cannot define what caliber of player you can be.
Sink your heart and soul into PREPARATION. When you tee it up determine to do the following:

Play each hole with a plan
Pick a specific target
Observe ALL rules and etiquette
Keep you grooves and ball clean
Shake your playing partner’s hands (with hat removed)
Add ‘em up
You gotta be able to say to paraphrase Arry Vardon “That sir, was my best for the day“ …or something to that effect


If anything is worth doing it is worth doing poorly, right?

I was able to convey all of this because as is often the case it took us 5 hours to get around!

We hit the range afterward and I introduced to him to the flying wedges! Ah to be a youngster again!

You have some good points, Okie, but as for what this youngster needs to focus on during the round, cleaning his clubs may or may not need to be on the list.

When it comes to learning how to score and how to play this game, for the most part, you have to figure it out for yourself. Playing holes with a plan and picking specific targets sounds like really good advice. But if it were that simple, wouldn't everyone be able to play to their potential?

Just a thought.

Clean Clubs Club
 

Cleaning the clubs was more tongue in cheek, shouda used a smiley on that one! I mentioned that in the context of his routine. Worked with a sport psychologist some years ago...one of the non conventional recommendations was a "post-shot" routine built around the concept of "acceptance." My post-shot ritual if you will was making sure that the sword went back into the sheath spotless! Another one was pulling on the velcro to take the glove off. The idea being that you have officially moved onto to the next shot.

I am convinced (without hard numbers) that...98% of ALL golfers do not target very well. Primary reason being that they do not actually pick a specific target. Case in point, this kid was teeing em high and cutting loose on everything! By his own admission his target was 325 anywhere on the fairway! If you do not have a very specific target line what are the chances you have a workable plane line? I played a lot of golf in the brain dead hit and hope brigade...it is not the best approach.

You are right that everyone has to figure out how to score themselves. To me that means applying what those with experience suggest...and seeing what works for you. I still use Johnny Millers green lite, red lite dealy


Golf is heavy on process (as is life) Preparation, preparation! Routines are important...even if it means making sure the grooves are usable:laughing9

Next time you are out playing take a look at all the filthy clubs! Competing has a lot to do with finding every advantage. Another example: I am amazed at how many people simply tee the ball where everyone else has as opposed to using the latitude the rules allow, or they face the way the tee markers are situated, as if they were direction aides. There are a lot of tricks to the trade, as it were. When you play with a kid that flies it 300 yards and has zero fear...you despair when the brain is dormant!

There are NO simple Things
 

Attention to mind numbing detail is simple, but never easy. A key in daily living is to find the meaning in the menial tasks we perform. You spend years searching out what works...then reality sets in! It is kinda like when you were a teen lapping up the "you can do anything you set your mind to" speeches. Options demand a decision. It is kinda like people trying the latest fad diet. Do you honestly think that people do not know how to lose fat? If they keep enough options pending they have very cleverly abdicated their responsibility to choose. Although a non-choice is a choice, right? The extension to golf is that you gotta make some decisions. How often have you heard the advice to give equal time, if not more, to the short game? How many people you know that know that (even intuitively) and REFUSE to comply. Success is compliance with what IS:eyes: ?

Why is Tiger so good? In the context of my statements above he has simply made up his mind! Oversimplistic? Perhaps, but that to me is what is at the heart of focus...a sovereign will that is set like flint...unwavering...immovable.

This kid will probably not heed my advice, but that is just because of the cash he had to fork over!:laughing1

Another 80 this morning.....I blow.....36 putts...didn't hit it solid....yuk.....missed 4 birdie putts and 2 par putts inside 6 feet. Hit it great on the range before and after the round though. Made everything after the round on the putting green. Oh well, my lowball team won 9 skins. The only good thing was today I made some money.

And that you got to play golf. We got 6 more inches of snow yesterday, happy Spring!

What if you have horrible hat head or a surprisingly receded hairline?

How close are you chipping/pitching it when you miss the green?

Whatever folks think of Pelz from a technique standpoint, the stats are worth paying attention to. Simply put, if you want to score, chipping better is the fastest way to do it - get inside that 3-6 foot circle with your chips.

Kojack is where it is at!
 

Go chrome dome...then take it off...when appropriate!

I hit 10 greens and every chip I had on missed greens was within 5 feet but 1. I really felt good with the wedges and chipped it close all day. The funny thing is, the putter wasn't that bad, I burned a lot of edges and lipped out a bunch....as stated earlier in this thread......"I rolled it well, I just didn't make as many as I wanted". It was really a weird day. I did a good job course management wise.

Funny thing is...I have a lot of these types of days. Tommorrow I may hit 3 greens, have 24 putts and still shoot 80. It's day to day, but what isn't...right?

Sounds like your speed on the short putts and/or line is very aggressive?

Next round you play, take the highest line you see, and double it, even on the short putts. Let me know how it goes, I'm guessing your speed may smooth out a bit.

Miss em on the high side and 'in the leather' :)

Sage Green Edzvice!
 

What!!!!? Not run them by 17 inches?:confused1 Good advice. 1-3 rps is all ya need!

Redfish
 

Bucket,

Redfish not cafish or carp. Caught a bunch and threw them all back. We got caught 25 miles South of the dock when the weather turned and the wind gusted to 37 from the North. Nowhere to hide. That was one long ride home. Lots of training and practice allowed us to pick our way through difficult conditions, and we arrived without a scratch.

Making a plan is a good idea. Training yourself to make appropriate decisions based on the conditions at hand is a higher level.

Hopefully fish is all you caught . . . .

Crabs?????

bump bump bump

This must be another one of those weird spam posts.....notice how its his first post and he wants us to believe that Bucket has friends????????

All joking aside welcome to LBG David. If you're really a friend of Buckets we that have a lot of questions to ask you.....lots and lots of questions.

Ill answer your question then you'll have to answer ours OK?............The "Triad" and feel.

Now, hmmmmm, Daryl whats our first question for David, pal o'Bucket............hmmmmmm.......where to start man , where to start?

It must be spam. Bucket doesn't have friends and he only gets one phone call a week from jail. So unless his real name is Bubba, I think it's spam.