lunge equals sway!!! i would reject that statement.

Understanding the Pivot -- Its Motion and Component Participation
 

Thanks for your post, Andy. Good questions all and ones I will be happy to discuss in detail later. Meanwhile, I am stealing time from Mrs. Yoda waiting with my cold coffee on the terrace at Baltusrol as I post this quick answer from the locker room.

1. The Shoulder turns about its Pivot Center, the Stationary Head (or, alternatively, the 'point between the shoulders'). The Pivot Center remains fixed, regardless of other Component Motion or Action, e.g., the Weight Shift via the Hip Slide (in either direction or both).

2. With Head held Stationary, any Weight Shift (Hip Shift) does indeed cause the lower spine to swing away from its fixed top. Again, this 'tilt' occurs in both directions. The movement of the lower spine toward the target in the Downstroke is well known. The movement away from it in the Backstroke has been virtually ignored.

3. Both items #1 and #2 above are possible because of our 'Hula Hula flexibility' -- the ability to move the Shoulders independently of the Hips (and vice versa) -- as described in 7-12 (the Pivot).

4. The Bent Knee (either the Right on the Backstroke or the Left on the Downstroke) does indeed flatten the Hip Turn. Any straightening of either Knee tilts the Hips in the direction on the straightened knee. This straightening is the 'Standard Action,' so described by Homer Kelley because "this is the way it has been done [by most golfers] for centuries." The Maximum Participation Stroke Pattern in the 3rd edition utilized this Standard variation (10-16-A) because it has the most movement of the Knee Action Variations, i.e., the "Maximum Participation."

5. In his personal work with students, Homer Kelley himself differentiated between the Sample Stroke Patterns of the 3rd edition -- customized Patterns -- and the Basic Stroke Patterns of the later editions (12-1-0 and 12-2-0).

This is a great topic. Let's keep it going. Meanwhile, Andy, I'm off for Westchester and the Barclays Classic this afternoon. Hope to see you on the tee!

:salut:

I've been long (and invain) waiting for a follow-up to this very interesting thread
Who (and why) trew the sponge? Lynn or Andy? Are they still in good relationships?
Ciao

Two For the Road
 

No thrown sponges, Libero. Just men at work.

Andy (Plummer) and Mike (Bennett) are riding a wave. I see them -- and talk with them -- most every week when I'm out on TOUR. Most recently, just two weeks ago at The Barclays.

They are dedicated to their students, and with camera in hand, they do their best to help every week.

More power -- no pun intended :) -- to them!

:salut:

Plummer, Bennett and Blake, three tour level instructors who help everyone appreciate the golfing machine and play better. No golf channel commentary, no swingvision analysis that sounds the same every time, no comments on student's personal problems to explain a student's lack of progress. A good eye, imagination and the yellow book= results.

Hi Lynn,old man,(even if I'm nearly as old as you),thanks for ur reply.
I understand the going. Good to know stack&tilters still belong to our
family.
Ciao

Libero

Three Imperatives
 

Thanks, Dodger. It really is happening . . . .

On the practice tees of America . . .

On the PGA TOUR . . .

And even on The Golf Channel on Saturday of The Barclays :) . . .

The Stressed Clubshaft (Clubhead Control and Power) . . . .

The Flat Left Wrist (Clubface Control and Rhythm) . . .

The Straight Plane Line (Clubshaft Control and the Inclined Plane of Motion).

Think on these things.

Make at least modest strides toward them.

And realize the golf of your dreams.

:salut:

Yoda baby!
 

I have read and re-read this post many times over the past few months and had to finally sign-up to post a question to you.

With ONLY the interest of knowledge (not to cause controversy amongst peers) as the basis of this question in mind.....

Which point (or 2 points) of Mike and Andy's pattern do you MOST disagree with?

Thanks for the insight and for creating a site with such an incredible wealth of knowledge.

Roads Diverging In the Wood
 

Clearwater,

I am glad you enjoyed these past few months as a 'lurking' guest. Welcome aboard as a bonafide member, and thank you for your first post!

:salut:

To your question:

I advocate a Right Shoulder that moves back to the Inclined Plane (Turned Shoulder Plane / 10-13-B), not a Left Shoulder that moves down (toward wherever).

I advocate Hands that move from an Elbow Plane (10-6-A) to the Turned Shoulder Plane (Single Shift / 10-7-B), not Hands that move from a Hands Plane (10-6-E) to an Elbow Plane ("X" Classification).

Andy Plummer (Plumdog on this site) and Mike Bennett are friends that I meet on the practice tees of the PGA TOUR. I admire their work, but on these two points . . .

We definitely see things differently.

:)

The beauty is that both procedures work.

A Q.

Isn´t Elbow plane 10-6-A and not an X?

Yoda,

What would be the benefit to start from an elbow plane instead of a turned shoulder plane?

Thanks

Differentiating Components
 

The second 'departure' in my post referenced Plane Angle -- Variations (Component #7) not Plane Angle -- Basic (Component #6). The Shift from Elbow Plane (10-6-A) to Turned Shoulder Plane (10-6-B) is defined as Single Shift (10-7-B). The Shift from Hands Plane (10-6-E) to Elbow Plane is undefined as a Component #7 Variation. Hence, the "X" Classification per 1-K and 10-0.

Basic Plane Angle And the Address Position
 

Starting from a normal Elbow Plane (10-6-A), even if steeper-than-normal per 7-23 (Editions 1-6 only), is more 'golf-like' than starting on a Turned Shoulder Plane. A visit to a Plane Board set on the Turned Shoulder Plane will confirm the extreme position required to address the Ball on such a steep Plane Angle.

Also, note that I was referring to the longer Strokes. Short Shots -- Putts and Chips -- typically are executed on much steeper Planes (and often with Zero #3 Accumulator Angle). Hence, they lend themselves to the more extreme Address Position required by the Turned Shoulder Plane.

:)

Of course!

When rereading your post I see it.

:salut:

From working with both Mac and Andy on both patterns and how they differ, They work off only the terms of classifications. THEY ARE VERY APART AND LIKE WHAT IT DOES FOR PLAYERS.

The TGM language IS easy to grasp with the basic concepts.
Or as a former chief said , what is is.

By the way Lynn keep up the good work sorry to not post much.

get back to the dark side where you belong

LOL
But you know my #1 got cut off by a red lightsaber...