When the head swivels doesn't it throw off our ability to see the actual location of the center of the head? In other words, Scott's head is truly centered in the picture provided earlier in this thread, but it appears to be slightly off since he has swiveled his head? (posed to anyone)

Matt

Ok man sure. Big deal.

It doesn't change anything tho cause Homer's machine doesn't resemble a human being. It swings a golf club yes. But it does not work the same way as a human. (I think that was the original point)

Coolcool. It happens.

Birdie, I just despair at you.

Let me make it real simple...



This is the spine - you know, that thing that runs up the middle of the back.... not some mystical line that runs through the 'look of the back' from a front on view....

Spine
 

These are good pictures.

From some of the information given by Mr. Skywalker... it has been shown that in order to KEEP a steady HEAD in a golf stroke, the SPINE DOES INDEED MOVE IN WAYS THAT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO DETECT. Some of the difficulty here could be in the Straight Rod Spine CONCEPT, Neutral Spine, or other ideas that are out there.

The TORSO, and HEAD stays fairly steady, but the SPINE underneath that TORSO is doing various things under there in order for this STEADINESS to occur. If fact, if one attempts to keep the SPINE STRAIGHT LIKE A ROD, the HEAD will then most likely be forced to MOVE, probably both LATERALLY and DOWN at certain points during the STROKE.

Homer's 'Hula Hula' Hip Turn
 

Hula dancers have the same 'problem.' \\:D/

Which is why Homer used Hula Hula as the subtitle for Chapter 7-14 (the Hip Turn Component).

And all that I wanted was "how you would interpret the additional text"!

Here is a question for Birdie and all others btw.

Can we all agree on that by having a stationary head, it is easier to return the clubhead to the ball more accurately than without a stationary head?

If so, why should not everybody do it?

Oh because all are not as flexible as Tiger or Els or....and so on.....

BUT, IMO the solution to have a stationary head and still be able to make a total motion indipendent of your bodysize and flexibility is in the book!!

Happy reading:read:

K what is it.

Despair at me eh.

Yes I know what a spine is man.

I think a lower intelligence monkey could prolly tell that the pink line is not Sam Snead's spine....

....and a higher intelligence monkey could prolly tell that the blue line is not Sam Snead's spine.

I guess it could be called a "look of lean"...? (yes I know this is not a Golfing Machine term)

I dunno who would ever try to pass those lines off as the spine (has anyone?) but I wouldn't.

I don't think the green line is right either tho.

(any spine experts out there??)

...

Anyway...

Regardless of all this spine anatomy stuff....(which is interesting in itself)...

Those pictures are both 2 examples of pretty nice pivots- IMO. Jack and Sam. (although I'm not overly big on Jack's right knee)

They worked very well for these players....are pretty orthodox (i.e. "classic") pivots IMO.....

And for a driver....very good- IMO.

And I thought it was obvious.
 

Birdie_man,

All the combinations of the basic components.

What is it? A total of 446,512,500,000,000,000 differents swings which have the 3 imperatives:salut:

For example: to a inflexibel player I would start with the pivot 10-12-B.

Now, what would this do to him?

I'm not such an expert, but I think Mathew did as well as can be done in 2 dimensions.

Define interpret,,,:rolleyes: just kiddin. It turned into quite a thread eh?

Crux of the matter. Taken to the extreme, it would be nearly impossible to return the club to the ball accurately with head movement of lets say 6" and certainly easier with a stationary head. But most players exhibit some movement. So where can we draw the line?

IMO, staionary is the promised land and with incremental degrees of movement, consistent clubhead to ball delivery gets tougher (not impossible, just tougher).

Disagree.

I'm done tho. (at least for now...could change tomorrow who knows)

Help on the way
 

I spoke with Lynn today about shooting a video to help clear the fog.
Like everything else, to do it right takes practice.

If you ever get paired with Mike O . . . better Sway Bob and move your head all over the place. Last guy that beat him ended up hotdawg chili.

Bucket
 

You really are unbelieveable! It's late here - but I'll holla back when I've got some energy!

Watch the video of Mr Kelley on this site. I figure 40 yrs of study and practice he could replicate what he taught.

His chin swivels to the right- does his head move? It appears to slighlty.

I focus on his pivot. The pivot controls the sway or lack there of. Isn't the point for a stationary head to eliminate the sway and bob???

Link To Homer's Swing
 

Here's the link. It is the only known video of Homer Kelley's swing.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery.../3-HKSwing.wmv

Homer Kelley Swing
 

Just for information and/or clarification - this Homer Kelley swing was in the process of showing that you needed to HIT DOWN on the ball. I wouldn't consider it full power. I wouldn't say that it was a "normal" swing for him in this regard- there was very little concentration and no target awareness- he is emphasizing the downward blow- and thrust down plane- essentially demonstrating that to a student. So my comments are really just a minor addition - broadening the context of the clip a little- for anyone that is interested.

K I can't do it.....tear myself away that is....I never can....(I guess I sound like an alky or a CRACKhead here)....

To do a Stationary Head correctly? No doubt it does. Personally, I still am not sold that it's superior.

Keep bobbing and weavin so it don't get cut off?

What do you mean appear to have moved? Are you saying there is some kind of illusion? I would think getting video would be best.

So you're saying those things are merely ideals then?

I can see em as conceptual ideals a lot of the time...not real ideals. Concepts. That's how I see it mostly. Personally.

I agree that reality must be dealt with...

I assume you mean "When trying for a Stationary Head and Zero shift the head moves and the plane shifts."

No?

That can also be true.

I don't think of them as ideals for (all?) humans tho so when my head moves and my plane shifts it's not an error in execution. (but that's just me)

You know he must be trying for a Stationary head anyway.

And it's fairly Stationary....and you would expect it to be because he favored it.

We know that already tho so the fact that HK is doing it really is not surprising in the least....

The issue is whether this really IS the ideal all or even most of the time....not whether HK prefers it.

(although I don't think HK ever said anything but The 3 Imperatives MUST be done by every golfer)

He does bob quite a bit in this clip tho. I realize he is likely demonstrating something to someone (he's obviously emphasizing something there....prolly relating to Impact)...there is a bob tho. But w/e.

YES I agree that would be the point.

When you are BUILDING A MACHINE to swing a club it's true.....there is absolutely no reason for it's "head" (whether that be a post or w/e) to move. (sway and/or bob)

But that's when you're building a machine. You can build it however you want.

As I've already said....I think.....that the "human machine" (if this is what we want to call it) is different.

Ah yes spot on Mr. O.

And it should be said too cause ppl will say: "That's HK's swing??? What a pile of crap!"

When really...anyone who KNOWS knows his hands are Educated and he's demonstrating something.

follow-up
 

1) Bucket were you paying attention - my friend from Canader- referred to me as Mr. O- take note you 1/2 of a machine- bucket of nuts and bolts!:eyes: :happy3: :hang: (Hey, haven't used the old hanging head thingy for a while!- back off.)

2) Regarding Homer Kelley's swing- His swing and golf game would be nothing to aspire to (that's the Politically Correct answer!) He's not your jock athlete. He didn't practice to be a good player. His best handicap ever would have been a 8. I play more in one year than the guy played in five or many more.

He was a researcher. Did he understand the concepts that he discovered in order not to hit fat/thin throwaway shots- absolutely.

Instead of rambling on- the point to make is this: It doesn't matter how good or bad Homer Kelley was at the game of golf- it is a separate issue from the validity of the information in the Golfing Machine. Said differently- imagine that you never have played golf and you read and read and over a number of years understood the entire Golfing Machine book and all of it's principles and all of it's detail, etc.- finally you decide to buy some clubs, step out onto the first tee and hit your first shot- well you can finish the rest of the story.

The Truth About Homer's Swing
 

:(

No...

:crybaby:

Anyone who looks at this video of Homer Kelley's Swinging Golf Stroke -- deliberately abbreviated in accordance with his own words -- with its wonderful...

-- Standard Pivot and Lagging Clubhead Takeaway;

-- Snap Loading at the Top;

-- Delayed Release; and

-- Impeccable Impact and Follow-Through alignments...

And then utters the damning words in your quote...

Obviously has no concept of a geometrically-correct Golf Stroke.

So, how much is optimum?

Wait, I know!

Whatever works...

Yeah, bandaids... that's the ticket.

To Sonic_Doom:

Yes you are EXACTLY right. :)

It's not a hard concept:

I'll take my ball consistently further and straighter....however I can. THEN I'll attach the 'why' too.

To Mr. efnef:

Bandaid for what exactly?

Lynn you are spot-on...just like Mike O.

...

I have heard people "diss" this clip of Homer....obviously they know nothing.

Watching the Snead/Toski video on this sight Snead employs a stationary head. Can't argue with his success - 82 tour victories.

An Apology to Sonic Doom
 

Mr. Birdie Man, I withdraw my comment. I was out of line. And I apologize to you, Sonic Doom.

Efnef - That's funny, I was being a bit of a sarcastic SOB (to Birdie) to begin with!

Need more pictures to come to conclusions as to what a player did.

I really don't feel like lookin for em but as of now, for Snead, we have:

-rear view clip with head between feet (not sure what club in hand or what type of shot)

-face-on with driver...head moves away from target in Backstroke....at Top is back of between the feet

-Snead/Toski video (wedge shots?)....head pretty darn centered and Stationary from what I just watched.

...

Need to analyze lots of different years, clubs, shots to get full picture I think.

BTW efnef and Sonic_Doom eat boogers.

...

:) jk

I wasn't sure. At first I assumed you were sarcastically mouthing an "Italian Scallionism," since the Bird Man has been bowing low at Spaghetti Boy's alter lately and I was chiming in my $.02. When Birdie responded to me, I went back and reread your post and thought, "well, gee, maybe this dude was being sincere."

Well, I thought better of it all and apologized for the sake of civility (and, BTW, Homer said it, too).

I will leave you with the following, though...
IMHO, "whatever works," no matter who says it smacks a bit of being a quick fix, or a bandaid to me, no matter who says it. When I started playing this game again in 2002, after about a 35 year lay off (played as a child/teen), I did everything wrong,naturally, and was a total hack. I wound up starting over from scratch with the help of a very competent LPGA instructor in Athens, GA, by the name of Jean Harris. I doubt that she knows anything about The Golfing Machine, but she didn't even want to see my old swing. We started with chipping, then pitching, then half swing, then full swing over a period of several months. She wouldn't let me go to the next stage until I had it down with no casting, proper grip, set up, alignment to the target, etc. I worked with her for about a year and a half. My final lesson was a playing lesson with her as my course manager. Before taking lessons from her, my best score was a 108. I played those 6 holes with her at 2 under par. Throughout my whole experience with her, she was patient, and we both stayed the course, sticking to fundamentals. No "whatever works" or quick fix bandaids. I can remember that she had a cupped wrist in her own backswing, but when I asked her if it needed to be flat at the top, she said she didn't give a damn as long as the hands led the club into ball, otherwise you'd be scooping the ball. As for the pivot, she thought the left side's job was to get out of the way, so the right side could power the swing.

Anyway, you get the picture. She stressed fundamentals and building the swing from the ground up. She didn't want to see me more than twice a month, and wanted me to get whatever aspect I was working on down pat before we went on to the next step. No quick fixes, tips, or gimmicks, just because I wasn't doing well on a given day. The only devices/training aids she used with me were golf shafts to correct my alignment to the target and to teach me how to hit a draw (I was a horrible slicer; now a slight draw is my normal ball flight), a swing plane (one of those big pvc rings you stand in and swing along the ring), and the old golf tee in front of the ball to learn how to hit the little ball first and the big ball second (she had some gizmos for putting practice, but that is another story. She saw me sink about 15 putts in a row, and pretty much left me alone on my putting style).

Well, I ramble... but anyway, what's optimum? A solid foundation, not "whatever works." It probably won't work tomorrow.

Anyway, I leave you now. I was gonna tell a booger joke, but Birdie beat me to it.

The Italian guy helped me a lot with no band aids. I've got a flw, a straight plane line and LAG.

I did much like you efnef, I started with Ben Doyle's tire lesson from this site and did not move on until I could execute a chip, pitch and punch without flipping the tire over and without looking down the shaft. I was a decent player before I started with the TGM ideas, now I am a lot better. I'm sorry but I just don't see any bandaids in that. I don't see how anyone that thinks the 3 imperatives are the ticket could be a band-aider. It simply takes a lot of time and dedication to get those right.

Efnef: That's just one major difference between this site and Rocky's, civility. Goes a long way my friend. BTW Rocky is the fly in my signature :laughing9

Birdie: tastes better than scallions!

Birdie: Thats been done already my friend, like the thread title asks:

Stationary Head - To Be Or Not To Be?

I like HKs analysis personally, who's do you like? Maybe you're gonna do said analysis?

Debatable . . . Boogies definitely are a fav of low-carb types.

Ummm... once again, the shortcomings of attempting to participate in internet written communication... I guess I was not clear. My initial response was to the remark, "Whatever works." I did not say that the three imperatives were a band aid. I agree with you 100%. It takes time and dedication. Build the swing on a solid foundation. Quick fixes are here today, gone tomorrow.

I think I need a vacation from internet forums.

You were very clear. I am glad your golf game improved.

It seems to me, that this is the only thing that ever seems to get debated.

I notice in another place in cyberspace that there is pictures of Lynn with a tripod (from a 10-5-E variation for hitting and a handheld hence non-level camera that is not square on the plane line, playing in the middle of winter in a windy day and I think he said he had 5 layers of clothes on - I might add). Through my work in 3d - just a few degrees out and you can find that you can totally change the impression of things. I mean its laughable, this is the guy that said he needs some solid scientific proof and he then takes from a ghosty and double compressed video and makes some suspicious pictures. Do you recon these where good conditions from which to judge???

Lack of their knowledge never allows them to debate anything else...

Unfortunately for the naysayers, this does not detract from the principle. And for every person that you can find that sways, I can find one with a perfectly centered pivot. There is the ideal and like in every game you play, every deviation of it - you lose....

It is possible and it is correct...

:)

The Crux is...
 

The crux of the matter is this (and I don't think I can say it strongly enough)...

The Head is related to the Left Shoulder (by the simple fact that it rides on the plane of the shoulder girdle) which is the Low Point of the Swing.

If your Head moves to the Right or to the Left of the Center of the Stance, the Low Point moves thus, you have to either...

1) Move it back to Center at impact or,

2) Shift your aiming point forward (if your head shifts right of center and stays there through impact) or backward (if your head shifts left of center and stays there through impact) to allow your club to get into an in-line position and not hit the ground first or the top of the ball or,

3) Have a ball position that already FACTORS in the amount of 'sway'.

With all due respect, if you have to ask me, "What are you talking about; can you elaborate on these compensations?", then use a Stationary Head Center.

Again, if your answer to the question "Can you make these 'compensations' at the same time, all the time?" is less than an affirmative 'YES!', use the Stationary Head Center.

:)