Tom,

Where exactly the end of the Follow Through is isn't that important to this discussion.

So what do you think of the over-swivel Ben has after his Hinge Action?
Or do you not think that's not an over-swivel at all?
Do you think because the ball is long gone after Impact, it doesn't matter whether the clubface turns back on to the plane or not?
Are you saying the standard TGM recommendation that the Left Wrist should Swivel back to its parallel to the Plane alignment after the Follow Through shouldn't be taught to everyone?

I'm saying, where Ben was said to be at the end of follow through is past HIS follow through. Hinge action really only occurs or matters while the ball is on the clubface. After that it's gone. Do whatever you want, the ball went dead straight.

I see, so you're saying you should just make sure you have a good Hinge Action so the ball goes straight, and whatever happens after that doesn't matter, so all this talk in TGM about having the Left Wrist parallel to the Plane for the Finish Swivel is irrelevant.
This is contrary to what Yoda was saying, because his line of thought is that even though the ball is long gone at Follow Through, your Computer knows you haven't got a proper Finish Swivel, and this will adversely affect what happens during Impact and hence your ball flight.

Didn't say you shouldn't strive for perfection. Just that I have seen some of the best ever do it different ways. So, the computer is a lot better computer than we give it credit for. The swivel is more important for some people than others.

My take
 

So the ball encounters the clubface. And stays on it for a defining moment. During that moment the ball will experience a delivery of kinetical energy. The amount delivered will be proportional to the difference in clubhead speed before and after separation.

The ball does not volontarily move. The ball "tries to stop the clubhead". If the ball succeeds there will be no golf. So we'd better deliver a very clear message.

So how can we make sure the ball gets the idea?

By telling the hands: Thou shalt not care about the ball. All you should care about is ending up swiveling on-plane at chest height. And by telling the eyes: If you are talking to someone you should look straight him straight in the eye.

All-in-all I believe what Yoda is saying that by telling the machine where and how we want the swivel - we can indirectly be more deliberate and heavy through the ball.

I don't know about that. You can make a perfect swivel and still miss the shot. So, the swivel doesn't hit the ball.

Right on Cowboy...
 

I stand behind what Tongzilla is saying. This is about G.O.L.F, about science and not about what one man says or is able to do.

You right on man. Those tour players don't know diddly

By the way, who was this team that wrote tgm? just being funny people don't get your panties in a bunch.

Finish swivel...not a "secret", not a principle, not an imperative, not an essential.

It’s about G.O.L.F. mechanics, not about people. I'm trying to learn and I don't care who’s’ picture is being used in the demonstration or what kind of golfer they are. I care only about the demonstration and I’m appreciative to all those who contribute to and maintain this website.

Since my return from Old Waverly I've been practicing Hinging and Finish Swivel by the only way I was taught and how it was demonstrated to me by all of the instructors at the seminar. I told VJ at Old Waverly that I would never be able to get it because I was just not physically capable of getting my hands and arms that far through the ball without swiveling prematurely. I play the ball opposite my left shoulder with every club. But I stuck with it for two weeks with my flashlight, dowels and the impact bag. I gave up ten times. My first visit to the short game area of the local practice facility was this morning and I planned on only using an acquired motion stroke and work only on hinging. After stretching, I aligned myself and all the clubs laid out facing the sun and visualized how far ahead my arms and hands had to be to complete the hinge motion prior to full extension. I dropped 20 balls 40 yards out and started. It was miserable. Then another 20 balls and another. A little better. I decided to keep trying. The line of sight to my hands at the end of the hinge position was about 18 inches beyond my left foot but I was swinging a little differently and it felt like one of the Edz drills I’ve been practicing for months and months and my hands were getting there and I started to hit the ball. The drill where you let your left arm fall down to the ball, the karate chop and the wheel rim. I picked up the balls and went to 80 yards. Hit every one. #3 pressure point, trace the plane line, inside aft quadrant of the ball, etc. Then I went to 150 yards and I hit every one and had 60 balls on the green. It works. The swivel after the hinge action was on automatic as was a full finish and my left wrist did not bend during the swivel. It became clear to me that the Flying Wedges are aligned from start-up throughout till the end of the hinge action and yet most of the time it felt like they were aligned throughout the whole stroke. If they lose their alignment or feel at all during the swing it isn’t until the finish swivel but then you get them back again at the finish. I went to the range and hit 10 drives seeing how far I can get my hands ahead at impact (ok, there is a limit). Every club has the same swing feeling. Wheel rim all the way through and past the ball, don’t lose the wedges, hit down hard, heavy through the ball, right forearm and shoulder on plane deep into impact (so that’s what a Pivot Stroke is), hips clear. Don’t try to hit the ball. Hit through the ball. The acceleration is so smooth. The shaft bends and vibrates. I’ve never hinged before. I have been swinging like a baseball player for thirty years and swiveling through impact. The Edz drill changed my swing and now I can hinge. I discovered how far the hands travel during the hinging motion from impact to finish swivel. And it is far. Sometimes my focus was at the end of the Hinge motion, sometimes the starting position and motion of the swivel. But more importantly, by the end of the practice session, that’s where my thoughts were focused and not impact.

That's GREAT Daryl! Sounds like you are well on your way. Keep up the good work.

If you read my post though you would know that it has nothing to do with who is in the picture. That is people trying to read that into my posts. My comment was the 1st photo in the series was called end of follow through and I say it ain't. If you watch the video you can see he reaches the end one frame earlier. And secondly, I questioned Lynn about the end of follow through being when the club is 45 degrees to the ground. He said 2-G (I, and many other authorized TGMers, say that is a drill for the student to see the different hinges). I say HOMER says 8-11.

And again I come in peace. If apologize if this is perceived as some sort of attack, nothing could be further from the truth.

Just trying to clear the fog and help people play better golf.

Lynn...I do believe at the Pine Needles Workshop you showed us at the Finish Swivel that the left wrist is slightly bent and the right wrist flattens slightly as the hands rotate/swivel to the parallel to the plane for the Finish...Has your position changed? Or is it due to a different grip type?.....Or did Ben influence your change of opinion?...I could be wrong..but you know I tend to listen very carefully..

I would asssume the Finish Swivel varies coming out of the different Hinge Actions and Plane Angle Variations!!!!!


The flatter the plane angle variation the more roll...the more upright the less!!!

Thanks for demonstrating and showing Ben's "Perverted Finish Swivel" as compared to the Yoda Finish Swivel....

Yours is more by the book!!!

:hello2: :hello2: :hello2:

Perhaps....

But I think the real argument here is "what (often/ALSO) works" vs. "by the book".

...

That seems to be a common theme with a lot of these debates....

...

My thinking is that if something works then what can you say really.....honestly, who cares.

....and maybe it doesn't work for everyone....but if it works better for SOMEBODY, then what can you say really?

...

One thing that I always think of is Homer saying: "You don't HAVE TO do anything!" in his audio tape with Lynn.

Is this one of those things?

:dontknow: :dontknow:

just asking a question based on what was shown at the Needles!!!

Ahahah.....those damn smilies!!

:toothy::liar: :pray: :salut: :sad2: :confused1 :hang:

...

:monky:

Aahah monkey.

The Flat Right Wrist And the Cocked Left Wrist During the Finish Swivel
 

The Right Wrist does indeed Flatten during the Finish Swivel as the Right Palm rotates palm-down to the Plane. And most players -- even TOUR players -- tend to Flatten it even sooner (during, not after, the Hinge Action). Accordingly, the Left Wrist for most players -- even TOUR players -- tends to Bend. To the extent these folk play well -- and many do -- it is because they have become expert 'throwers' of the Golf Club.

But ideally, the Left Wrist remains Flat as it only Swivels and then Re-Cocks. When viewed from Down-the-Line, this Re-Cocking of the Flat Left Wrist in its vertical Plane of Motion -- the Left Arm Flying Wedge -- appears somewhat 'cupped' or Bent. [See my recent post on the appearance of the Cocked Left Wrist at the Top.]

But it is not.

It is only Cocked -- as when using a hammer -- in its own vertical plane of motion.

Read the Book...And Think
 

Homer Kelley felt his book could be used as a reference for all questions regarding Golf Stroke Mechanics. The answers, he said, were there, either stated explicitly or implied.

In the book, he advised Golfers to "Take all Strokes to the Both Arms Straight Position." (6-H-0-C).

The "...end of a short Chip Shot" (2-G) is then, by definition, to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight per your own reference, 8-11).

:think:

Again, you argue Position Golf and semantics.

I argue Alignment Golf with its Hinge Action Rhythm and On Plane Finish Swivel (2-G and 7-10).

Scroll down and look at the Clubface for goodness sake.

El Capitain!!!...Gracious.....:notworthy

The Eye Of the Beholder
 

Thank you, Tom, for your contribution.

I really don't get all this reliance on "science" and Newton's laws, especially when Einstein came along quite a few years ago and blew some of that stuff out of the water. And then the quantum guys came along and scared the bejesus out of him. Homer and G.O.L.F were not, are not, will not be the last word. It will be challenged, and it will be found faulty and something better will emerge. It's how science works. This basic geometric model also fails to incorporate the fourth dimension into calculations.

Its a machine, come on...lol. Homer Kelley was an engineer and the whole book is about engineering and how the body reproduces it. No string theory and atoms needed to understand it. Man was building complex machines before even the days of newton. When your impact interval is executed as a swivel you can't really have control of the clubface or at least as much as you could have - its sheer common sense - its a major simplification.

Vandal, spoken like a true skeptic. I called Brian Greene, one of our leading "String" theorists, and asked him about my #4 pressure point, and he said to read "The Golfing Machine" by Homer Kelly. (go fiqure).:think:

Mathew, you have so much wisdom for someone so young.

Mathew, maybe you should watch Ben hit balls in person...then maybe you can comment upon his clubface control.......

There have been great players throughout history doing things that aren't correct and just because they were great doesn't mean its right. Just because one does well using inferior alignments doesn't mean it is the simpliest way. That is why I love the golfing machine. I know he hits the ball well but it doesn't change that fact.

We're talking about the advancement of a sport, to keep on inspiring, to improve and to make the next generation play better. Do you not see what Homers vision was about and why he spent 40+ years working out the simpliest way to do things. I couldn't care less what Ben does, Tiger Woods does or any tour player for that matter - its about the simplicity of a machine and it is that which is going to advance the next generation of golfers.

Skeptics never let dogma dictate knowledge and learning, and skeptics always question those who claim that they have THE truth. Skeptics challenge, prod, poke, inquire and strive. So, yes, I am a skeptic. Always.

I used to be a skeptic when I was younger. Now I just want to have fun. I gave up challenging, prodding and poking, for distance, accuracy and trajectory. But hey, I'm glad that someone is following in my old footsteps. Long live the 60's. :dance:

Just to be accurate. Homer Kelley was not an engineer, he was an engineering aid.

Yes it does! Just because a swing doesn't look like Ben Hogans doesn't mean it's wrong (I know you didn't say Ben Hogan) but that is what is implied.

That's the whole point and beauty of Homer Kelley's golfing machine, there are a zillion (I know it's not a zillion) different ways to 'Do It'. And, the most ideal way might not be possible for some (for whatever reason be it physical or mental) so they find another.

Read it, how can you not see it! There is a mechanical model underlying the whole entire book! You have to conform to the principles and alignments of the machine to have a precision stroke, conforming to the exact same principles you use in daily life and mechanical alignments you must adhere to if you want to be that efficient ballstriking machine. The book is written so that a player can have options in the various ways you can adjust it without compensations. A compensation is something that causes a disadvantage without any advantages in return or that any advantage is so overly outweighed it ceases to be one. If the impact interval is preformed as a swivel, it is a compensation. On a shot by shot basis 'the results' may even seem to be very similiar when expertly executed but every once in a while it will catch up with you and the price will be paid. Remember it is our role to give the Tiger Woods of tommorow the means and information so that he has an edge to enable him to break the records of Tiger Woods today inorder to keep inspiring the whole next generation of players that will play this game and not just merely copy the masters of old. Your stuck in the past learning the faults of your elders, and (until the next generation produces something even better) the golfing machine is advancing the future! Homer Kelley worked it out, he saw it, he understood it and the book is a proof to those that understand it!

He that have ears....
 

Amen to that Mathew...he that have ears to hear, let him hear.

But then again....

Homer is not god....

And this isn't the USSR....you don't HAVE TO conform to anything....

...

And Ben's swing, for him, produces straight shots. I just don't see how anyone could say that that is FLAT-OUT WRONG! (BLASHPEMY!!! HOMER'S ROLLING IN HIS GRAVE!!! YARRRGH!)

...

I'm sure he's aware of, and has tried thouroughly, all methods of clubface control.....

...

For the record, I don't support one way solely.....

I support what works best for a person. Brian, for one, says he teaches all ways...

...

Also, for the record, I find Ben's Swivel a little strange, for me.....but I like Angled Hinges anyway....and any Horizontal Hinge is really not my specialty (starting to work on it more).

Then again, I haven't seen these guys teach slicers how not to slice (that seems to be a big part of this whole debate, and the usefulness of this move...i.e. as a tool to educate the hands).

....so I'm not gonna assume that they don't know what they're talking about.

Thank you, Mathew, for your contribution.

I heard from Brian Manzella that Ben's normal shot is a noticeable fade. That's pretty counter-intuitive given that over-roll isn't it? Obviously something going on at Impact that's different.

Part of the instructor's job to see whether their student will do better (short and long term) with or without a compensation.

I thought he meant Ben Doyle:think:

By the way,is there anyone out there who can give an example of where Mr Kelly went wrong? or ..give one instance (other than clarification)what he got wrong?( in terms of facts)AND PROVE IT!. (I am ve..ry skeptical by nature btw).:question:

Play the Ball As It Lies
 

No, Birdie, Homer Kelley was not God.

But he was the author of The Golfing Machine.

And my post dealt only with the Clubface Alignments detailed therein.

Further, no one -- certainly not me -- said Ben's swing was "FLAT OUT WRONG." In fact, I said in the introduction to my post that the (obviously extreme) Alignments "may have been intended and for a purpose."

And "teaching slicers how not to slice" was never an issue in "the debate." The issue was the Hinge Action and Swivel Alignments as defined in The Golfing Machine. And even if there was such an issue, are we to believe that Ben is a Slicer in need of help? Please.

In fact, there has been no debate -- on the issue -- at all. I stated emphatically that the alignments demonstrated in this particular Stroke were NOT those dictated in Paragraph 2-G of The Golfing Machine. The Clubface was not maintained Vertical to an Associated Plane (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical) for any meaningful time through Impact, and it was Swiveled well past the On Plane Alignment early into the Finish.

I supported my post with factual references to the text.

There has been no argument as to these alignments.

Yoda ,like the book, one has to read your EVERY WORD in order to understand.Thanks for the lack of 'padding':study:

I think he picked Ben Hogan's name out of the sky or something, either that he didn't read my post that carefully... I said I don't care "what any tour player does for that matter".... his name was never said nor implied explicitly or implicitly. What I was talking about was the alignments of the golfing machine.

On a mechanical basis, the question is do you want that left forearm (swivel joint in 2-K) to roll through impact which will make the clubface control (in Homers words) 'extremely fleeting' to where the rapidly closing clubface is in its impact fix condition for the smallest duration.... or do you want to hold the impact fix alignment of the clubface for a sizeable period by holding the left wrist vertical whilst the motion of the left arm preforms a hinge action to precisely control the closing of the clubface just like a closing door. I know which one I strongly think is better. And he is yet to debate this fact except on the grounds that 'Ben plays well' and I'm sorry to tell this to them but that isn't really good enough a reason. Old Tom Morris played well for his time too, should we have stuck to his mechanics? I study the golfing machine because I want to understand and learn and nothing gets in the way of that and if they have a legitimate debate to give in responce thats based upon something solid I would be all ears and so far they are yet to come up with one...and as far as im concerned the mechanical simplicity and superiority of preforming a hinge action over a swivel is 100% undeniable and extremely obvious if you can visualise the machine concept.

I don't recall the section off the top of my head, but I'm surprised this conversation hasn't gotten back around to the straightening right arm and its effect(s) on clubHEAD and RPM/rate of closing.

A properly straightening right arm (motion/direction) and elbow location, prevents any 'early roll' before both the both arms straight position and helps ensure hinge action stays perpendicular to its associated plane.