For me, I intend to keep pulling for swinging or pushing for hitting.

The "pull" in Hitting is the taking up the slack and then the push begins from the stable shoulder as the right arm drives the clubhead into the ball.

Trigolt,
I think you are confusing clubhead lag and accumulator lag, a big angle between clubhead and hands is accumulator lag, not necessarily clubhead lag, clubhead lag is simply a condition of trailing, Tom Watson has great clubhead lag with not very much accumulator lag. ( full sweep release).
I am pretty sure you know this but I do not want those that do not know to get confused between the lag's. (Pivot lag, accumulator lag, & clubhead lag)

Todd

Could you explain this a little more? I'm not sure I DO know it! :D

There is a difference between clubhead lag, and true lag 'pressure'.

Brian's shopping cart image is the best way to describe the difference. (see article on his site).


In a nutshell, if you ran downhill pushing a shopping cart, lag 'pressure' is maintained by continuing to run faster than the cart - you are still providing a push - providing support.

Now, you could run with the cart, and keep up with it, but not be ADDING any pressure - it would look like you are pushing it, but really you are just 'moving at the same pace'.

Don't confuse clubhead lag (moving at the same pace, keeping that clubhead trailing) - with lag pressure (adding 'push' - adding support).

In other words, if you can't keep up the speed to 'push the cart', you are going TOO FAST.

Remember - slow and heavy, feel PP#3

As soon as you give up lag pressure, you give up mass - you are 'bouncing' the club off impact, rather than 'supporting'.

This is true, hitting or swinging IMO, although you will feel it more directly in hitting.

Clubhead Lag is the clubhead trailing a bent shaft. Accumulator Lag is the amount of the Accumulator that has yet to be unloaded.

Good post. Ok, futher exploring this....

Are you saying then, a clubhead moving at 100mph with no support behind it will not hit the ball as far as a clubhead traveling 100mph with support behind it? Support being - the club attached to a golfer who is maintaining lag pressure thoughout the swing.

Resistance to Impact deceleration.(2-E) Remember the ball hits the club just as hard as the club hits the ball. Newtons third law (2-C-0).
I also think we should study Newtons second law with this thread.
More resistance to impact deceleration could result in a slower swing speed hitting ball further than faster swing speed.

Todd

Yes. Any amount of lag pressure represents mass, and any amount of mass will send the ball further than without that mass.

The kicker is that to get there, most people have to slow way down.

To feel like they are swinging 'in slow motion'.

Full swings, half tempo - 160 club to 100 yards

HEAVY club - driving downplane to both arms straight.

Taking a divot.

Split grip drills will let you feel both arms straight properly.

Aha! So that is what Yoda meant when he told me increasing the "effective mass" is critical.

It makes sense to me, especially after thinking through the physics of it.

Good thread!

By the way, how does it help to hit your 160yd club 100yds? And how do you turn around and apply it to a full shot?

i would say that if you are running faster than the cart and pushing it then you are accelerating the cart, if you are just keeping up with it you are not...same with the 100 mph clubhead, if you are pushing it to 100 mph, then you are still accelerating it, not just keeping up with it and it is the acceleration that is your "effective mass" and would cause the ball to go further

-hcw

"Are you saying then, a clubhead moving at 100mph with no support behind it will not hit the ball as far as a clubhead traveling 100mph with support behind it? Support being - the club attached to a golfer who is maintaining lag pressure thoughout the swing."

The answer is yes, but in a Swing using CF, the amount of support needed is only that from the left hand required to keep the butt of the club from backing up in the Impact Interval. Lag Pressure at PP #3 is only a passive feedback indicating that your Left Wrist is moving fast enough.

It helps because it is easier to get the sequence (lag pressure) properly, gravity can help show you 'effortless power'. What it actually does best is get the hands and 'center' moving through impact together - a 'result' that all good swings have. Ballards 'connection', but without 'trying'.

It is also a very effective way to check that the club is really 'swinging' and that you are totally balanced - hold your finish until the ball stops moving. Even if you are a hitter, the club must 'swing'.

Keeping the spoke straight from 'center' to PP1, extensor action is helpful here.

Nice post!

Good post! MJ, I know that you are a big fan of Trigger Delay and Snap Release. Do you think Accumulator Lag automatically translates to Clubhead Lag? Are the proportional in some way assuming no throw-away?

Did you see the pics of C. Howell in Golf Magazine? Looks like he's moved away from Lead's attempts to "de-Lag" him . . . assuming the pics weren't taken pre-Lead. There are couple of incredible pics. He seems to be the poster-boy for #3 Lag.

Thanks!

Richard

I haven't seen the Golf Mag pics, but will take a look at the mag rack tonight. I assume you meant to say he is a poster boy for #2 Lag. You must have Clubhead Lag to provide a stressed shaft before Impact, in order to resist the ball collision and maximize Separation speed.

Even if you maintain LW Cock deep into a late Release, if LW speed is too slow in the pulley section, you can lose Clubhead Lag and hit the ball with an unstressed shaft. It feels like hitting a rock vs hitting a dandelion.

Can the tortoise beat the hare?
 

MJ,

Duh. Correct #2 Lag. Check out the magazine. I know CH is your boy. There are some very good pictures. You can see the #2 Lag as well as the stressed Clubshaft. You will like the pics.

If we assume that a big guy Drive Loading like Stads hits it the same distance as CH (which may not be a good assumption), are the both generating the same amount of "stress" or "load" in the shaft? I guess one via Mass and the other via Velocity? Or is stressing the shaft one thing and clubhead speed another both translating into distance in a different way?

Thanks!

R

Depends on how slow the hare is.
 

12p,

I don't believe a Hitter can approach the distances of the longer Swingers like Woods, Kuehne, etc. Even if the Hitter gets the highest possible Separation Velocity of 80% of Impact Velo because of the steady thrust, the 125+ Impact Velos of the Swingers are too much to overcome.

Re: Depends on how slow the hare is.
 

Gotcha. Is this greater velocity due to more Trigger delay in combination with CF? Do you swing exclusively? Just curious. I have a lot of respect for you opinions and knowledge. I'm hitting mostly now, but prior to TGM I was exclusively an undiagnosed Swinger.

Maybe enough MASS for now! We started this thread with Mass. Now on to other factors.

ENERGY: the capacity to do WORK
WORK: changing the state of something (FORCExDISTANCE)
FORCE: The cause, or agent, that puts an object at rest into motion or alters the motion of a moving object. (Webster) FORCE=MASSxACCELERATION
ACCELERATION: The rate of change in the Velocity of a moving object.(Webster)
A=DISTANCE divided by TIME squared

WHERE IN THE SWING DO THE LONGEST HITTERS HAVE THE GREATEST ACCELERATION? How do they accomplish this?

Re: Depends on how slow the hare is.
 

It's clear from watching guys like Woods and Kuehne that their velo is NOT just due to a delayed release of #2. In Woods case, his shoulder thrust gets a turbo boost from unbelievable hip rotation. Since going to a big headed driver with 45" shaft, he is leading the tour in distance with a swing he describes as "wide and tight".

I use Hitting only with the shorter irons and putter.

lagster,

"WHERE IN THE SWING DO THE LONGEST HITTERS HAVE THE GREATEST ACCELERATION? How do they accomplish this?"

Do you mean the greatest clubhead speed? That's an interesting question. I have read that the max velo happens before Impact even in the best swings. With all the tech available today, it seems like we should know for sure. Woods does it with hip rotation and shoulder thrust.

What is your reference to mass about? I think that if you could model Woods with a stick man made of titanium, weighing say 30 lbs, and it's hips and right shoulder, etc. moved just like Woods, the ball would go the same distance.

MizunoJoe,

Acceleration is a little different than velocity or speed. 8-9 SECTON 9, for example, is listed as the period of Clubhead Acceleration.

Now... HIP SPEED is another topic. That is interesting. I have heard that the fastest that the hips can turn is something like 7 MPH or so. So... how much does this actually contribute to one's CLUBHEAD SPEED?

At Release, the Clubhead acceleration period begins which gives the Clubhead it's speed.

Have you ever seen Wood's hip speed up close? It kick starts the Right Shoulder thrust. He does it just like Hogan says in Five Lessons.

[quote="lagster"]Considering the maximum hip speed, around 2mph from what I have read, and their limited range of motion, hip speed is not of no real consequence in the production of clubhead speed.

Fast moving hips (Tiger e.g) are only anecessity in order to clear a route for faster moving arms, which are the true speed generators; the right arm in particular.

The most powerful swings are ground-up motions in which the hip rotation initiates and aids the shoulder uncoiling. You can uncoil over a passive lower body, but it's not as powerful - the Faldo makeover by Leadbetter is a good example.

And, how does the Right Arm contribute to Left Arm speed in a Swinging Procedure using Accumulators 4, 2, and 3?

impact


releasing clubhead as late as possible while still getting back to the ball (ie mj's snap release)


-hcw

There is no such thing as "a ground up motion" - all golf swings are top to bottom motions with only reaction - or resistance - to the force generated being provided, and felt, from the ground up. Newtons third law - (paraphrased) all actions have an equal and opposite reaction.

I will answer your other question with a question of my own - do you know of anyone who hits a golf ball as far with his left hand only as he does with both hands on the club, be he a swinger or a hitter?

If you understand the action of throwing a ball, you'll understand what Burner is talking about....

It's interesting that 10-3-B reads, "a Right Forearm Underhand Pitch is delivered at the Aiming Point with a stiff-wrist slapping motion".

DG

KEEEE- RECT!

There's a reason why most tour players still insist on steel spikes, and it isn't because they have "top down" swings! Of course, you can do that and, like Faldo, lose 25 yds off the tee.

Joe, please.

Just go to the top of your backswing and move the club down and through the ball WITHOUT moving your arms.

You MAY USE your feet, ankles, knees, thighs or hips in any manner you wish in order to generate the force necessary to propel the clubhead down and through impact.

Let me know when manage it. :lol:

Seriously though, I reckon we will just have to agree to differ.

uh, now i don't hit the ball too straight, but i can throw better than most and i guarantee that the best throws start with the legs...just go watch a pitcher windup and start to the plate...pushes off with the back leg propelling the hips->shoulder->arm...the arm is the last thing accelerating in the chain, but it starts with the legs...

-hcw

it's not that you don't move your arms, it's that you don't move them with the muscles OF your arms until you've got the whole train started with your legs/hips...do this, take a club and address a ball, then lift the club straight in front of your face as if the ball were at shoulder level not the ground...keeping the clubshaft a shoulder level turn and wrap it as far back around you as you can by turning your hips, folding you trail arm (and you lead if you want), and cocking/bending your lead/trail wrists...then try and hit the imaginary ball (at shoulder level) as hard as possible (listen for the "swoosh" of the club)...a little experimentation will show that it's pretty obviously when you start with the hips to get the shoulders->arms->hands->clubhead accelerating...give it a try, but loosen up a little before you really give it your all and make sure you have plenty of room and you're not too close to something like, say, uh a freezer...no i don't wish to discuss why i made that last statement:-(

-hcw

hcw,

Nice post. And, I know all about being too close to stuff.

thanks...the good news is that i didn't hurt my 8-iron and only the aesthetics of the freezer:-)

-hcw

What you think you see and what is really happening can be two different things....in magic they call it an illusion.

DG

hcw,
Do you start your putting stroke with your feet, legs, hips, whatever? No; because there is no need for body movement in order to make a putt and that is because the arms can do their work without such assistance.

The upshot of all this is that the body reacts only to allow the arms to get to where they need to go on the backswing - the body neither generates or stores power in this process.

Same for the downswing, the body reacts in response to the downward movement of the club by the arms, providing resistance to, and support for, the force generated by the arms as they propel the club.

Any movement of the body that is perceived to precede the downward swing of the arms (as opposed to being coincident with it) is merely a positional, path clearing, procedure that facilitates the application of downward force rather than causes it.

DG, i'll assume you're talking about the pitcher throwing...i'll defer on TGM, but let me assure you i know how i throw and the ones that would go the farthest start FORWARD with the legs->hips->shoulders->arms...however, you left out the second paragraph of 10-3-B:

"The only real difference from 10-3-A is that the Right Elbow can lead the Hands into Release much farther with the same amount of Hip travel (6-B-1-C) and is therefore conducive to greater Trigger Delay (10-20) for Snap Releases (10-24)"

Mr. Kelley seemed to know the Hips had a role!:-)

-hcw

hcw,

Can you interpret for the class what Homer means by that paragraph....the more details the better....since this is the physics section, physics and/or biomechanical terms would suffice...

DG