That's what Pat Browne always told me.
:rolleyes:

finally some sleep
 

I'm feeling veeeerrrrryyyyy drowsy. ;) Thanks man.

right forearm flying wedge anyone?
 

We've got the same addictions, Bucket. I hope the new year brings you 13 pieces of chicken in every bucket. ;)

Advanced class: :cool:
As far as the bobbing goes, his right forearm position at address, even as a swinger, leaves few options. Read 7-3 until you wear out the ink on the page. Pay close attention to "Mandatory" and "Always, for all procedures." If the forearm position is "out-of-line" and assembles to become "in-line", something else has to change. Call me crazy, but simply changing someone's head doesn't address Loading and the Right Forearm. However, I do agree that he shouldn't have to look down his cheeks at the ball. He seeks the same "in-line" relationship that all great players seek (secondary lever system in support of the primary lever system with normal force), but you'll never see anything that resembles it at address.

Remedial class: :rolleyes:
right arm start straight
right arm bend to hit ball
right shoulder get close to ground

good stuff
 

Good eyes, Annikan.

"That's what Pat Browne always told me"--- Brian Manzella

You all obviously don't know who Pat Browne is. Better do your homework. I think Brian just "moongotchad"

A lot of mis-matched components
 

My set up was poor and I had a lot of mis-matched components. With TGM I learned how to set my head and right forearm position using impact fix. I also learned that mixing hitting and swinging components generally make things more difficult than they need to be.

Hey Ted,

I cannot agree more with you.

Disagreeing with Mr Kelly is like:

1)Saying that you can develop a better law of thermodynamics.
2)Saying that you could have developed a better law of electricity.
3)Saying that you could have developed a better law of gravity!!! (how about that!)

[-o<

Guess the only plane line he sees is in his mind ...Still has "Vision" whether or not it's physical...The Mac O'Grady quote was his...NOT MINE!!!

Besides..Blind or Not The Head and Neck Position influence the Hand Path ...Period He may not a have eye sight ..but I bet he's got fluid in his ears.....remember the balance centers not only include the eyes..but the ears and the muscular system as well.....

More Mystic Power than Dr. Strange
 

Teddy-Ballgame,

On the 12th day of Christmas my true love gave to me buttermilk soaked cajun fried bucket with thirteeeeeeeeen pieces!!!!

7-3 Truly is MAGICAL . . . so reconciling what you have positioned above without a down the line picture of Eldrick's address alignments. You are saying even as a Swinger Eldrick should set up with more bend in his Right Elbow thereby placing the Clubshaft and Right Forearm in the same plane i.e. Right Forearm Flying Wedge assembly at Address? This would solve the old Bobbing problem?

I like where you are headed with this . . .

7-3 STROKES BASIC . . . . With this “in-line” relationship of Loading and Right Forearm, it is absolutely MANDATORY that, Hitting or Swinging, it is the Right Forearm – not just the Right Hand and/or Clubshaft – that must be thrown, or driven, into Impact per 7-2-3. And study 7-11. ALWAYS, for all procedures, the Right Forearm is position “On Plane” – pointing at the Plane Line as the Angle of Attack (2-N). The On Plane Right Forearm shows the precise up-and-down direction it and the Clubshaft must take throughout the Stroke (2-J-3). The “Angle of Approach” position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact.

And just a lil'bit mo . . .

Even with the Pitch Basic Stroke. So the Right Forearm must leave – and precisely return to – its own Fix Position (7-8 ) “Angle of Approach” (regardless of the true Clubhead Angle of Approach) because both procedures will produce identical Clubhead Delivery Lines.

Am I smellin' watchu cookin'?

B

I like the last sentence on the page
 

"All of this you will come to know as THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM"

good sniffer
 

When Homer went to impact fix, his head dropped several inches. When he went back to adjusted address, his head didn't return. You could make a case that Eldrick starts from preliminary address. He does find the alignments at impact, as well as anyone in the world.

Flat-out disagreeing with him definitely is sketchy man....you just have to think about how much he knew....

But is anyone really flat-out disagreeing? It's just customizing...if it really comes down to it. I personally agree that one should strive to fit most of his recommendations....but that's not always the way it works....for lots of reasons.

I just think that Homer has never said you MUST do anything....except for 3 things....did he?

For the record...I do agree that one should strive for a Stationary Head....

the difference
 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...52/ai_76143272

Here's what some were taught and some still teach as a "source of power." It was a favorite of my previous instructor. Right eye over right foot. It's position golf at it's worst.

the search
 

I am on the search as all of us are for the truth. I have worked with MANY professionals, some were TGM'ers and some were not. BY FAR, I have received the best instruction available from TGM'ers. George IS a fine man and VERY knowledgeable. He helped me on my "guided struggle", and for that I owe him a great gratitude. Additionally, there is no denying the success that many under George have achieved.
My goal, as yours seems to be now (99% percent correctness, which I believe is an understatement), is to follow Homer's teachings. It would seem illogical for you to follow anyone else, if you believe the percentage. So the assertion that you make about the percentage and discipleship places you in the same boat as me. Welcome to your own argument. I'll answer the ridiculous question that you posed about whom I'll follow. I'll follow the guy that's as close to 100% correct that I can find. That would be Homer, and Lynn would be my fellow disciple, friend, and teacher.
Unfortunately, Homer is gone but his work is alive and is his legacy. The only reason that I follow Lynn's teaching is his willingness to expose Homer's work for the genius that it is. Lynn has a goal to share this knowledge with whomever will listen. If Lynn strayed from the book, he would no longer be a disciple of Homer's (it would be something of his own creation), he would no longer be my teacher, but he would still be my friend.
As far as George's hotlines and his computer applications, they are fantastic. None of this have I ever denied.
Back to the argument that is not about George. The argument is: To follow the teachings found in 1-L or not to follow the teachings found in 1-L. If you would like to support the case for the latter either geometrically or physically, I will give you my undivided attention. If you support the teachings found in 1-L, you are on Homer's team with me. End of argument.

A Gentleman's Game
 

Let the record show that Ted never mentioned the name, only the instruction that is clearly at variance with the Head location illustrated in the photo sequences of 9-1 and 9-2.

What is happening to her head ?
 

I apologise for not knowing the name of the lady in the photos.

Please compare the photos 8-3 through to 8-10.

I presume these are posed photos in a controlled environment to "model" correct movements. There is a small amount of head tilt to players right on the backswing ( using stationary ball as the fixed point) BUT by "Release" (8-9) there is the "appearance" of some forward head movement BUT by "impact"(8-10) the head has moved back to original position.

Is this "appearance" real ?

Is this the desired head movement?

Is this an oversight in these photos?

This may be more enlightening than comparing photos / video taken in a very uncontrolled environment.

Is it not possible to get some of the TOP swingers on this forum who regularly video swings to set out a standard manner of filming - eg. specific backdrop to swing with markings ( eg. grid) rather than laurel leaves etc ? and I mean for their swings down the line / face on etc using same backdrop. Maybe at one of the teaching seminars where you all get together?

Thanks for reading this, look forward to your comments.

ok luke so your saying from this article that some teachers study the way top players swing and teach these movements and that is wrong. i also guessing that alot of these players where probably studied hitting a driver these same players when hitting a wedge probably dont move there head much at all.

takin' it anatomically DEEP
 

I'm simply stating that the data given in the comparison are wrong. There are other factors here that lead to illusion. There is a hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord enters called the foramen magnum. The skull is oblong (not a perfect circle) and this hole is located BEHIND an ear to ear diameter. Additionally, the bones furthest forward in the skull are the front teeth. The nose is cartilage that protrudes even farther from the center of the head. Therefore, rotation around the spine, a single axis would cause the nose, as a point of reference, to move dramatically. The Stationary Post (a players head) may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob". And, this relationship does not look like a lollipop on a stick. The spine is not centered in the base of the skull. Rotation creates 'movement' if looking at the face. This is the lesser of the details.
The second is the ability for the head of the humerus (the top of the upper arm bone) to protract (to extend forward or the feeling of making your shoulders touch in front of your sternum). The shoulder is also on a concentric circle with the head or spine as the axis, which would be measurably further than the nose or face from the center of rotation. A common myth in golf instruction is that the shoulders turn as if they are a steel bar across the spine. It is NOT the case. Simply measuring an angle created by the movement (turning) of the left shoulder includes no portion for range of motion (protraction) created through extensor action. Seemingly, this angle would be created by turning the shoulders as much as possible with some 'head' movement ("sway"). WRONG! You lose double Jeapordy! Without the above mentioned considerations the article referenced earlier would seem to have merit. When my left shoulder is under my chin, my right shoulder is still very visible from a front view. This means a different degree of "turn" is happening in each shoulder.
Yoda's been very busy with people coming in from out of town, and without his help, I would have never seen these things. When he has time, he will post the DEFINITIVE post on 9-1-5. I'm anxious to see it. [-o<

Solid post Ted :D

Great Post....

I was hoping someone would respond in another thread with something like this regarding tripod, pivot, stationary head..

I know you move your left shoulder closer to the ball while the head, neck and right shoulder doesn't move at all. Try it, against a wall. Just move the left shoulder and all else remains in place.

One of the reasons I asked in an earlier post for a view from the back is specifically to address the illusions you get from viewing front on that disappear when viewing from the rear.

Paul Chek has some interesting diagrams based on his studies regarding alignment/posture, etc.

One other tidbit I came across is that the Rotational Axis, the anchor points are directly effected by the weight axis and are not the same axis. Posture is a key factor in what happens or appears to be happening.

Wow, Teddy, none of this is in Homer's book "The Golfing Machine," His 80 hours of audio, couple hours of video or notes.

Does this mean we can use other data in debate around this place?

I will say this—this post is harder to read than the book.

Anyway, here is a little common sense and some (easy to read) hard facts:

• The Spine is NOT in the middle of the torso, nor the middle of the head.

• The center of the spine is also not in the rear of the torso, nor the head.

• You can hit a golf ball at a world-class level with many different points used as the 'center of rotation.'

• You don't hit the ball on the backswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the hands take on the backstroke some, but change their path dramatically on the downswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the CLUBHEAD takes on the backstroke some, but change the CLUBHEAD path dramatically on the downswing.

• The bottom of the spine, the tailbone, moves all over dodge in a Stationary Head swing, as well as a bunch in other 'center of rotation' locations. On the downswing it has to move some to tilt the axis, and that movement has more than just a toward the target dimension for some plane lines.

• The center of gravity in the body (swing) is located well below the head in the lower torso area.

• Just as MORAD states, the head movement is obviously something that influences the pattern a great deal.

The point here Teddy, is that there is libraries full of data in biomechanics and other disciplines that would really muddy the water in the search for the PERFECT 'swing.' Homer had bunch figured out, but obviously not everything.

I teach a lot of people to have a perfectly steady head, because for them it works better.

But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong.

Thanks for your reply.

I was hoping that you would reference the photos in 9-1. They too show head movement( more than just head swivel) and your reference to 2-R is the key. Homer states that the photos were posed as expertly as he was able to achieve "as near to 'zero tolerance' as humanly possible". This is the key. Surely his intention is to try to achieve stable head but is aware that this cannot always be achieved ( even when the model is posed by Homer himself - let alone during a full swing).

NOW compare the conditions under which these photos are created with those that have lead to 10 pages of discussion!! Non tripod, non sequencial action photos!! One cannot draw ABSOLUTE conclusions from material of this quality. It may be all we have to work with but that does NOT mean we should therefore work with it - not if the level of conclusion you desire is proof for or against such "absolute" laws.

The real answer is get better data! THEN draw conclusions.

Minimal Compensations Please!
 

I remember the demonstration of a peice of string with weight tied to one end. You can move your hand in very tiny cirlces and spin the weight around and around in a circle. You can generate a ton of speed with very little movement of the hand.

BUT! The minute you start moving the hand laterally (ie, swaying) it kills the natural spinning motion of the weight and it slows down dramatically.

So while I wouldn't argue you can't hit a golf ball while swaying, it seems like you are robbing yourself of clubhead speed not to mention the inconsistency of trying to always sway back into the correct position to hit the ball. Swaying requires compensations.

So I guess the real question from the instructor's point of view is, if you have a talented athlete who hits the ball great with a swaying motion should you try to change it? And would you ever teach a swaying motion to someone who wasn't swaying?

Stated another way - should the instructor try to teach the student to have the fewest compensations possible? It seems this is the essence of TGM. Mr. Kelley never said you CAN'T have compenstations, but he did say you should strive to eliminate them to have the most effective stroke.

I have had a lot of instructors over the years that gave me band-aids and never attempted to teach me the correct alignmnets and a stroke with miminal compensations. I wasted my time and money on every one of them.

An Ideal Within Tight Tolerances
 

Exactly, Bob. Thanks.

The Chin Swing
 

Correct. The photos in 9-1 and 9-2 clearly illustrate that Head Rotation about an axis -- Johnny Miller called it a little 'chin swing' -- does not violate the concept of Stationary Head maintaining its position in space.

A Sway By Any Other Name...Is Still A Sway
 

Correct. That is the point that started this whole thread. If the Head and Upper Spine move to the right, you have Swayed. If they move up and down, you have Bobbed.

Yet the concept of a visible and unmistakeable lateral move of the upper torso is being taught in many quarters. It is geometrically incorrect and deserves the warning label Homer Kelley so justifiably applied.

Hula Hula
 

To my mind, this is one of Homer's great contributions. He identified the lateral Hip Shift as the source of the Weight Shift. Again, this is not the lateral Head and upper spine shift recommended by so many, but a Hip Shift. The Head maintains its Stationary position in space -- it can rotate responsively to the Turning Body in both directions and is not required to remain 'perfectly still' as some misinterpret -- as does the upper spine between the shoulders. Hence we have the complete independence of the Hip Motion from the Head and Shoulders and with it, the ability to Shift the Weight in both directions while maintaining a fixed Pivot Swing Center. In TGM parlance, we have 'Hula Hula flexibility.'

Pleeeeease Brian. =;

http://www.par543.com/videos/9dec05.avi

1-K: "There is no factor -- including Clubhead Throwaway -- that cannot, by proper assembly, adjustment, alignment, etc., be worked into a fairly effective Stroke Pattern for some application or other."

1-H: "There is little excuse for focing the average weekend golfer -- who has some strong tendency or other -- to adopt any procedure or Stroke Pattern that calls for the elimination of that tendency. It is far easier to develop a Stroke Pattern that properly compensates for it. Change the factors that are easily controlled to fit those that are difficult to change.

1-E: "The student must not expect to play a game with more precision than is built into it. But every student should achieve a commensurate degree of consistency and play with a satisfying assurance of competence to perform within these built-in limitations and that, at any time, the limitations can be reduced by merely increasing the precision of all or any part of the present game."

Ok, Leo.

I think I made my point.

When you have been reduced to "some guy in Louisiana" who isn't teaching TGM, you have to stand up or run.


Lynn,

Couldn't agree more on the Homer concept of weight shift. One of his top 5 "greatest hits."

The Playing Field
 

One of the basic tenets of 'how to study' TGM lies in how to interpret the photos accompanying a given discussion. On this point, Homer Kelley was adamant (2-R):

"The picture presents the subject only as noted in the written discussion and is not intended as a reference regarding any of the other aspects or subjects which the picture may include incidentally."

In other words, don't be looking at her Foot position if the discussion is about the Hips. Or the Knees if it is about Delivery Path. I have said many times, "If the subject is Right Anchor Knee Action, and she is hanging from the ceiling with her Right Knee bent, then the photo accurately depicts the point under discussion."

This is the point missed in the quoted reference to the photo sequence in Chapter Eight. The photos depict only the twelve sections of the stroke and their boundaries. That is the constraint of any analysis, and any other Component relationships depicted -- Feet, Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Head, whatever -- are incidental and therefore not to be relied upon for their accuracy.

wow! right back at ya
 

"Wow, Teddy, none of this is in Homer's book "The Golfing Machine," His 80 hours of audio, couple hours of video or notes."

You apparently missed his statement about the volumes of books that could be written to compliment TGM, not re-define it.

"Does this mean we can use other data in debate around this place?"

I'll listen to anything that you post, if it can be substantiated by geometric or physical data. Not just because Brian told me so.

"I will say this—this post is harder to read than the book."

I find people in this forum to be very intelligent with the ability to read.

"The center of the spine is also not in the rear of the torso, nor the head."

It’s behind the center of the head, as stated.

"You can hit a golf ball at a world-class level with many different points used as the 'center of rotation.'"

The point should be close to the top, not the pelvis. You can teach the Y factor if you'd like.

"You don't hit the ball on the backswing."

But, you prepare to do so. I guess we can start teaching people to start from top or end, as a top instructor suggested a few years ago.

"The bottom of the spine, the tailbone, moves all over dodge in a Stationary Head swing, as well as a bunch in other 'center of rotation' locations."

Seemingly not, when using the Y factor.

"The center of gravity in the body (swing) is located well below the head in the lower torso area."

Here, we are talking about the physics of rotation, not CG. So here's a little more information that’s too hard to read:
If you understand CG and understand the way to calculate it, you would understand that CG doesn't always have to be inside the body.
For objects with symmetry, the center of gravity is always located along the axis of symmetry. Do you teach many symmetrical people?
(Def. of symmetrical: EXACT correspondence of form and constituent configuration on opposite sides of a dividing line or plane or about a center or an axis)

"The point here Teddy, is that there is libraries full of data in biomechanics and other disciplines that would really muddy the water in the search for the PERFECT 'swing.' Homer had bunch figured out, but obviously not everything."

The point here Brian, is that there ARE (not is) libraries. And secondly, it would be a great service to us and everyone else in the world if you would write a book about all the things that Homer got wrong (with supporting empirical data).

"I teach a lot of people to have a perfectly steady head, because for them it works better."

It may sadden you that we agree on something.

"But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong."

As far as "you are wrong", pointing fingers is childish and non-substantive. "Totally still head" is your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the posts that you've read. Read them again. Lynn and I teach anything and everything that's in TGM. Some components are "recommended", some are said to be "extremely hazardous". I have the ability to teach the more complicated of the two, if you'd like. But, SELDOM does anyone ask for that.

I eagerly await all of the mysteries that you will reveal on the list of things that Homer got wrong. Lynn Blake will always be one to teach all of the things that Homer got right. Additionally, TGM is the unwavering foundation of OUR teaching, not just a tool.

10-0: "The aim of every player should be an Uncompensated Stroke - no faulty elements needing to be counteracted or offset."

EVERY TIME I think I backed up enough for Teddy to be happy, he attacks.

Get ready Teddy. Get ready.

3-A Translation of Instruction . . .This book presents the “uncompensated” Stroke as a goal, guide and progress report, not as the minimum entrance test.

Ok Ted (and Lynn)...

I will try to make this easy for readers (and for me)...

What exactly do you teach? Please answer each separtately. I will do the same.


Where should the HEAD be at address? Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone? Do you make any exceptions?

What should the HEAD do during the swing? Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone? Do you make any exceptions?

Thanks,

Brian :)

Kids - Some Never Change - They Just Grow BIGGER...
 

Ted (not Teddy),

This is such an enlightening post. It brings to mind the kindergarten class I used to teach during Sunday schools in church.

There was a kid who would, unprovoked, go challenge other kids with:

Kid: "My daddy is better and stronger than your daddy."
Other kids: "Really? Show em' to us."
Kid: "Oh yes, (pointing finger), my daddy is better than all yer daddies."
Other kids: "Really? Show em'"
Kid: "He is the BEST."
Other kids: "(whispering...), let's just humor him, else he won't quit yapping. Ok, your daddy is the BEST."
Kid: ~(smug grin)~

I guess some kids never change, they just grow BIGGER...

Just answer the questions...

These are my (Brian Manzella) answers to the above questions.

This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.

What better way to start a review than to state your case—one more time—to the readers.

Where should the HEAD be at address?
In general, I position the golfer to be tilted from the hips enough to get the belt line close to pointing at the ball. I then create what I call “golf arms”: slightly inward rotation with the right forearm on plane. I guess I am setting the wedges, but to be honest, I prefer Standard Address for most players, so the left arm wedge is really not ‘set.’ From there the right hand being lower on the club takes care of any slight axis tilt.

I then place the ball in whatever ball position I am using for that golfer, and wherever that ‘puts’ the head, that’s where I leave it.

I never, ever put the head some place, just to have it there.


Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
No.

Do you make any exceptions?
For someone needing help to get to the inside-aft quadrant for whatever reason, I position the tailbone a bit closer to the target and then the head slightly to the right to maintain the same ‘balance.’

For the golfer needing to swinging to far to the right, I position them slightly the other way.

These are not absolutes though. I’ll create an address that helps the player with the pattern, like pre-turned hips, etc.


What should the HEAD do during the swing?
It should move as little as possible. But I really don’t want the base of the neck to move at all.

Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
Nope.

Do you make any exceptions?
All the time.

First, slicers have—in general—horrible pivots. Their head moves forward and tilts left, the hips slide way right, the shoulders turn way to steep. Once I fix the clubface, they now have a new need, to hit the inside-aft quadrant. To get them to do this, I fix the address position and then observe their ‘new’ pivots. It will often still need lots of work. This work requires—almost always—a more Standard Hip Turn, and a Flatter Shoulder Turn. If they STILL can’t make a backswing pivot that allows for them to come right down plane, I get them to turn around their spine, which 99% of the time, requires some head movement to the right on the backswing—but next to ZERO base of the neck movement. A classic shoulder turn takeaway, you might want to call it.

Hookers almost always need the opposite, they really to turn less and less flat. They have developed those problems trying to swing more out to right field, to “play” their hook. These golfers need the clubface/leakage issues addressed, but often I will fix the plane line first. This process is always sped up by creating less axis tilt, more forward ball position and the resultant more centered head.
These golfers need a steeper shoulder turn, less hip turn, etc. and they are almost always helped by a right forearm pickup, delayed hip turn, and less axis tilt on the downstroke.

Again, these are not absolutes at all, just generalities. I ALWAYS let the imperatives dictate the components and all the parts of the pattern.

I've followed this discussion since the beginning. I would give the following analogy. HK said any plane shifts were extremely hazardous and I feel this reasoning could be applied to the tripod, whether it be the head or the top of the spine.

ldeit

How much of the weight shift is just the Arms and Club moving from the center of the body to either side of it?