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12 piece bucket 11-25-2008 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 58122)
One comment on the release of PA#4.

When one thinks of the purpose of releasing PA#4 in a swinger's action, the purpose is to get the left arm moving at a certain speed in the downswing. If the left arm moves at a certain speed, and PA#2 and PA#3 release efficiently then one has a perfect swinger's action from a power perspective.

Now, consider the timing of the release of PA#4. If one has an assertive right shoulder thrust turn at the start of the downswing, with a rapid shoulder deceleration pattern, then the left arm will leave the chest wall at an early point in the downswing. That can be seen in that posted video of VJ Singh's swing.

By contrast, Hardy OPS golfers are encouraged to turn their torso very aggressively at the start of the downswing and to ABT (always be turning). They therefore do not have the upper torso deceleratory pattern seen in VJ Singh's swing, and therefore their left arm remains in contact with the chest wall for much longer during the downswing. However, they hit the ball very well because their left arm travels at an appropriate speed during the downswing, and they release their PA#2/3 well.

Here is link to an excellent Hardy OPS golfer - Jeff Ritter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu-wDdY8-g4

Here are series of capture images of his downswing, which demonstrate that his left arm-chest wall angle remains acute until very late in his downswing - due to his very active shoulder rotation. Note where his right shoulder is situated in image 3 and compare it to VJ Singh's swing. There is a huge difference.



I think that the time point of PA#4 release depends on the pivot motion pattern and different golfers have different PA#4 release patterns (eg. equivalent to a sweep, random, or late release of PA#2).

Jeff.
Jeff . . . . This is a TOTALLY different deal for VJ and this cat. Just simply look at where their hands are respectively at the top . . . this OPS dude is no question releasing number 4 too . .. . you can see it how the right shoulder hasn't moved down much but the left arm has . . . . here's a down the line . . . . his #4 has to move faster for the club to stay on plane due to where his hands are . . . his hands basically match at the top and the finish.

I'd say #4 has more to do with Plane than Pivot . . . both must comply to the selected plane and where the hands are in-space inorder to keep them there. VJ has to cover WAY more distance to keep his hands in enough rather than them flying out over the plane. And there's more "out" in the other dudes deal from the top vs. VJ who has more "down" to cover.

golfbulldog 11-25-2008 03:38 PM
Release of acc.4 is about left arm above nipple line going to below nipple line rather than keeping something under left armpit.

Look at Hogan (the model for Hardy 1PS as I understand it):



Quite alot of room in between chest and left arm.

Seperate issue...no real attempt to threadjack....Looking at Jeff Ritter in photo 3 - he has rotated the clubface off the inclined plane (ie. sweetspot plane seperate from shaft plane ...unlike at top/end) and still appears to have quite alot of wristcock....he has a FLW from top ...and is onplane. Do people think that he is releasing 2+3 simultaneously....releasing 3 before 2....or something else....if he "cupped" his left wrist at top and start down...what would happen?...

12 piece bucket 11-25-2008 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 58129)
Release of acc.4 is about left arm above nipple line going to below nipple line rather than keeping something under left armpit.

Look at Hogan (the model for Hardy 1PS as I understand it):



Quite alot of room in between chest and left arm.

Seperate issue...no real attempt to threadjack....Looking at Jeff Ritter in photo 3 - he has rotated the clubface off the inclined plane (ie. sweetspot plane seperate from shaft plane ...unlike at top/end) and still appears to have quite alot of wristcock....he has a FLW from top ...and is onplane. Do people think that he is releasing 2+3 simultaneously....releasing 3 before 2....or something else....if he "cupped" his left wrist at top and start down...what would happen?...
Could be trying to cut it . . . . you got the #4 piece right.

golfbulldog 11-25-2008 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 58131)
Could be trying to cut it . . . . you got the #4 piece right.
Bucket, you got me thinking as usual...if you are planning to use a specific hinge action to alter ball flight...at which stage of the swing does one's pattern show the fact that you are using a specific hinge?

ie. do all back and downswing looks the same until the hinge? (albeit with the hinge mentally programmed before downswing).

Is the hinge action "supposed" to be evident in the backstroke??

Back on topic...this is one of KOC's great videos... although it does demo a very special musical taste that he has developed! it also shows a great view of accumulator 4 release and the long journey that the hands take whilst leaving the right shoulder behind....right shoulder continues movement but less that during the initial start down. Seems to have very little overlap between acc 4 release and acc 2 release...no? ( at about 1:01 mins)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj_GVe61LZo

Jeff 11-25-2008 06:23 PM
Golfbulldog

You wrote-: "Looking at Jeff Ritter in photo 3 - he has rotated the clubface off the inclined plane (ie. sweetspot plane seperate from shaft plane ...unlike at top/end) and still appears to have quite alot of wristcock....he has a FLW from top ...and is onplane. Do people think that he is releasing 2+3 simultaneously....releasing 3 before 2....or something else."

You need to understand the differences between the standard swinger's swing (ala Tiger Woods or Anthony Kim) and the Hardy OPS swing. In the standard swing, there is a takeaway swivel action that gets the club toe to be straight-up at the end of the takeaway. Then there has to a release swivel action to reverse the process. By contrast, a Hardy OPS golfer keeps the clubface facing the ball during the takeaway and there is no start up swivel action. Their clubface is relatively closed to the clubhead arc throughout the swing. Therefore, during the downswing, there is no release swivel action - PA#3 doesn't have to rotate that much into impact because the clubface is closed to the clubhead arc during the downswing. In that sense, they are similar to hitters - who does not incorporate a startup swivel action and release swivel action in their swing pattern.

Jeff.

mb6606 11-25-2008 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 58129)
Release of acc.4 is about left arm above nipple line going to below nipple line rather than keeping something under left armpit.

Look at Hogan (the model for Hardy 1PS as I understand it):



Quite alot of room in between chest and left arm.

Seperate issue...no real attempt to threadjack....Looking at Jeff Ritter in photo 3 - he has rotated the clubface off the inclined plane (ie. sweetspot plane seperate from shaft plane ...unlike at top/end) and still appears to have quite alot of wristcock....he has a FLW from top ...and is onplane. Do people think that he is releasing 2+3 simultaneously....releasing 3 before 2....or something else....if he "cupped" his left wrist at top and start down...what would happen?...
Wow what a flying wedge and arched left wrist - no chance to bend the left wrist from that alignment.

12 piece bucket 11-25-2008 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 58134)
Golfbulldog

You wrote-: "Looking at Jeff Ritter in photo 3 - he has rotated the clubface off the inclined plane (ie. sweetspot plane seperate from shaft plane ...unlike at top/end) and still appears to have quite alot of wristcock....he has a FLW from top ...and is onplane. Do people think that he is releasing 2+3 simultaneously....releasing 3 before 2....or something else."

You need to understand the differences between the standard swinger's swing (ala Tiger Woods or Anthony Kim) and the Hardy OPS swing. In the standard swing, there is a takeaway swivel action that gets the club toe to be straight-up at the end of the takeaway. Then there has to a release swivel action to reverse the process. By contrast, a Hardy OPS golfer keeps the clubface facing the ball during the takeaway and there is no start up swivel action. Their clubface is relatively closed to the clubhead arc throughout the swing. Therefore, during the downswing, there is no release swivel action - PA#3 doesn't have to rotate that much into impact because the clubface is closed to the clubhead arc during the downswing. In that sense, they are similar to hitters - who does not incorporate a startup swivel action and release swivel action in their swing pattern.

Jeff.
Pretty much the difference between Single Wrist Action and Standard Wrist Action . . . .



10-18-A STANDARD With this procedure with Wrist is Turned and Cocked (FCT) during the Backstroke which requires that it be Rolled and Uncocked during the Release. Only where this procedure is used, do the Hands “Swivel” into Hinge Action Position. Study 4-D-0.

LEFT WRIST ACTION

10-18-B DOUBLE This procedure is identical to –A above (Standard ) except that the Left Wrist is in a Double Cocked position (Cocked and Bent). It is restricted to true Centrifugal Force Swings (6-B-3) because its reverse rotation during Release – return to the Flat and Vertical Left Wrist – inhibits Clubhead Throwaway.

10-18-C SINGLE Here, the Left Wrist is Cocked but not Turned. The Action has three alternative procedures:
1. Let the Pivot bring Horizontal Hinging to a normal On Plane “Top” position.
2. Let the Pivot bring Angled Hinging to a normal On Plane “Top” postion.
3. Hold the Wrist – “Vertical” throughout for a True Single Action “Top” position.
Because there is actually NO HAND MOTION during the Stroke, the Clubhead Fix alignment remains undisturbed.



Looks like this cat has single wrist action going on all the tops look pretty much the same unless there is some arching or double cocking going on.

12 piece bucket 11-25-2008 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 58133)
Bucket, you got me thinking as usual...if you are planning to use a specific hinge action to alter ball flight...at which stage of the swing does one's pattern show the fact that you are using a specific hinge?

ie. do all back and downswing looks the same until the hinge? (albeit with the hinge mentally programmed before downswing).

Is the hinge action "supposed" to be evident in the backstroke??

Back on topic...this is one of KOC's great videos... although it does demo a very special musical taste that he has developed! it also shows a great view of accumulator 4 release and the long journey that the hands take whilst leaving the right shoulder behind....right shoulder continues movement but less that during the initial start down. Seems to have very little overlap between acc 4 release and acc 2 release...no? ( at about 1:01 mins)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj_GVe61LZo
Hinge Action can definitely be evident in the backstroke . . . of course Homer said that you can clown the takeaway . . . .

But as far as hinging goes . . . the bottom line is the ball starts basically at right angles to the face at separation so if you want to hit a cut that starts left of the target and curves back to it the face has to be looking looking left of the target to get the initial direction right. You can hit cuts or draws with ANY hinge action.

Jeff 11-26-2008 12:02 AM
12PB

I find that 10-18-C description very interesting and very new to me - as it implies that there is horizontal/angled/vertical hinging actions in the backswing. I cannot understand this biomechanical phenomenon. Does HK describe the biomechanics of backswing hinging actions? I can understand the followthrough hinging actions as being due to a variable degree of external humeral rotation happening at left shoulder socket level, and I can conceptualize the biomechanical process.

However, what is happening biomechanically if hinging actions are actually occurring during the backswing?

Jeff.

12 piece bucket 11-26-2008 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 58143)
12PB

I find that 10-18-C description very interesting and very new to me - as it implies that there is horizontal/angled/vertical hinging actions in the backswing. I cannot understand this biomechanical phenomenon. Does HK describe the biomechanics of backswing hinging actions? I can understand the followthrough hinging actions as being due to a variable degree of external humeral rotation happening at left shoulder socket level, and I can conceptualize the biomechanical process.

However, what is happening biomechanically if hinging actions are actually occurring during the backswing?

Jeff.

Could be wrong about this but . . . . I think Homer's thinking was . . . as she goes back she comes down . .. not sure though.

There are plenty of mix and matchers though . . . generally standard wrist action is for the swinger . .. but Nicklaus was as single wrist action swinger I believe.

Not sure about the biomechanics of it all . . . . but I prefer more of a "quiet" face . . . . but many times the grip, how the face is set at address/fix and the intended trajectory/shape can dictate the required hand motions.

Example . . . .Lee Trevino type set up with the shaft leaning and face looking left would have to get more lean in order to have the face open enough not to hook it between his legs. So lots of it has to do with how you have the face and where you want the ball to start out. Dudes with shutty faces can't do too much standard wrist action . . . or at least ones that you've actually heard of . . .


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