Originally Posted by denny (Post 49511)

Homer also said that the golf swing was a ""multi stage rocket"".
You want to have a concentric arc swing(rhythm) . The pace is set by stage 1 of the rocket ----the pivot . The shoulders move best at rt angles to the spine with the necessary spine releases and axis tilts(to keep a stationary head).
Seems to me that many of us leave our power package behind because we are "drop sliding" because we were taught to drive are legs.
David Williams said in the book The Science of the Golf Swing that the hips should not get out of the way but rather an integral part of the gear effect that delivers the arms and club.
The leader of this symphony is the brain hand relationship,_--(minds)eye hand coordination

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49515)

D,

What does concentric arc mean? Concentric in relation to what?

If we shouldn't drive the legs . . . what is the alternative/more effective procedure?

Thanks!

boooookaaaay.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49522)

Bucket,

This may come as no surprise to you, but I find your thread confusing.

I view the pivot as a movement, or action.

Given that, what do you mean by fundamental alignments of a movement?

Too many variables. Please break it down into finer pieces, so we can
understand what you want to get to here.

I see Lynn's gyroscope starting point, and am familiar with flywheel action concept. If you want to hit draws or straight shots, you never want the club to cross the line until impact. I am not sure how you define alignments in this type of action. Please enlighten me.

Thanks for the email the other day, also.

Moon pies and RC's to ya!

UPP in freezing Ohio

Originally Posted by Clay Huestis (Post 49530)

Mr. Bucket,

Good topic...so good that VJ Trolio wrote an entire book about it!

What do you think about his ideas on the pivot, namely that the role of the pivot is to get the body's center of gravity over the left leg (and in front of the ball), and then to unwind?

At this point . . . this is what my golf game is ALL ABOUT.

But for everyone's benefit . . . What is the body's center of gravity?

The closer the mass is to the axis of rotation, the easier it is to rotate. Of course the forward hips and the stationary head create secondary axis tilt that allows the right shoulder to come down on plane as well, which seems to me to be another very important job for the pivot to do.
Good thought but another question is WHEN does the right shoulder come down? Right away? Late? Does it have anything to do with the Plane Angle the club is complying to? Do you tilt and spin? Or just tilt?

Isn't MORAD quite into the idea of the COG getting on to the left side, and the power is generated mainly from body rotation? Of course they skin that cat a bit differently than Mr. Trolio.
There are from what I have seen 3 deals . . .

1. Move away and a back left
2. Turn shoulders steep and STAY left and go MORE left.
3. Keep the head steady, shoulders flat, and go left

From my personal experimentation with his ideas and others I have studied, the important jobs for the pivot are:
1. Get the weight LEFT in preparation for or during the downswing.
This is what Bucket tries to do.
2. Allow the right shoulder to get downplane
The quest is when? And how much?

3. Allow the body to rotate as fast as posible and thus transfer that rotation to the power package
Another good component . . . When is fast?

Another question for you...does the pivot stop on its own (i.e. runs out of gas), or should we be doing something conscious to slam on the brakes and transfer the momentum further down the kinetic chain?
Define kinetic chain?

I know you have been doing a lot of thinking and studying about this topic so I am curious to see what you think!

I'm still working on what I think . . . but I think I'm getting closer to thinking what I think when I think what I think at least when I think about what I think.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49532)

Good work . . . I sort of answered and sort of didn't . . . not to dodge . . . because some of this crap I don't know yet.

But for everyone's benefit . . . What is the body's center of gravity?
I personally am going for the definition in VJ Trolio's book, that it is just below the belt buckle, but closer to the back than the front, round about the spine I imagine. Of course he says that is a simplification, it depends on the position of the body at any given moment, but in general I like simplifications. I know MORAD goes much more in depth on this, but I don't really know how they define the COG or COGs.

Good thought but another question is WHEN does the right shoulder come down? Right away? Late? Does it have anything to do with the Plane Angle the club is complying to? Do you tilt and spin? Or just tilt?
Well, I think in a VJ Trolio "secret" type swing, the right shoulder is ready to be on plane right at the beginning of the downswing....in a MORAD swing, they work the left shoulder even lower and more forward, so it comes later. In my limited tinkering, this is a move that gives me fits, I find the Trolio move much easier to implement. But in the MORAD guys who can do it, it is clear their variation works as well. It's all about options, that's the beauty of it.

There are from what I have seen 3 deals . . .
1. Move away and a back left
2. Turn shoulders steep and STAY left and go MORE left.
3. Keep the head steady, shoulders flat, and go left
At the moment, I have the most success with 1 as well. A little bump right, then get waaay left waaay early. I am a big convert to getting onto the left leg and rotating from there. Suppose it doesn't matter when you do it, but it is the biggest "discovery" I have made in a long time. Of course, I was brought up as a Jimmy Ballard right sider, so it took me a long time to embrace the LEFT. Once again, I am attracted to the idea of number 2, as the MORAD guys present a nice theory, but as of yet I can't quite get the hang of it consistently.

1. Get the weight LEFT in preparation for or during the downswing.
This is what Bucket tries to do.
2. Allow the right shoulder to get downplane
The quest is when? And how much?
Once again, for me it works better getting that right shoulder down plane as early as possible. However, if I could do it, I might get more power by delaying the right shoulder down plane and maximizing speed closer to the ball, but at the moment I can't really say.

3. Allow the body to rotate as fast as posible and thus transfer that rotation to the power package
Another good component . . . When is fast?
I kinda answered this above, but I would say the MORAD answer is, faster later...but for me it works better just getting in postion at the top and then unwinding hard. Less things to think about, too!

Another question for you...does the pivot stop on its own (i.e. runs out of gas), or should we be doing something conscious to slam on the brakes and transfer the momentum further down the kinetic chain?
Define kinetic chain? I would say the kinetic chain is the movement of the hips speeding up then slowing down and passing the momentum to the shoulders, which in turn speed up then slow down as they pass it along the line to the arms, hands, and club. The more snap you give it, and the later you can snap it, the better. I think a "snappier" pivot leads to a smaller pulley, more delayed release, etc. etc. But I don't know whether the proper pivot just snaps itself or if a conscious braking needs to take place. I would guess it is a feel that is individual for each golfer.

Originally Posted by Clay Huestis (Post 49536)

I know you're not dodging, Bucket. I'm interested in hearing your experiences because I see you asking a lot of the same questions I have been thinking about recently. I will respond to your bits and pieces with my own bits and pieces, maybe between the two of us it will makes sense, at least to ourselves!

Originally Posted by Clay Huestis (Post 49530)

Mr. Bucket,

Good topic...so good that VJ Trolio wrote an entire book about it!

What do you think about his ideas on the pivot, namely that the role of the pivot is to get the body's center of gravity over the left leg (and in front of the ball), and then to unwind? The closer the mass is to the axis of rotation, the easier it is to rotate. Of course the forward hips and the stationary head create secondary axis tilt that allows the right shoulder to come down on plane as well, which seems to me to be another very important job for the pivot to do.

Isn't MORAD quite into the idea of the COG getting on to the left side, and the power is generated mainly from body rotation? Of course they skin that cat a bit differently than Mr. Trolio.

From my personal experimentation with his ideas and others I have studied, the important jobs for the pivot are:
1. Get the weight LEFT in preparation for or during the downswing.
2. Allow the right shoulder to get downplane
3. Allow the body to rotate as fast as posible and thus transfer that rotation to the power package

Another question for you...does the pivot stop on its own (i.e. runs out of gas), or should we be doing something conscious to slam on the brakes and transfer the momentum further down the kinetic chain?

I know you have been doing a lot of thinking and studying about this topic so I am curious to see what you think!